Car and Driver is, "Not crazy about the new M3."

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by rngrjag

Sorry, I disagree with the bolded language. Completely disagree. The problem is that they DIDN'T pull out all the stops. They took the easy way out with an eye to profits. No bespoke motor, turbo power, etc., etc. They are chasing sales volume not niche enthusiasts. Guess they'll leave that to the M2?

Jackwagons.

[FashionablyFast]

I think it's odd that there are so many threads about how bad the F8x is in the E9x forums. Doesn't threads involving the F8x belong in their forums?
...and they ALWAYS generate A LOT of posts and hits here.

So why do you guys think there are so many threads and posts about how terrible the F8x is on the E9x forum?

[Installsplus]

Originally Posted by sunsweet

The m4 has a fatal combination of numb steering (no hydraulics) and unpredictable throttle at the limit of adherence (RWD turbo). I believe bmw failed the car in those choices, not in its execution. If you screw up the architecture of a bridge it does not matter if the best builder builds it. If you drive it around town then it's just like a 335i, if you try a spirited drive the m4 has the lack of poise and short focus of an impatient teenager. The car can stupidly get the rear sideways but it's not in a glorified way, just silly and immature joyride way. Just like that donut video bmw marketing emailed. And it's what we are starting to hear from all those reviews now that the initial hype cloud is gone.

If you search for big names RWD turbo performance cars you will find none, because that's a troubled choice. ALL porsche turbo 911 are AWD, all merc turbo are AWD, all Audi turbo are AWD, the GT-R (turbo) is AWD.
One exception is the Ferrari Cali T. But Ferrari did a better job by making the available torque gear dependent, limiting it at the RPM low end except in higher gears trying to imitate ' a Naturally Aspirated car " response. Why imitate when you can have the real thing.

Well said!!!

[rngrjag]

Originally Posted by OhSoCal

I think it's odd that there are so many threads about how bad the F8x is in the E9x forums. Doesn't threads involving the F8x belong in their forums?
...and they ALWAYS generate A LOT of posts and hits here.

So why do you guys think there are so many threads and posts about how terrible the F8x is on the E9x forum?

Here we go...again... The new car is a marvel. Some of us are disappointed BMW abandoned the high-revving, N/A mantra. Never said the F8X was a BAD car. Once again, at least in my case, the disappointment lies in that fact that the the new car is forced induction, and based on an N55 base motor. Lest you think this is the "normal" internecine "new v. old" car, it's not. I had the E46 ///M3 when the E92 arrived on the scene and remember the squabbles to which you have previously referred. Lo and behold, oddly enough, many of the original bitches and "hatorade" launched against the e92 platform have proven to be correct. Heavier, not as pretty, more refined (some would say too refined), etc. etc. In hindsight, it may be that much of the "hate" now leveled against the F8X platform may prove correct as well. Just a thought.

[mjposner]

A lot of M2 love with the M4 hate, yet turbo, electric steering and piped in sound.....

[FashionablyFast]

Originally Posted by rngrjag

Here we go...again... The new car is a marvel. Some of us are disappointed BMW abandoned the high-revving, N/A mantra. Never said the F8X was a BAD car. Once again, at least in my case, the disappointment lies in that fact that the the new car is forced induction, and based on an N55 base motor. Lest you think this is the "normal" internecine "new v. old" car, it's not. I had the E46 ///M3 when the E92 arrived on the scene and remember the squabbles to which you have previously referred. Lo and behold, oddly enough, many of the original bitches and "hatorade" launched against the e92 platform have proven to be correct. Heavier, not as pretty, more refined (some would say too refined), etc. etc. In hindsight, it may be that much of the "hate" now leveled against the F8X platform may prove correct as well. Just a thought.

I'm not saying they're incorrect and I agree with a lot of it, plus I drove one which adds to this.

....to me, it seems like an insecurity because the new one is faster hence why it's flamed daily on this forum. I say this because I was also insecure about it so I explored that option. I drove two of them and yes, I confirmed to myself that they are indeed faster. But I also confirmed some of the gripes are true (steering, sound etc...) - but I also still think it's a pretty good car and most of the bashing it excessive. I drove it for myself and I formed the opinions on my own versus reading pages and pages of bashing on the internet. I found that in the end, keeping mine is the best option and I'm glad I drove the F8x's.

Yes, this reaction occurred in the E46 forums too when the E9x came out and as you also pointed out, they're mostly correct about the criticisms about the E9x...but guess what? We still love our cars, so why don't we let the F8x guys love their cars too?

No choice but to accept that the new one is different because it's already here (love it or hate it). It's not like ours will all melt away....we still have ours and we love ours for our own reasons (NA, high revving, V8, sound etc...etc...). We ignore or don't mind the shortcomings. Their owners bought theirs because they have their own reasons to like them (interior, lighter, faster..easily can be made even faster etc...) and they're able to live with their shortcomings too.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by mjposner

A lot of M2 love with the M4 hate, yet turbo, electric steering and piped in sound.....

Smaller and lighter package, will probably look better(at least the front end) and is much cheaper, if it can just sound right, this car will be perfect!! Still have faith in BMW!!

[atopa2002]

Originally Posted by OhSoCal

I'm not saying they're incorrect and I agree with a lot of it, plus I drove one which adds to this.

....to me, it seems like an insecurity because the new one is faster hence why it's flamed daily on this forum. I say this because I was also insecure about it so I explored that option. I drove two of them and yes, I confirmed to myself that they are indeed faster. But I also confirmed some of the gripes are true (steering, sound etc...) - but I also still think it's a pretty good car and most of the bashing it excessive. I drove it for myself and I formed the opinions on my own versus reading pages and pages of bashing on the internet. I found that in the end, keeping mine is the best option and I'm glad I drove the F8x's.

Yes, this reaction occurred in the E46 forums too when the E9x came out and as you also pointed out, they're mostly correct about the criticisms about the E9x...but guess what? We still love our cars, so why don't we let the F8x guys love their cars too?

No choice but to accept that the new one is different because it's already here (love it or hate it). It's not like ours will all melt away....we still have ours and we love ours for our own reasons (NA, high revving, V8, sound etc...etc...). We ignore or don't mind the shortcomings. Their owners bought theirs because they have their own reasons to like them (interior, lighter, faster..easily can be made even faster etc...) and they're able to live with their shortcomings too.

well put

[rngrjag]

Originally Posted by mjposner

A lot of M2 love with the M4 hate, yet turbo, electric steering and piped in sound.....

Fair point. I recall people saying the 1M wasn't a "true" ///M car when it came out b/c turbos, etc. However, what it did excel at was capturing the feel of driving a "special car." In my case, I'm hoping the M2 feels more like a successor to the E46 in size and driving experience than the E92 and F8X. Hopefully the EPS deficiencies will be more sorted, or less noticeable in a smaller chassis?

The M2 seems most analogous to the 1M in this regard; an ///M niche car within the ///M family which itself used to be a "niche." Regardless of body type, I still think piped-in sound through the stereo is an abomination in an enthusiast vehicle, any enthusiast vehicle.

I also think there is a LOT of anticipation for the M2 because of the near-universal adulation the M235 has received. The F8X platform, not so much.

[rngrjag]

Originally Posted by OhSoCal

I'm not saying they're incorrect and I agree with a lot of it, plus I drove one which adds to this.

....to me, it seems like an insecurity because the new one is faster hence why it's flamed daily on this forum. I say this because I was also insecure about it so I explored that option. I drove two of them and yes, I confirmed to myself that they are indeed faster. But I also confirmed some of the gripes are true (steering, sound etc...) - but I also still think it's a pretty good car and most of the bashing it excessive. I drove it for myself and I formed the opinions on my own versus reading pages and pages of bashing on the internet. I found that in the end, keeping mine is the best option and I'm glad I drove the F8x's.

Yes, this reaction occurred in the E46 forums too when the E9x came out and as you also pointed out, they're mostly correct about the criticisms about the E9x...but guess what? We still love our cars, so why don't we let the F8x guys love their cars too?

No choice but to accept that the new one is different because it's already here (love it or hate it). It's not like ours will all melt away....we still have ours and we love ours for our own reasons (NA, high revving, V8, sound etc...etc...). We ignore or don't mind the shortcomings. Their owners bought theirs because they have their own reasons to like them (interior, lighter, faster..easily can be made even faster etc...) and they're able to live with their shortcomings too.

I see, the "can't we all just get along speech," huh? As I have said all along, my angst is directed at BMW, NOT F8X drivers. Next year I'll be pissed that Carreras are turbos, and am very unhappy that the Turbo, Turbo S, GT3, etc., no longer come in a manual. And yes, you can "whine" about "accepting" the fact that the manufacturer has changed the things you loved most about your preferred car without meaning it as a personal slight against people who purchased the new model. I hear plenty of chatter on Porsche forums about people "whining" they can't get their Turbos and GT3s with MTs. I don't often see current GT3 owners crapping on older gen GT3 owners for voicing their opinion about the change to PDK.

[FashionablyFast]

Originally Posted by rngrjag

Fair point. I recall people saying the 1M wasn't a "true" ///M car when it came out b/c turbos, etc. However, what it did excel at was capturing the feel of driving a "special car." In my case, I'm hoping the M2 feels more like a successor to the E46 in size and driving experience than the E92 and F8X. Hopefully the EPS deficiencies will be more sorted, or less noticeable in a smaller chassis?

The M2 seems most analogous to the 1M in this regard; an ///M niche car within the ///M family which itself used to be a "niche." Regardless of body type, I still think piped-in sound through the stereo is an abomination in an enthusiast vehicle, any enthusiast vehicle.

I also think there is a LOT of anticipation for the M2 because of the near-universal adulation the M235 has received. The F8X platform, not so much.

Maybe BMW purposely saved that stuff for the M2? It's looking more and more like that will be the true successor to the E46 M3

Originally Posted by rngrjag

I see, the "can't we all just get along speech," huh? As I have said all along, my angst is directed at BMW, NOT F8X drivers. Next year I'll be pissed that Carreras are turbos, and am very unhappy that the Turbo, Turbo S, GT3, etc., no longer come in a manual. And yes, you can "whine" about "accepting" the fact that the manufacturer has changed the things you loved most about your preferred car without meaning it as a personal slight against people who purchased the new model. I hear plenty of chatter on Porsche forums about people "whining" they can't get their Turbos and GT3s with MTs. I don't often see current GT3 owners crapping on older gen GT3 owners for voicing their opinion about the change to PDK.

Well said...I get it, trust me I do. I'm just trying to be diplomatic and get people to look at it in a more unbiased view.. But yes, change is inevitable, like it or not.

[rngrjag]

Originally Posted by OhSoCal

Maybe BMW purposely saved that stuff for the M2? It's looking more and more like that will be the true successor to the E46 M3


Well said...I get it, trust me I do. I'm just trying to be diplomatic and get people to look at it in a more unbiased view.. But yes, change is inevitable, like it or not.

Screw diplomacy...THIS IS M3POST! (Channeling my best Leonidas).

[Harpua]

Originally Posted by rngrjag

Fair point. I recall people saying the 1M wasn't a "true" ///M car when it came out b/c turbos, etc. However, what it did excel at was capturing the feel of driving a "special car."...

This is what I'm concerned about -- That many reviews are unanimous that the F8x is a huge step up from the E9x in the performance department, but many are left without the "special-ness" feeling. I know that word is quickly becoming overused and is totally subjective, but I fail to think of an appropriate substitute for it.

When I first drove a M3, I said/laughed outloud, "this car is INCREDIBLE!". The noise, the drama, the speed, the handling. It was all there for me, and it was all wrapped up in tasteful, understated styling with subtle hints as the true nature of this 4 door sedan.

In all honesty, I don't need a faster car than my current M3 (no tracking yet, no more speeding tickets desired) and I also don't care if it has turbos, a supercharger, 6 or 8 cylinders, etc. I want to finish my drive thinking that this car is a special one and that I'm lucky to have the pleasure of owning/driving it. I want to love the way it looks as I'm walking up to it to start my drive home. I want a bit of luxury & tech inside, and I want the option of unleashing the fires & fury of hell from 4 tailpipes with my right foot when I need to blast past a few lumbering rigs, pokey sunday drivers or to feel the lateral grip on the twisties.

I am very much hoping that the new M3 will fit the bill. It might just have to, as I am firmly in the 6MT camp and I often feel that I'm the last of a dying breed...

I will be eagerly anticipating the arrival of the M2 as well as the LCI & Comp packages of the current M3/4. I have a sneaky feeling that the M2 might be what I'm looking for. Now, just how much do I need those four doors? Hmmm....

[FogCityM3]

This is a really important point. Expressing well-informed opinions in sufficient numbers can affect corporate direction. That is entirely different from deliberately pooping on someone's choice for a car, and for most the M3/M4 with its versatility and great performance, it's fantastic choice. If my car were totaled and needed to buy a brand new car today, the M3 would be one of two choices, the 911 being the other. If on the other hand BMW asked me to build the car that would probably satisfy me the most, my answer would be different vs what is currently being offered.

Originally Posted by rngrjag

I see, the "can't we all just get along speech," huh? As I have said all along, my angst is directed at BMW, NOT F8X drivers. Next year I'll be pissed that Carreras are turbos, and am very unhappy that the Turbo, Turbo S, GT3, etc., no longer come in a manual. And yes, you can "whine" about "accepting" the fact that the manufacturer has changed the things you loved most about your preferred car without meaning it as a personal slight against people who purchased the new model. I hear plenty of chatter on Porsche forums about people "whining" they can't get their Turbos and GT3s with MTs. I don't often see current GT3 owners crapping on older gen GT3 owners for voicing their opinion about the change to PDK.

[M.A.R.C.]

Originally Posted by thekurgan

Well to be fair, the whole point of this thread is about a magazine review, no?

Originally Posted by Rupes

I'm pretty sure the editors of Car & Driver have driven their long term test car.

I guess I've just lost faith in mag reviews in general.

[AshyLarryMP]

I bought the E92 because I knew there are and would be faster cars, but the balanced ride quality would be really hard to beat. The car is also a great daily driver with multiple personalities.

[mjposner]

"Expressing well-informed opinions in sufficient numbers can affect corporate direction"

Well look at the well-informed opinions posted the last seven years about the M3:

1. needs more torque
2. needs better fuel economy
3. must be lighter
4. get rid of gas guzzler tax
5. Improve braking

So BMW did listen by bringing out a higher torque, better fuel economy, no gas guzzler tax ceramic brake option M3 and yet we still complain!

[Rupes]

And none of the things above could be accomplished by improving the existing components of the old car? You make it sound like the direction BMW took was the only possible option.

This is the M way though, no consistency. 4 cylinder M3's, 6 cylinders, 8, then turbo 6. I just wish they would improve an existing platform like Porsche to continually fine tune. That's just not the way they do things though. Oh well...

[thekurgan]

Originally Posted by M.A.R.C.

I guess I've just lost faith in mag reviews in general.

I completely agree.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by Rupes

And none of the things above could be accomplished by improving the existing components of the old car? You make it sound like the direction BMW took was the only possible option.

This is the M way though, no consistency. 4 cylinder M3's, 6 cylinders, 8, then turbo 6. I just wish they would improve an existing platform like Porsche to continually fine tune. That's just not the way they do things though. Oh well...

In fact there was a concistency, the M3 always got bigger and heavyer with more luxury at each generation while the engines have kept increassing in size, numbers of cylinders, horsepower and revs, but always with the same philosophy, a high reving, N/A, race engine type of power delivery.

Only the F8x went the opposite way by losing some weight, downsizing the engine and trading the high reving N/A for smaller turbocharged engine that makes peak power at much lower RPM delivering a more daily commuting friendly type of delivery.

Just like what Ferrari has done with the 355, 360, 430 and now 458 or what Porsche has done with the 911, the M3 has always took an evolutionary step. But now with the new F8x it's more of a revolutionnary step and it's to each his own to decide if he likes the new road that BMW is taking or not, I personnaly am not.

[Wolfinwolfsclothing]

Originally Posted by rngrjag

Sorry, I disagree with the bolded language. Completely disagree. The problem is that they DIDN'T pull out all the stops. They took the easy way out with an eye to profits. No bespoke motor, turbo power, etc., etc. They are chasing sales volume not niche enthusiasts. Guess they'll leave that to the M2?

They may have taken an easy route on the engine block, but they did a lot of work to the engine itself. Closed deck, the tech to 'try' to eliminate lag, the extensive cooling they did, etc.
They did a lot of CF work to the car. Improved the 6MT, and many other things they did in pulling out the stops. The chasis is much more rigid, the adaptive suspensive is actually good now, they did extensive work on the EPS (even though its still a long, long, long ways off from Porsche), the tires are wider the track in front and rear is wider.
They certainly went all out when you look at the car as whole.

[Disturbed]

Originally Posted by mjposner

Same gripes as everywhere, to firm, to fast, numb steering, piped in sound, no na engine. Also, competition has simply gotten better, Lexus RC F came close, Mustang 350 is loved, new Vette is a big hit, Hellcat way faster, etc.

Still interested down the line, but must drive to really know. Of course, I generally dislike Japanese cars, Mustang just not snobby enough, corvette is only a two seater, and Hellcat is just too obnoxious and that interior. So doesn't leave much, RS5 or AMG (don't like mercedes that much either). The new Jag?

For the price your looking at a used 2013 Viper could fit the bill if you can live with a 2 seater that's a true drivers car. :-)