Porsche accuses Nissan GT-R of cheating the "Ring":

[footie]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

ZR1 and ACR are rwd. At the Ring. Faster than the HEAVY 4wd GTR.

I don't think the GTR is THAT GOOD. I think the Porsches are THAT BAD.

Look at the wings on the Viper, and watch the video provided on it's lap. This thing is no road car in the same style as all of the others, it's got more in common with the LeMans racer than the stock Viper.

Can you serious say the same about the rest of the cars posting similar times to within 10~15s of it.

The true champion on my opinion is the ZR1 but it's a harder pick when you consider you can buy the GTR in the UK for £52K and the ZR1 costs £109K.

[Robin_NL]

@ Footie: Agreed. A Porsche GT2 is way too difficult to drive due to it's chassis/engine layout, oldtimer

Taking risks at the NS in the GTR as a fast driver rewards you with pace, easily(..almost) , doing the same thing in the GT2 and you're almost dead.

That's why I prefer a BMW CSL/ZR1(look at the NS laptimes) or even the mid engined Carrera GT...

So I think the 911 layout is outdated...sorry....

EDIT: It also depends on the driver. The one who is willing to take more risks+ experienced etc etc.

Difficult case... but I 'm not neutral anymore:GTR ftw....

Look grandpa is crying, 356(years old?) LOL nice car though:

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

ZR1 and ACR are rwd. At the Ring. Faster than the HEAVY 4wd GTR.

I don't think the GTR is THAT GOOD. I think the Porsches are THAT BAD.

OK. Point made.

Anecdotally, Danny Ongais, a race driver in the U.S. who was noted for taking crazy risks on track, had two things to say about his Porsche Turbo when asked his technique for driving it fast.

He said, "I don't drive my Porsche Turbo fast.", and "It takes three feet to drive a Porsche Turbo fast."

That said, give credit to the GT-R. Regardless of its actual power (figure it's making perhaps 10% more than the rating), it was designed from scratch to beat the Porsche Turbo, and in every direct comparison test I've read (even in those where the Porsche blew it away in a straight line), the Nissan was quicker on track, by generally well over a second per minute. With that in mind, and the Porsche currently showing a best of 7:38 at the 'Ring, what's so hard to believe about the 7:29?

Bruce

[jaeS4]

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...ID=57410&vf=12

"We didn't cheat with GT-R 'Ring time, says Nissan"

Nissan defends legitimacy of GT-R supercar's record lap time against suspicions raised by rival Porsche. By ANDREW HEASLEY in Paris.

Nissan has hit back at suspicions raised by Porsche this week that the record Nurburgring lap time set by the GT-R supercar was achieved in anything other than a standard showroom-specification car.

The matter has reached top brass at Nissan, with its European spokesman at the Paris motor show today confirming the matter has gone ''quite high'' up in the company.

A senior Porsche engineer, August Achleitner, who supervises the development of all 911 sports cars, sparked controversy when he told Australian journalists at the launch of the new 911 Targa in Verona, Italy, this week that they were unable to replicate the record 7 minute 29 second lap time that Nissan claimed the GT-R set in April.

In the hands of a Porsche chassis engineer, the GT-R was 20 seconds slower than a 911 GT2 and 16 seconds slower than a Porsche 911 Turbo.

Achleitner questioned whether the GT-R was running a standard set-up on road tyres or perhaps something more track-oriented.

“Quite simply we're not going to get into a war of words with Porsche,” said Nissan's European spokesman Neil Reeve. “The final word from us is that it was done on absolutely standard tyres which are available to customers in the showroom.They're not trick tyres – absolutely standard tyres, normal road tyres.

“The GT-R comes with Bridgestone and Goodyear (Dunlop). One tyre gives slightly better times around the 'Ring.

“We did it on Dunlop. They're available with the car,” he said.

He was at a loss to explain the disparity over the lap time differences.

“I don't know, honestly I can't explain. I don't think it's for us to explain how they didn't match our time,” Mr Reeve said.

“We absolutely maintain (that) Tochio Suzuki - the chief test driver on the GT-R program pounded thousands of laps - he got to know every inch of Nurburgring (circuit) and how the car performs on the Nurburgring and hence set that fabulous lap. More than that, I can't speculate. I can't explain why they couldn't match the time.”

“We maintain that ... nothing special was done to the car.”

He conceded that the controversy might play on the minds of potential GT-R buyers. Fast lap times of the famous 21-kilometre German circuit are increasingy being used by car companies for bragging rights over performance and engineering prowess.

“The people who'd buy a GT-R or 911 Turbo are not the type of people to make a purchase like that lightly. They going to do an incredible amount of research, they're going to read every single road test that's available in every magazine which is on the internet and they're going to draw their own conclusion. Will it put doubt in their mind? They might find it surprising. In our experience in Europe, the GT-R has widely matched, at least, if not beaten, the 911 Turbo on various track tests. They can draw their own conclusions.

“We think its performance speaks for itself,'' he said.

Reeve wouldn't rule out the possibility of a rematch for the world to see.

“We're considering our options. We're not saying more than that,” he said.

“This (Porsche's questioning of Nissan's claim) happened two days ago, it was a surprising thing to read in the press, it's important.

“But let's not blow it out of all proportion. We're not crying about it. We're not going to sook about it.

“I'm cheeky enough to say it's flattering that Porsche have bought themselves a GT-R and flown it to Germany, they want to try it. I guess that's some kind of stamp of approval.

“It's great to have the competition. We're absolutely proud of the GT-R. It's a fabulous sports car, really epic.

“The level of performance that it delivers is really so impressive for the price it's positioned at,” he said.

If nothing else, i'm impressed with Nissan's professionalism about this and they have been very civil and diplomatic, so far. I hope they do another test, even if they fail or succeed.

[Robin_NL]

@ Bruce:
It's weight(1700kgs)

[jaeS4]

Unless Porsche can prove their claim of 7:54 and comes out with some video and any actual recorded document of their "test", then their claim is bogus as well. At least Nissan has a video to prove it, the only questionable part is Nissan's HP rating, which is probably the only explanation how the GTR was able to accomplish 7:29. I think it's safe to say that it's not 485hp but more than likely about 540hp.

[Robin_NL]

+1

Which doesn't mean 541BHP but I guess 580/600.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

+1

Which doesn't mean 541BHP but I guess 580/600.

I would be a little shocked if it indeed turned out to be as high as 580~600hp, but wouldn't it be really cool if it did. All that power for the price of an M3.

Rock & Roll.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

@ Bruce:
It's weight(1700kgs)

"...in every direct comparison test I've read (even in those where the Porsche blew it away in a straight line), the Nissan was quicker on track, by generally well over a second per minute. With that in mind, and the Porsche currently showing a best of 7:38 at the 'Ring, what's so hard to believe about the 7:29?"

What part of this didn't you get?

Bruce

[Robin_NL]

It's weight. Did you read EVERY test in german carmags? EVERY test? A second per minute? WTF did that come from? Explain.

The Koenigsegg CCR did 7:34. GT2 7:33. Carrera GT 7:32. Talking about supercars with BHP and not that heavy. I almost forgot my favourite: Ferrari 430 Scuderia, 1350kgs, 510BHP, semislick tyres: 7:39.

So why does a 1700kg/480BHP GTR do 7:29? It's lighter than 1700kgs. It has more than 550BHP.For sure.

disclaimer: I love the GTR and 'm not very 911ish...


Gallardo SL sporttyres 7:46, Pagani Zonda F also 7:33.


According to SPORTAUTO. But who cares, the GTR still is a bargain, even though Nissan is lying about something, I forgive them

[ruff]

Originally Posted by devo

Give the facelifted tt PDK, 20-30 more ponies, a revised PASM and a more taut suspension and the disparity will lessen greatly. The GTR may still win out, but it'll probably be a coin flip; with the power to weight ratio favoring the tt and the weight distribution and, possibly, power application favoring the GTR.

Originally Posted by devo

Yes, the GTR is is thus far faster on the track, but in a straight line in basically any drag race other than from the dig, the 997tt just pummels that fat pig.

And the price of the 997 tt is?

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

It's weight. Did you read EVERY test in german carmags? EVERY test? A second per minute? WTF did that come from? Explain...

To my knowledge, I've never read a german car mag at all. Is there something special about German car mags?

I simply said where I've read direct comparison tests, the Nissan was always faster than the Turbo Porsche on track, even if it couldn't stay with the Porsche in a straight line.

In those tests on those tracks, the margin was significant. Two-minute laps, more than two seconds, three minute laps, more than three seconds. Is this somehow hard to understand?

If all this rigamarole on your part is to somehow indicate that the GT-R is underrated, power wise, you're a little late to that party. Pretty much everyone has agreed on that as of awhile back. Drag strip results indicate around 10% more power than stated by Nissan.

[devo]

Originally Posted by ruff

And the price of the 997 tt is?

Why would you ask a question that you already know the answer to? Everyone knows it's overpriced, but that doesn't matter if the owner is okay with the price. I'd rather own the 997tt for twice the price; even though it isn't that much higher. Or a Ferrari or Lambo for three times the price of the Nissan.

With that said, I'll ask one. And, the ugliest fockin sports car currently in production is?

I also have to say that I have a problem with people taking post bites and using them out of context to their advantage. It's kind of like bad news reporting.

On a side note, who is the time trialist in your avatar?

[devo]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

"...in every direct comparison test I've read (even in those where the Porsche blew it away in a straight line), the Nissan was quicker on track, by generally well over a second per minute. With that in mind, and the Porsche currently showing a best of 7:38 at the 'Ring, what's so hard to believe about the 7:29?"

What part of this didn't you get?

Bruce

Not trying to fuel this fire, but did I miss something? The last thing that I read was a qoute from Nissan's Chief Engineer, Mizuno, who said that a 7:29 was not a time that a stock GTR was capable of repeating. He said a 7:44 was more likely accurate and 7:5x's would be more common.

I would still believe it to be faster on the Ring than the tt, as stated in my previous posts.

[Robin_NL]

1700kgs/540BHP/semi's don't make a 7:29 at the Nordschleife. That GTR was lighter than 1700kgs or just what Devo^^^says.


7:29 IS impossible with the normal spec...

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

1700kgs/540BHP/semi's don't make a 7:29 at the Nordschleife. That GTR was lighter than 1700kgs or just what Devo^^^says.


7:29 IS impossible with the normal spec...

You are correct of course, the problem is Nissan has somehow convinced people it IS possible.

Nissan has a history of cheating the ring, they did it with the R33 as well.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by ruff

And the price of the 997 tt is?

I don't want to live in a world where 911 turbos are cheaper than Nissans.

[!Xoible]

u live in a world where 911 turbos perform less than Nissan... who knows, u might

[devo]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

1700kgs/540BHP/semi's don't make a 7:29 at the Nordschleife. That GTR was lighter than 1700kgs or just what Devo^^^says.


7:29 IS impossible with the normal spec...

In response to the first paragraph: I think it's both.

And the second: Which is just what Porsche has stated, yet all of the haters want to say that Porsche was diabolical about their assertions, when in fact all they did was go on record that something was amiss with Nissan's 7:29 claim, which most of us either knew or suspected anyway.

[devo]

Originally Posted by ///Mantis

u live in a world where 911 turbos perform less than Nissan... who knows, u might

Old news that the GTR outperforms the 911 on the track. The current tt wasn't designed as being a track car first. That doesn't cut it for me, but it's the truth.

The GTR doesn't have the might to stay with the tt in a straight line. And, you really have to dismiss Nissan's dual clutch. Porsche's PDK will offer better feel and will take back some time alone. So, at the least the transmissions are a wash.
You don't have to like the 911, but that doesn't mean that isn't more refined than the Nissan, which of course it is.

I almost bought a GTR and will admit that they look menacing in person, but I just couldn't write that check for something that didn't speak to me. It doesn't have, the I have to go to the garage to look at it @ 3 AM appeal to me. Frankly, it's not pretty.The quality is simply not up to the German standards. You do, in some sense, get what you pay for.

I want to know that when I hit that go pedal against a GTR at a traffic light, I won't be seeing it again until I choose to. Maybe afetr we stop the owner can tell that he it can run the Ring faster. Bragging rights, big deal.

[!Xoible]

all im saying is dont discredit the GTR and come off as snobby as you are right now. Sticky is saying he doesnt wanna live in a world the 911 is cheaper than GTR, that's pretty snobby shit.

just the fact that we're talking about a nissan vs. a 911 turbo that's an insult and a slap across Porsche's face. appreciate cars for what they are and what they offer, and give cedit where its due, and it definitely well deserved for the Japanese piece of engineering

[footie]

There seems to be a small minority of people here who feel that weight and power are the only important factors to producing an incredible lap time on the ring.

Oh, how wrong you are. Stating other models with more power and less weight does not make for the perfect track car or more importantly the perfect ring car. Maybe I throw one other car into the mix which either proves or disproves your opinion (it all depends on how you view things), the car in question is the Bugatti Veyron, it can out acceleration every other car and by quite some margin (a gap much greater than the 997tt or GT2 are capable of), it's got more power than any driver needs or knows what to do with and it actually can put almost all of it's power to the road almost all of the time and yet it's not the quickest, not by a long chalk.

Robin Hood listed all of these cars as examples, the Koenigsegg CCR did 7:34. GT2 7:33. Carrera GT 7:32. Talking about supercars with BHP and not that heavy. And his personal favourite: Ferrari 430 Scuderia, 1350kgs, 510BHP, semislick tyres: 7:39. How come the Veyron can't destroy all of these?

Simple, the car was neither design as an out and out racer, it's got too much power for the course in question and it's suspension can't cope with the type of road surface conditions that a track like the ring throws at it. What make you think that any of the others are any more suited to the circuit that the Veyron is?

So as you see, your logic doesn't always work as more power and even perfect weight balance can't always produce the perfect lap time. I remember stating this when people were using mathematics and PTW to estimate lap times on the ring, there are too many factors involved to get the formula 100% correct, it may work for most of them but not all. In fact let me add another example of how far this thinking is out, the M3 and the M3CSL, each had pretty similar PTW but while one (M3) worked to the formula, the other (M3CSL) didn't and by some margin. Two cars which on the surface looked identical but were over 30 seconds apart.


So what if the GTR is producing more power than it quotes, does that mean we will all demand them to reduce it to the quoted figures when the car is delivered, hell no. The car is plain and simply better at putting it's power to better use than any other in the corners and this has been proving in every test that has been conducted. Why can't you all agree this simple fact.