Just test drove the E92 M3 and C63 AMG back-to-back.

[GhostyM]

.

[ace996]

Yep...pretty much my thoughts after I drove both, too. I do track though, so I wound up ith the M.
Good luck,
tomK

[stockwizard]

Great write up.

I test drove both, and came up with the exact same conclusion and put my deposit on the C63 for a Jan. '09 build.

Look wise, which do you prefer? Personally I love the aggressive look of the C63.

[Ronin13]

Definitely see advantages to ordering vs. buying test driven cars off the lot. Nice balanced review. Although the cars are in the same segment, their main qualities do appeal to different priorities.

[GhostyM]

I prefer the coupe M3 over the sedan. So for me it's lookwise.. C63=E92 M3 lookswise.

But C63>>>>E90 M3.

[RealSanaii]

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167955

WIth M-DCT, it will be a very close race

[GhostyM]

Yea i have seen that video and fail to believe it, we need a video of what happened in the C63, I think that the C63 kicked out in manual mode when he floored and forgot to shift.

The M3 Coupe vs Convert shows how much weight slowed the Conv down, maybe 5-6 cars. But when you saw the C63 vs E93 Conv video, you notice that the C63 KILLS IT by way more?

[lvwirelessguy]

The result of the video does not surprise me. Tonight I drove both back to back , and the C63 has a wonderful engine. Just roll down the windows and enjoy the music. It feels very fast, but I have no doubt that if I was to go head to head with a C63 I would walk. A C63 with all its horses unleashed would be a serious battle though.

[Hans Delbruck]

Kleemann already has a chip out to unleash the C63's power. For only $1495, you can get 55-60HP more to the wheels. No joke. Other tuners are about to release similar software. This engine is making 517 crank in the SL63, so it will be just as reliable in the C63.

Personally tho, I'm waiting a year to see which tuner's product is best.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck

Kleemann already has a chip out to unleash the C63's power. For only $1495, you can get 55-60HP more to the wheels. No joke. Other tuners are about to release similar software. This engine is making 517 crank in the SL63, so it will be just as reliable in the C63.

Personally tho, I'm waiting a year to see which tuner's product is best.

Aw, c'mon. We'd all like to know, and as they say, "The early Christians get the best lions."

In any event, more data as you get it would be fine, even in this venue.

Bruce

[UltimateBMW]

Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck

Kleemann already has a chip out to unleash the C63's power. For only $1495, you can get 55-60HP more to the wheels. No joke. Other tuners are about to release similar software. This engine is making 517 crank in the SL63, so it will be just as reliable in the C63.

Personally tho, I'm waiting a year to see which tuner's product is best.

It needs to be mentioned that the power has to come from somewhere. Either reliability or gas mileage, and the C63 has worse fuel economy than the M3 does stock. So this makes me wonder how much worse would it get with this new software.

Personally, I'll probably never chip a car just becuase the additional price isn't worth any possible warranty issues I could face. And I'm not a pro driver, so realistically it would just be a totally stupid move on my part to buy a chip and boost a car in which I already have plenty of power.

[Hans Delbruck]

Bruce, I sent you a PM

I do agree that I can hardly use the power the car already has. However, there are a whole lotta "VS" threads about "which car is faster" so apparently speed does matter to some. Me -- I gotta admit, that's kind of why I chose the C63... although I certainly feel the M3 DCT can be every bit as fast, and the C63 does suffer some power loss once it gets warm (according to my butt dyno, which happens to be very sensitive!) I think the C63 really deserves to have the HP it's capable of. It's a heavy car.

As far as voiding the warranty, all I know is what I have read on the MB forum so far. One person's dealer is an authorized Kleemann dealer so he says he has no warranty issues with the software. In my personal opinion, with the "inside" info I have on what the software does, it poses no threat to the engine. And that's from the biggest mod chicken I know! (me) MB limited the power in a pretty simple way. Reliability should be unaffected, however gas mileage.... well... that's gonna depend on how happy your throttle foot gets !

I am just happy Kleemann, Renntech, and soon VRP and another tuner will have cracked this HP issue open and the C63 can now enjoy the same power it has in other MB applications. The C63's engine, intake, plumbing, exhaust... are all the same as the other 63's. It's all in the software. Although Kleemann claims if you add their headers as well, you can get a total of 90 more HP to the wheels!

[Krueger///M3]

Cool, and if you choose the C63, B6, 503 Motoring is a Kleeman dealer for our area.

[Doc]

The only problem I have with the C63 is the poor response from the gearbox(you may argue that the torque makes up for it ) and the dumbo ear mirrors! Hoping that someone will come out for a mirror mod to make it look a little less clumsy.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by Doc

The only problem I have with the C63 is the poor response from the gearbox(you may argue that the torque makes up for it ) and the dumbo ear mirrors! Hoping that someone will come out for a mirror mod to make it look a little less clumsy.

There is a new "wing" style mirror out for the C63 in '09 Looks a little less clumsy IMO.

[footie]

Hans,

I haven't driven the C63 as yet so this question might sound dumb to those who have or own one but how does it cope with the power it already has?

I just find it absurd to add another 90hp at the wheels without a proper LSD, and even then the torque is sure to take a jump as well. Are you just going to end up with a car which has a dancing ESP light every time you happen to be a little heavy of the old right foot, meaning all that hard work and money invested in the software mods being quelled by the traction control system until it's arrived at a speed which all of the beans can be used to the full (i.e. well above the speed limit).

What a waste if true.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by footie

Hans,

I haven't driven the C63 as yet so this question might sound dumb to those who have or own one but how does it cope with the power it already has?

I just find it absurd to add another 90hp at the wheels without a proper LSD, and even then the torque is sure to take a jump as well. Are you just going to end up with a car which has a dancing ESP light every time you happen to be a little heavy of the old right foot, meaning all that hard work and money invested in the software mods being quelled by the traction control system until it's arrived at a speed which all of the beans can be used to the full (i.e. well above the speed limit).

What a waste if true.

There are a couple of ways to look at this.

In the semi-technical way of looking at it, this mod will add much more power than torque, and of course torque is what causes the drive wheels to do that scotch-tape-off-a-roll thing. Peak torque would of course climb a bit with this mod, but mainly the torque curve will not fall off nearly as steeply as with the stock motor, thus fleshing out the high rpm power.

The nature of the mod is such that everyday drivability will be absolutely unaffected, but full throttle will be even more of an eye-opener at high rpm.

The other way to look at it is the Mark Donohue way. You may remember this race driver's collaborative projects with Roger Penske in the late '60s and '70s. When Penske and Donahue began their collaboration with Porsche which eventually absolutely dominated the Can-Am series (kind of a run-what-you-brung venue with damn few rules), they were attempting to sort out some handling/aerodynamic/tire wear issues. During one of the tuning discussions, one of the Porsche engineers said something to the effect of "Well, at least we have enough power."

To which Donohue said something like: "Listen! Unless I can't use full throttle until I get to the last 100 feet of the longest straight we're ever going to run on, we don't have enough power!

Love it.

Bruce

[footie]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

During one of the tuning discussions, one of the Porsche engineers said something to the effect of "Well, at least we have enough power."

To which Donohue said something like: "Listen! Unless I can't use full throttle until I get to the last 100 feet of the longest straight we're ever going to run on, we don't have enough power!

Love it.

Bruce

Ballsy, though I like his style. I'm from a different train of thought, I like to get the throttle down full as soon as possible and never want to lift until I reach the braking zone.

The only point I was making was why give a car more power when it is having problems putting to the ground what it already has, it's OK on the track with a proper race car saying this things, where aerodynamics can hepl push the car on to the surface and the race tyres provide mountains more grip but on a road car there is a point when enough is enough.

A perfect example of this was the RUF 'Yellow Bird', a car with more power than grip. This is not to say the C63 is anything like that but you understand my thinking.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by footie

Ballsy, though I like his style. I'm from a different train of thought, I like to get the throttle down full as soon as possible and never want to lift until I reach the braking zone.

The only point I was making was why give a car more power when it is having problems putting to the ground what it already has, it's OK on the track with a proper race car saying this things, where aerodynamics can hepl push the car on to the surface and the race tyres provide mountains more grip but on a road car there is a point when enough is enough.

A perfect example of this was the RUF 'Yellow Bird', a car with more power than grip. This is not to say the C63 is anything like that but you understand my thinking.

I do indeed understand. However, don't overlook the semi-technical way of looking at it. This particular modification will not increase peak torque nearly as much as it will affect peak power, so traction problems will not increase dramatically.

Bruce

[ihyln]

The C63 is nice but is not the overall package people are looking for, comfort (no pass, ride IS harsh on anything but a glass surface), reliability (no pass, why do you think they don't care about the chip? $$$ to them if something happens), speed (pass, definitely definitely fast as hell). So 2 no gos out of 3.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by ihyln

The C63 is nice but is not the overall package people are looking for, comfort (no pass, ride IS harsh on anything but a glass surface), reliability (no pass, why do you think they don't care about the chip? $$$ to them if something happens), speed (pass, definitely definitely fast as hell). So 2 no gos out of 3.

You could be right that the C63 isn't what people are looking for, but in my little corner of the world, M3s are in plentiful supply and seem to hang around for quite some time on the lots (admittedly only two lots I get to routinely see), while the local Merc dealer can't get one in without it being presold - the poor bastard.

Bruce

[Irb Digital]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

You could be right that the C63 isn't what people are looking for, but in my little corner of the world, M3s are in plentiful supply and seem to hang around for quite some time on the lots (admittedly only two lots I get to routinely see), while the local Merc dealer can't get one in without it being presold - the poor bastard.

Bruce

You gotta point there. Also for those that don't know, the C63 can be equipped with a proper LSD, if you opt for the Performance Package, which also adds some other nice touches, one of them being an upgraded brake package. The reason the chip on the benz is adding so much power, is because the motor was detuned from the more expensive vehicles equipped with the same motor. So most of the gains are the just adding back some of the timing and fuel, which is mostly seen at the top of the RPM range, so I wouldn't be too worried about reliablity. As far as warranty, a dealership would have to be looking for it, and they would still have to prove that it caused your malfunction.