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      07-07-2018, 07:56 AM   #23
Bt12
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What type of transmission will your future GT4 be? Also do you track the car?
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      07-07-2018, 08:45 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Bt12 View Post
What type of transmission will your future GT4 be? Also do you track the car?
GT4's only come in manual! I do and would like to keep doing so, but it's just 2-3 times a year so almost any car would do the trick in the meantime.
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      07-09-2018, 08:14 AM   #25
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I agree with you modern BMWs have lost it. The M2 i had a ride in sounded very fake with the pops and bangs. I told my dealer i was wanting to sell my f30 since i was bored with it and looking for an m2 or e92 m3. that ride sealed my decision.

while you are waiting i'd suggest test driving an FRS/BRZ. not as refined as the e46 but when you are driving quick its really fun. plus its alot easier to find clean examples right now.
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      07-09-2018, 08:40 AM   #26
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After falling in love with the DCT M2 i first drove back in 2016, I was stupid enough to buy a manual because 'proper drivers choice'.
Didn't bond with the car at all and also got bored of lbb in some way, wished for MG DCT in the end.
Car is now sold and one obviously needs a car! Since Cayman GT4 is the absolute dream and I have a fantastic chance to save up some cash I would like a kind of hothatch in the 5-10k bracket.
Cars I've been considering are Golf gti mk5/6, focus st 2.5t, mazda 3 mps and also some stationwagons(Sweden loves stationwagons) like saab 9-3 aero, volvo estates with 5pots etc.

My history of cars are:
2004 Volvo s60r auto
2002 Bmw m3 e46 mt
2007 Saab 9-3 v6 auto
2018 Bmw m2 mt

My girlfriend just bought out our lease which is a 2016 Volvo v40 t5 carbon edition, a sort of golf gti rival with decent power and a decent gearbox, it gives me more joy than my m2 ever did, so could also jump into something like the Golf gti Clubsport.

Something practical, fast, manual or dualclutch/fast auto, can be driven wintertime, would like your help guys! All experiences are welcome, what else could I get?
So wait.. you regret buying an M2 in manual but you want to buy a GT4 in manual? What makes you think this is going to be better for you? You think a low torque manual is going to be better on the street?
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      07-09-2018, 10:14 AM   #27
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So wait.. you regret buying an M2 in manual but you want to buy a GT4 in manual? What makes you think this is going to be better for you? You think a low torque manual is going to be better on the street?
I think he's just wanting an NA engine again. most turbo motors also do better with pdk rather than a manual. with a manual every time you shift you lose boost, then you slam the next gear and have to wait for the turbo again.
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      07-09-2018, 10:27 AM   #28
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I think he's just wanting an NA engine again. most turbo motors also do better with pdk rather than a manual. with a manual every time you shift you lose boost, then you slam the next gear and have to wait for the turbo again.
I didnt have that problem in my m4 once torque management was tweaked...
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      07-09-2018, 10:54 AM   #29
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How someone can get bored in a MT M2 is beyond me.
Agreed the manual M2 was much more enjoyable than a DCT M2 I've driven.
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      07-09-2018, 12:19 PM   #30
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Honestly, I'm not surprised. Modern manuals with turbo engines always seem a little off. Factor in the rev hang and it is very hard to drive a manual smoothly. No wonder car manufacturers push tech like auto rev matching so hard.

Driving an old NA car with zero rev hang and instant throttle response, the shifts are second nature and I never have to guess what the engine is going to do now. While modern turbo cars - Timing delay, Not enough boost or worse rev hang.

If I'm buying a new car honestly I would just get a DCT and be done with. Might as well let the computer guess everything.
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      07-09-2018, 12:39 PM   #31
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e46 M3 is appreciating, everything else on your list is depreciating. If you're just getting something to hold you over till the GT4, that should cost the least in net.

Fakery is ruining cars
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      07-09-2018, 12:57 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmk08 View Post
So wait.. you regret buying an M2 in manual but you want to buy a GT4 in manual? What makes you think this is going to be better for you? You think a low torque manual is going to be better on the street?
Having had the chance to test drive a GT4, I would say everything about that car is superior to the M2, except for interior and maybe trunk space. On a personal note, I prefer steering wheel on the M2 (Got used to the thick BMW wheel vs the skinny one on the GT4 with the alcantara)

But the handling, shifter action and every other part of the human interaction with the car is amazing. The engine may be lower torque than the M2, but it's very easy to drive around town and you never feel like the power band is lacking.
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      07-09-2018, 01:00 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodan View Post
Having had the chance to test drive a GT4, I would say everything about that car is superior to the M2, except for interior and maybe trunk space. On a personal note, I prefer steering wheel on the M2 (Got used to the thick BMW wheel vs the skinny one on the GT4 with the alcantara)

But the handling, shifter action and every other part of the human interaction with the car is amazing. The engine may be lower torque than the M2, but it's very easy to drive around town and you never feel like the power band is lacking.
I have a friend who had an F80 M3 and sold it for a GT4. He complained about its daily drive-ability and sold it. He mentioned afterwards how much better the F80 was for a dual purpose car. Thats why I asked.

I don't have any first hand experience as I would have to wear a GT4 not drive one.
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      07-09-2018, 02:09 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmk08 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodan View Post
Having had the chance to test drive a GT4, I would say everything about that car is superior to the M2, except for interior and maybe trunk space. On a personal note, I prefer steering wheel on the M2 (Got used to the thick BMW wheel vs the skinny one on the GT4 with the alcantara)

But the handling, shifter action and every other part of the human interaction with the car is amazing. The engine may be lower torque than the M2, but it's very easy to drive around town and you never feel like the power band is lacking.
I have a friend who had an F80 M3 and sold it for a GT4. He complained about its daily drive-ability and sold it. He mentioned afterwards how much better the F80 was for a dual purpose car. Thats why I asked.

I don't have any first hand experience as I would have to wear a GT4 not drive one.
I would imagine daily driver concerns about the GT4 are more with the harsh suspension than any lack of tractability.
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      07-09-2018, 02:34 PM   #35
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Quote:
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I would imagine daily driver concerns about the GT4 are more with the harsh suspension than any lack of tractability.
It was about the super tall gears and lack of torque IIRC.
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      07-09-2018, 02:53 PM   #36
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Cayman GTS is a much better daily driver than the GT4. One of the most fun cars I've ever driven and they hold value extremely well. They're still selling for the same prices or more than they were 2-3 years ago when I was looking at them...like most N/A P-cars are these days. Sold my 991.1S for $8k more than I paid for it 2.5 years ago...
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      07-09-2018, 03:09 PM   #37
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i have a GT4. It's not my daily driver, but i think i could DD it if i wanted to. It's not going to have as many 'use cases' as a four-seat, full trunk M3 though.

The suspension is not harsh at all. It's actually a marvel that it's as comfortable as it is. But it's not a luxury ride by any stretch. The gears are indeed too tall and that was annoying. I had to modify it so that it pulled harder in midrange, and now i find the power delivery to be perfect.

The OP specifically clarified that he wanted a high-revving N/A car. The GT4 will certainly deliver that as long as you're ok with a small two-seater. Although tbh i prefer my 997 GT3 if i were to recommend a car that really screams.

some cars that are cheap right now and might fit the bill:
- E46 or E90 M3
- Honda S2000

Not cheap but awesome
- 997 GT3
- Shelby GT350
- Lexus LFA
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      07-10-2018, 12:43 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth One View Post
i have a GT4. It's not my daily driver, but i think i could DD it if i wanted to. It's not going to have as many 'use cases' as a four-seat, full trunk M3 though.

The suspension is not harsh at all. It's actually a marvel that it's as comfortable as it is. But it's not a luxury ride by any stretch. The gears are indeed too tall and that was annoying. I had to modify it so that it pulled harder in midrange, and now i find the power delivery to be perfect.

The OP specifically clarified that he wanted a high-revving N/A car. The GT4 will certainly deliver that as long as you're ok with a small two-seater. Although tbh i prefer my 997 GT3 if i were to recommend a car that really screams.

some cars that are cheap right now and might fit the bill:
- E46 or E90 M3
- Honda S2000

Not cheap but awesome
- 997 GT3
- Shelby GT350
- Lexus LFA
Almost forgot about 997 gt3s! My dreamcar until the gt4 came out.

And yes I do believe the gt4's manual will be far superior to the M2's, no doubt about it.
I found out that I really couldnt drive the m2 smoothly at lower speeds, and when you're at it at full chant it's too much fakery going on.

A 987.1/2 could also be an excellent choice while saving up since they don't really lose any value.
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      07-10-2018, 02:30 AM   #39
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Golf R..

i ve been racing amateur or semi professional since i was 10.. i believe anyone who says that manual is for drivers car is just being needlessly fanatic.. cause on track there are tons of things you need to do than shifting gear by clutch.. otherwise F1 drivers are not drivers since they re using paddle shift.. but they re real drivers with steel nerves also.. yes there are cars only should be considered with manual transmission like E46 M3 and few more.. but in real life, you re not racing on the road.. especially with double clutch transmissions life is more fun since it makes the car even faster comparing to manuals..
as long as except few cars i want to buy or rebuy one day ll be double clutch.. which even this statement is not super right cause new M5 is not double clutch but it shifts damn fast also..
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      07-10-2018, 03:57 AM   #40
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Quote:
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but in real life, you re not racing on the road..especially with double clutch transmissions life is more fun since it makes the car even faster comparing to manuals
Huh? lol.

So why would anyone want to drive a shitty slushbox that saves you milliseconds when we are "not racing on the road"?
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      07-10-2018, 06:50 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yco View Post
Golf R..

i ve been racing amateur or semi professional since i was 10.. i believe anyone who says that manual is for drivers car is just being needlessly fanatic.. cause on track there are tons of things you need to do than shifting gear by clutch.. otherwise F1 drivers are not drivers since they re using paddle shift.. but they re real drivers with steel nerves also.. yes there are cars only should be considered with manual transmission like E46 M3 and few more.. but in real life, you re not racing on the road.. especially with double clutch transmissions life is more fun since it makes the car even faster comparing to manuals..
as long as except few cars i want to buy or rebuy one day ll be double clutch.. which even this statement is not super right cause new M5 is not double clutch but it shifts damn fast also..
F1 drivers aren't driving manual because it's slower-- that has nothing to do with dynamics/enjoyment.

When you're racing, how fast the transmission is matters.
When you're street driving, how much you enjoy driving the car matters.
If you're doing DEs... depends what kind of person you are.

I find the statement of "but in real life, you re not racing on the road.. especially with double clutch transmissions life is more fun since it makes the car even faster comparing to manuals.." to be pretty false. I see very little correlation between "faster" and "more fun" on the street.



That said, I do think some (turbo) modern cars kind of need a fast transmissions-- manuals allow them to fall out of boost, which makes for an unpredictable (bad) driving experience. But, my solution for that is just to not buy any turbo cars
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      07-10-2018, 11:51 AM   #42
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Damn right! Another part of selling m2 is that I dont really need a car since I just moved to walking distance from work, and the m2 didn't deliver during spirited runs, maybe the 1m will?
If you don't need the practicality, then the GT4 is probably the best car you can get. Only downsides are price and the tall gearing, which I have experienced in my buddy's Cayman S as well. My guess is that Porsche is doing it to keep these cars from beating up on their big brother (the 911). The Cayman is by design the better sports car, but Porsche needs to keep the 911 king, so they de-tune the engine and make the gearing taller.

As far as the manual vs DCT thing. I can totally understand where you are coming from. I have one of each (VW GTI w/DSG & e46 M3 w/manual) and they are both great in their own way, but only because the transmissions are a perfect match to the engine. If the two transmissions were reversed, I would not nearly enjoy these cars as much as I do. It seems that now a days the cohesiveness of the engine transmission is more critical than ever before.
In general I would agree, that a modern turbo car is better with a DCT, because the boost drop can be avoided (or massively reduced) with quick shifts. However, I have read several reviews where they liked the manual better in the M2. So I guess it still comes down to personal preference.

I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule and the only way to find out is to drive them both. I am really hoping I can get myself a 991.1 GT3 in the near future, and even though it is N/A plus PDK, I just don't think I will miss the manual on that car, because it is a cohesive package that works. I'm sure the new 991.2 with manual gear box is great, but I bet I would miss that explosion between the up shifts the engine makes with the PDK.
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      07-10-2018, 11:58 AM   #43
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Watching reviews, sounds like the 991.2 GT3 is a huge improvement over the .1. Gained back a lot of what the 991 lost from the 997. 991.1 GT3 never particularly appealed to me because of the (lack of) steering feel and PDK. Combined, I'd much rather have the 997. 991.2 looks to have addressed both.



The GT4... always feels too held back/gimped to me. I'd really like to drive one that was properly geared, to see if that addressed it.
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      07-11-2018, 02:07 PM   #44
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If you don't need the practicality, then the GT4 is probably the best car you can get. Only downsides are price and the tall gearing, which I have experienced in my buddy's Cayman S as well. My guess is that Porsche is doing it to keep these cars from beating up on their big brother (the 911). The Cayman is by design the better sports car, but Porsche needs to keep the 911 king, so they de-tune the engine and make the gearing taller.

As far as the manual vs DCT thing. I can totally understand where you are coming from. I have one of each (VW GTI w/DSG & e46 M3 w/manual) and they are both great in their own way, but only because the transmissions are a perfect match to the engine. If the two transmissions were reversed, I would not nearly enjoy these cars as much as I do. It seems that now a days the cohesiveness of the engine transmission is more critical than ever before.
In general I would agree, that a modern turbo car is better with a DCT, because the boost drop can be avoided (or massively reduced) with quick shifts. However, I have read several reviews where they liked the manual better in the M2. So I guess it still comes down to personal preference.

I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule and the only way to find out is to drive them both. I am really hoping I can get myself a 991.1 GT3 in the near future, and even though it is N/A plus PDK, I just don't think I will miss the manual on that car, because it is a cohesive package that works. I'm sure the new 991.2 with manual gear box is great, but I bet I would miss that explosion between the up shifts the engine makes with the PDK.

Well said!

991.1 are going down nicely in price, and couldn't cry less about it being a PDK, it's probably epic!
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