Dinan spring installed

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

...How much correction do the Dinan camber plates allow?

I got to -1.75-degrees, which was a gain of around -.30

Dave

[wassupmyninja]

How is the Dinan drop on an E93 M3 vert? Anyone have this set up with 20's?

[cole328]

I have it on my '11 vert with the 19's sorry , no pics yet, but I think the drop is perfect not too slammed in appearance, but all but eliminates the wheel gap

[kitw]

Originally Posted by dcstep

I got to -1.75-degrees, which was a gain of around -.30

Dave

Weird. I got -1.9 on both sides without camber plates, just pulling the crash bolts. Was hoping to get -2.5 with the camber plates.

[Raptor251]

I have a few pics in my profile of the dinan stage 3 kit installed w/ real M6 wheels (they fit perfect by the way with the stock M3 tires installed) sorry couldnt post them to the forum yet im too new!

[H Bomb]

here is mine with the Dinan stage 1 and camber plates. i love the susp now. it is def more for performance then cosmetic but i don't like the slammed look and with the way the roads are around here i couldn't do it anyway so the dinan setup is perfect for me

Originally Posted by immiketoo

My dealer has a test car with Dinan springs on it and I cand even tell, except that the front appears higher than the rear, which looks odd to me. Does anyone have High res pics of before and after from straigt off to the side? All these funky angles are deceiving...

[H Bomb]

i have the stage 1 with camber plates and i love it. this is how the car should have come stock. it handles better but is still comfortable so for me it is the perfect setup. i have a nice 4 mile run with twisties and all kinds of diff turns and off cambers etc and right away when i got the susp done it handled alot better then stock. i think this is great kit without going full blown susp that gives up comfort. with this you get little of both

you may want some of the other susp parts since you have that much power though, like the stage 2 roll bar

Originally Posted by PWROF3

I'm considering buying Dinan springs for my
2009 m3 but I'm worried about
The drive, tell me a little about the
Handling and the comfort
Does it handle better on curves?
I just recently added the Dinan exhaust
And I have the G Power supercharger
So you could imagine how much power I have with not enough traction.
Do you have any more pics so I can see How's your stance.

[V1.47fan]

Without data,you're just another guy with an opinion. When you guys say the car handles better with dinan springs,are you referring to ride quality or you got some actual numbers to back it up.
I've seen some numbers where a stock M3 went against an M3 with KW coilovers,it was so close you prolly couldn't tell the difference in handling if you drove both cars around town. And that's with coilovers with camber plates..

[V1.47fan]

Even national champions rely on timed runs to determine if some susp. Changes improved handling

[dcstep]

Good point v1.47Fan, but you probably won't see any "hard" numbers here. That, however, doesn't mean that real performance gains aren't happening.

My Dinan set with camber plates feels faster on the AX course. It wasn't practical to do A-B runs, where I ran a closed course in the morning, swaped the springs and ran the same course in the p.m. at the same temperatures, etc.

I have done thousands of laps agaisnt some pretty stiff competition and I judge my performance relative to others. My M3's gap, running the stock Michelins, closed down by half a second or so. This season I'll swap wheels and tires and hope to eliminate the gap in 2011. The competition in front of me all have coil-overs and forced induction in far lighter and mostly stiffer (caged) cars.

Tenths are big in AX. With my Dinan setup, I can feel that the car is balanced, trail-brakes very well and only pushes if I am wildly over-agressive. When I drive the stock M3s of students, I can't be as aggressive as in my own car.

If you've got a comparison source, would you quote it for us? I find it hard to believe that a stock M3 matched a well set up performance suspension and would like to see the test conditions and the type of tests that they performed.

Thanks,

Dave

[V1.47fan]

M3 Lap Times from Hockenheim Race Track

a-workx M3: 1:12.4 (DCT, KW CS, Akrapovic Evo, PSCup)

2009/10 AC Schnitzer ACS3: 1:12.7 (6MT, ACS Suspension & Exhaust, PSCup, BBK)

2008/11 2011 M3: 1:14.2 (DCT, ZCP, PS2) 2010/7

Hamann M3: 1:15.0 (6MT, PS2 w/ 305R, Coil Over, Engine Tune, BBK, Exhaust aero)

Source: numbers gathered by rldzhao,thanks

Keep in mind you could shave a second or two just by going from the PS2's to PSCup's alone.
I have more faith in M motorsport than Dinan and IMHO Anyone who's serious about performance wouldn't go the Dinan route,especially if You got Ground Control,TC kline...

[dcstep]

2-seconds on a one-minute lap is a lot and the cups are not good for 2-seconds on that short a lap on most tracks.

Anyway, all that data is fairly meaningless since, I assume, the cars are all driven by different drivers.

Hey, I agree that BMW makes a hell of a great stock car, but it's very easy to improve. It's delivered as a street compromise aimed at the majority of the owners that only really care about this. Lowering the CG and improving camber settings is a guaranteed way to gain speed.

It's funny, almost all of the noob M3 drivers that come out to try AX come out in totally stock cars. They do all right and the really talented ones can get within a second or two of some of the top drivers. In contrast, all the old hands have worked their suspensions, are running light wide wheels and have the correct Dunlops (in the non-R compound class) and they're all very tightly grouped around each other (within tenths).

You can have tons of fun with your stock M3 suspension, but if you want to win, other than in the stock class, then you'll need to work on your suspension.

Dave

[V1.47fan]

Originally Posted by dcstep

2-seconds on a one-minute lap is a lot and the cups are not good for 2-seconds on that short a lap on most tracks.

Anyway, all that data is fairly meaningless since, I assume, the cars are all driven by different drivers.

Hey, I agree that BMW makes a hell of a great stock car, but it's very easy to improve. It's delivered as a street compromise aimed at the majority of the owners that only really care about this. Lowering the CG and improving camber settings is a guaranteed way to gain speed.

It's funny, almost all of the noob M3 drivers that come out to try AX come out in totally stock cars. They do all right and the really talented ones can get within a second or two of some of the top drivers. In contrast, all the old hands have worked their suspensions, are running light wide wheels and have the correct Dunlops (in the non-R compound class) and they're all very tightly grouped around each other (within tenths).

You can have tons of fun with your stock M3 suspension, but if you want to win, other than in the stock class, then you'll need to work on your suspension.

Dave

Without data,you're just another guy with an opinion.

Without any hard numbers you can't tell if the dinan springs improved the car's handling,can you?

You missed the point if a stock M3 times are so close to one with coilovers,adjustable camber plates,tires.... I don't think you can swap just springs,increase neg camber by a mere -.5, drive it in the twisties,come back and say " Yup,it handles better than stock now".

[klammer]

Perception is reality... Btw, yours is an opinion as well

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by V1.47fan

Without data,you're just another guy with an opinion.

Without any hard numbers you can't tell if the dinan springs improved the car's handling,can you?

You missed the point if a stock M3 times are so close to one with coilovers,adjustable camber plates,tires.... I don't think you can swap just springs,increase neg camber by a mere -.5, drive it in the twisties,come back and say " Yup,it handles better than stock now".

No, I didn't miss the point.

You presented data that supported my opinion, but only to a degree, because it apparently involved multiple drivers in different cars.

I've driven enough laps and competed against and beaten enough national champions (on a given day, back when I ran an ESP 5.0 Mustang) to know a little bit about how a car feels when it's handling well. I've competed against and worked with friends as they developed national champion cars.

You are right, it'd be nice if we Dinan or some independent tester did a with/without comparison with a professional test driver to quantify the differences. However, just because the we don't have that doesn't mean that the opinions of experienced drivers are invalidated.

A stock M3 can be a ton of fun, but people that want to win work on optimizing their chassis, addressing geometries, unsprung and sprung weight, stiffness and tire selection. The easiest first step is tire selection. It gets more expensive after that.

Dave

[V1.47fan]

Originally Posted by dcstep

No, I didn't miss the point.

You presented data that supported my opinion, but only to a degree, because it apparently involved multiple drivers in different cars.

I've driven enough laps and competed against and beaten enough national champions (on a given day, back when I ran an ESP 5.0 Mustang) to know a little bit about how a car feels when it's handling well. I've competed against and worked with friends as they developed national champion cars.

You are right, it'd be nice if we Dinan or some independent tester did a with/without comparison with a professional test driver to quantify the differences. However, just because the we don't have that doesn't mean that the opinions of experienced drivers are invalidated.

A stock M3 can be a ton of fun, but people that want to win work on optimizing their chassis, addressing geometries, unsprung and sprung weight, stiffness and tire selection. The easiest first step is tire selection. It gets more expensive after that.

Dave

You can jump in a car drive in the twisties and be able to determine the car will be .4 second slower or faster on a minute lap.
Okay then the M3 with the Dinan springs handles better than stock because Dave said so.

Why do the tire rack run all those tests with multiple timed runs to determine the best tire? Can't they find talented drivers like you or that ability you have doesn't apply to reviewing tires.

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by V1.47fan

You can jump in a car drive in the twisties and be able to determine the car will be .4 second slower or faster on a minute lap.
Okay then the M3 with the Dinan springs handles better than stock because Dave said so.

Why do the tire rack run all those tests with multiple timed runs to determine the best tire? Can't they find talented drivers like you or that ability you have doesn't apply to reviewing tires.

Now you're showing your ignorance and arrogance. I never said that the Dinan setup made the E92 M3 .x second faster. I can talk about improved balance and turn-in, but I said, without an A-B test on a fixed course that I couldn't quantify the difference.

Tirerack and Car & Driver easily compare tires and give quanitative results. The switch over between tire/wheels sets is very quick, allowing for easy comparisons. Changing suspensions is not so easy and, so far as I know, no one's done it with street M3s. It'd be wonderful if we had that, but we don't.

Lacking that crystal clear documentation we then have to look towards some "next best" data points. You kindly posted so references that show that suspension changes seem to make differences, but it was clouded by the mulitple drivers. I point to my own experience from decades of competitive autocrossing and observation of successful cars and drivers. Yes, that too is flawed and not ideal, but that's what we have right now.

You would invalidate and belittle the opinion of anyone that can't quote hard facts. That's fine for you personally, but others are trying to make informed decisions with the available data. Yes, buyer beware and consider the source, but the opinions of many forum participants do indeed have value. The reader will need to consider those factors when trying evaluating a potential mod, but that's why they ask.

One of my projects for next season will be to see if one of my friends driving a stock E92 M3 will let me drive it for a lap or two, back-to-back with laps with my car. We would have times to compare and my subject reaction to the differences. It won't be perfection, but it'll be better than we have right now.

Still, just because we don't have measured differences doesn't mean that differences don't exist. We now have a hypothesis that's somewhat validated by racing evidence and positive experiences, but it's unproven until we design a test to either prove or disprove it.

Dave

[V1.47fan]

Without data you're just another guy with an opinion.
You need some timed runs to determine which setup is better. It's not like you're jumping from a toyota Avalon to an M3.
Most great drivers will tell you a lot of times their fastest run felt slow. You can't go by just feel to say dinan is better.
You can have a 10 paragraph response,it's not gonna change the fact that nobody can really saY one setup is better in terms of handling without some hard numbers please stop it with the misleading statements.

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by V1.47fan

Without data you're just another guy with an opinion.
You need some timed runs to determine which setup is better. It's not like you're jumping from a toyota Avalon to an M3.
Most great drivers will tell you a lot of times their fastest run felt slow. You can't go by just feel to say dinan is better.
You can have a 10 paragraph response,it's not gonna change the fact that nobody can really saY one setup is better in terms of handling without some hard numbers please stop it with the misleading statements.

Don't tell me what to say. I haven't misled anyone. This thread is not all about you and your ignorant opinions.

The parameters and basis of my opinions are clearly stated for others to evaluate for themselves. Just because my opinions are subjective, at this point, doesn't mean that they're invalid. They are opinions based on some substantial experience.

OTOH, you have no experience in the matter and have no basis for any opinion, other than you don't know. Why are you even in this thread? As an objectivist you might have served some useful function by pointing us to objective evidence and you did, but then you dismissed your own evidence because the tires were different.

You've raised a valid point and I plan to add my own objective timed tests to go with my subjective findings. Unfortunately, the AX season doesn't start here in Colorado until April, so I can't do my experiment for a while. Maybe a couple of guys or gals in a sun-state could do the test sooner than me.

For those interested, I plan to swap numbers and cars with a friend driving a stock M3 at a club AX. I'll do this in one of the morning heats, where the times don't count in my club. I'll do two runs in my car and then two runs in the other car and the other driver will do the opposite, of course. That'll give us like 8-runs from two drivers. It'll be interesting to see I think. Hopefully I can find another driver that won't dnf half his runs so we'll have the added data points.

Dave

[Tim B.]

I, for one, appreciate the write up and the opinion Dave, thanks.

Originally Posted by dcstep

Now you're showing your ignorance and arrogance. I never said that the Dinan setup made the E92 M3 .x second faster. I can talk about improved balance and turn-in, but I said, without an A-B test on a fixed course that I couldn't quantify the difference.

Tirerack and Car & Driver easily compare tires and give quanitative results. The switch over between tire/wheels sets is very quick, allowing for easy comparisons. Changing suspensions is not so easy and, so far as I know, no one's done it with street M3s. It'd be wonderful if we had that, but we don't.

Lacking that crystal clear documentation we then have to look towards some "next best" data points. You kindly posted so references that show that suspension changes seem to make differences, but it was clouded by the mulitple drivers. I point to my own experience from decades of competitive autocrossing and observation of successful cars and drivers. Yes, that too is flawed and not ideal, but that's what we have right now.

You would invalidate and belittle the opinion of anyone that can't quote hard facts. That's fine for you personally, but others are trying to make informed decisions with the available data. Yes, buyer beware and consider the source, but the opinions of many forum participants do indeed have value. The reader will need to consider those factors when trying evaluating a potential mod, but that's why they ask.

One of my projects for next season will be to see if one of my friends driving a stock E92 M3 will let me drive it for a lap or two, back-to-back with laps with my car. We would have times to compare and my subject reaction to the differences. It won't be perfection, but it'll be better than we have right now.

Still, just because we don't have measured differences doesn't mean that differences don't exist. We now have a hypothesis that's somewhat validated by racing evidence and positive experiences, but it's unproven until we design a test to either prove or disprove it.

Dave

[V1.47fan]

Yeah,it's really ignorant of me to ask for some numbers to back up your claims.

[Auto]

How much do they lower?