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      07-15-2018, 08:47 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
What do you guys think in terms of value relative to performance?
I think that the standard AWD model offers good perf/$. And, with the new lower price, (with less standard equipment now too, sure) the Performance model isn’t far off.

I confess that the new lower price for the P coupled with the fact that they are now allowing interested individuals to jump in front of those waiting for the cheaper models and order one immediately are making this vehicle a more tempting proposition.

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Originally Posted by Jdub679 View Post
Long range model, premium interior. I think those were the big options that he chose.
That’s definitely it because that’s the only model on the road.

The short-range/premium, long-range/non-premium, and short-range/non-premium (the coveted, mythical $35k model) models aren’t being built yet because they don’t have enough margin in them to be profitable at the current cost per vehicle. And the AWD and Performance models just went into production so those aren’t in customers' hands yet.

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Originally Posted by MFore View Post
The $35,000 car of the people spec-ed all options comes in at $80,000. Eighty thousand. Yowza! It would be faster than a current M3 to 60mph. But would you get it before the next gen M3 is out?
You’ll get it in one to three months according to the website. Sure, that’s to be treated with skepticism. But, the new M3 is two years away minimum, so it’s safe to say you’ll have it before then.
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      07-15-2018, 09:02 PM   #24
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I'm fortunate enough to have both a Tesla Model 3 and an BMW e90 V8M3.

- TM3 is pretty quick, instant torque so it feels faster than my M3. However the M3 is faster... but not my much. It does feel like acceleration is just limited by software... maybe after a few months they can push a software update to increase acceleration. (People where getting 4.5 sec 0-60's then a software update brought it back down to the advertised 5.1)
- TM3 feels as if it handles better than my M3... imagine Porsche Cayman weighed down with luggage and two passengers and that's what the TM3 feels like
- build quality is pretty good on mine... I got lucky.
- TM3 tech makes it feel like I'm driving a car from the future. Autopilot makes traffic a breeze. iPhone X as key works every time. Interface is a breeze to use... no learning curve.
- TM3 has little to no maintenance (brakes and tires)
- 300 miles on the TM3 is less than $20 at the local supercharger (even cheaper at home) vs $60 to $70 for 225 to 250 miles on the M3
- e90 M3 V8 at 8k is like crack which makes it worth keeping every time.

I've added some visual mods to mine... I've got KW/ Mountain Pass performance coil-overs on order as well and am trying really hard not to get a set of Volk racing or hre wheels on it.
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      07-15-2018, 09:06 PM   #25
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Here's a taste of what the long range rwd model 3 is capable of with a few modifications.

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      07-16-2018, 04:03 PM   #26
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I think the Tesla Model 3 will prove to be a great drivers car. Mind you, a lot of it is due to the Model 3 having to meet a price point and Tesla decided to make it as bare bones as possible.

It is pretty lightweight for an EV (3500+ lbs) and has great handling characteristics. No frills interior and if all the autopilot gizmos are skipped what you then have is bare bones EV that handles very well with great performance.

Considering how modern turbo cars sound terrible with laggy throttles and the manual going away completely, I might as well go electric and enjoy instantaneous throttle response and always on torque.
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      07-16-2018, 04:07 PM   #27
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I drove one. It's an incredible vehicle. Tesla will win in the end.
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      07-16-2018, 04:18 PM   #28
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My only complaint is the tiny trunk opening. Would be great if it were a hatch like the Model S.

[IMG]https://i.redd.it/jy1n95guc1ez.jpg[/IMG]

Although the underfloor storage is nice and the frunk would actually probably be sufficient for most daily use.
[IMG]https://cdn.teslarati.com/wp-content...11/Frunk-3.jpg[/IMG]
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      07-17-2018, 12:07 AM   #29
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The Model 3 just doesn't make sense financially. My estimates are it will cost over $5.00 per 100 miles to fuel. Not a unbelievable bargain; especially when you consider it's a $50,000-70,000 vehicle.

Any pure EV isn't realistic to be your only car. These are second or third cars.

I also think EV owners should be required to generate their own power so they don't tax the grid. When I hear about brown outs and power shortages I want to scream from the mountain tops and ask why we're pushing cars into the grid.

Also- Tesla owners are truly insufferable. I feel like unplugging their car whenever I see one publicly refueling... Not that I've ever done that.
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      07-17-2018, 09:52 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
The Model 3 just doesn't make sense financially. My estimates are it will cost over $5.00 per 100 miles to fuel. Not a unbelievable bargain; especially when you consider it's a $50,000-70,000 vehicle.

Any pure EV isn't realistic to be your only car. These are second or third cars.

I also think EV owners should be required to generate their own power so they don't tax the grid. When I hear about brown outs and power shortages I want to scream from the mountain tops and ask why we're pushing cars into the grid.

Also- Tesla owners are truly insufferable. I feel like unplugging their car whenever I see one publicly refueling... Not that I've ever done that.
I don't think most people are considering a Tesla purely as a gas savings option. You can save $1000 a year maybe which is great but as you said that's not the top priority for someone buying a $50k+ car.

Why can't an EVs be a primary? Not suggesting it should be but why can't it be?

I dont think EVs will be terribly imposing on the grid since I think most charging happens overnight during which time there is a smaller load on the system.
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      07-17-2018, 09:47 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
The Model 3 just doesn't make sense financially. My estimates are it will cost over $5.00 per 100 miles to fuel. Not a unbelievable bargain; especially when you consider it's a $50,000-70,000 vehicle.

Any pure EV isn't realistic to be your only car. These are second or third cars.

I also think EV owners should be required to generate their own power so they don't tax the grid. When I hear about brown outs and power shortages I want to scream from the mountain tops and ask why we're pushing cars into the grid.

Also- Tesla owners are truly insufferable. I feel like unplugging their car whenever I see one publicly refueling... Not that I've ever done that.
Back in 2013, I did a bunch of total vehicle cost calculations on a Tesla Model S and my then 200,000-mile E90. My calculations showed an EV needs to cost $35K to make economic sense to purchase. And then there's still the range anxiety and refueling time issues to deal with. EV's aren't there yet.
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      07-17-2018, 09:54 PM   #32
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there's a grey one in my parking garage. it looks like a decomposing whale that was in pain, previously. don't care how it drives....
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      07-17-2018, 11:14 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
I dont think EVs will be terribly imposing on the grid since I think most charging happens overnight during which time there is a smaller load on the system.
Perhaps a "smart meter" should be required for EV owners so charging can be regulated. If the grid gets overly taxed the power company can shut down vehicle charging. Does that sound like a reasonable compromise?
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      07-18-2018, 05:45 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
I dont think EVs will be terribly imposing on the grid since I think most charging happens overnight during which time there is a smaller load on the system.
Perhaps a "smart meter" should be required for EV owners so charging can be regulated. If the grid gets overly taxed the power company can shut down vehicle charging. Does that sound like a reasonable compromise?
I'm not trying to be pro-EV or anything, but I don't think anyone is more entitled to the grid than anyone else at any given time so prioritizing others over EVs seems unfair. Most of the burden to the grid is from ACs running. Decades ago people would open their windows and accept some extra heat. Nowadays there are people who feel the need to set their AC to 65 when it's 90 out, and not use smart thermostats to lower usage when out of the house. If anyone, it's people like that that should be deprioritized during heavy loads.
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      07-18-2018, 06:35 AM   #35
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The tablet dash is a severe cost-cutting measure on Tesla's part. Oh that's right "simplified elegance"... or "modern minimalism", LOL
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      07-18-2018, 06:47 AM   #36
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The tablet dash is a severe cost-cutting measure on Tesla's part. Oh that's right "simplified elegance"... or "modern minimalism", LOL
Right, and as someone said earlier, not having one in front of yourself is weird, at least at first. I always wondered if there was an iPad app that can replicate an instrument cluster than you can mount in front of the driver.
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      07-18-2018, 09:23 AM   #37
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      07-19-2018, 05:51 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
Right, and as someone said earlier, not having one in front of yourself is weird, at least at first. I always wondered if there was an iPad app that can replicate an instrument cluster than you can mount in front of the driver.
A friend of mine has a 2017 Audi S5. Audi's approach to the infotech displays in that car are simply amazing. Informative, fully programmable, and integrated into the dash styling. What it doesn't look like is half a laptop stuck on a piece of wood.

The design style of the laptop stuck on the dash is not an advancement by any means. The Model S could have been designed in the same manner, yet it has a full gauge cluster and hand controls for vital functions. The Model 3 is simply a cost-cutting design, no other conclusion can be reached.
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      07-19-2018, 06:30 AM   #39
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Wait, a car half the price of its big sibling uses cost cutting methods? Next you'll tell me the A6 has nicer tech than the A4/S5 you speak of. But surely not.
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      07-19-2018, 06:50 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
Right, and as someone said earlier, not having one in front of yourself is weird, at least at first. I always wondered if there was an iPad app that can replicate an instrument cluster than you can mount in front of the driver.
A friend of mine has a 2017 Audi S5. Audi's approach to the infotech displays in that car are simply amazing. Informative, fully programmable, and integrated into the dash styling. What it doesn't look like is half a laptop stuck on a piece of wood.

The design style of the laptop stuck on the dash is not an advancement by any means. The Model S could have been designed in the same manner, yet it has a full gauge cluster and hand controls for vital functions. The Model 3 is simply a cost-cutting design, no other conclusion can be reached.
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Wait, a car half the price of its big sibling uses cost cutting methods? Next you'll tell me the A6 has nicer tech than the A4/S5 you speak of. But surely not.
You are both correct, I think. Yes the model 3 has some features from the S but it is a scaled down version for cost reasons, as is expected, to a degree. I just wish they picked and chosen more carefully abt where to cut costs relative to the S so as not to cut things that people would want. I personally can't imagine no instrument cluster in front of the driver. It looks like a slight upgrade from a Toyota Yaris. Also I think I heard it has no radio?
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      07-19-2018, 07:34 AM   #41
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Of course it has a radio. I mean, maybe not an AM/FM sort of radio, but at least a way to play Spotify, etc.
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      07-19-2018, 08:00 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
The design style of the laptop stuck on the dash is not an advancement by any means. The Model S could have been designed in the same manner, yet it has a full gauge cluster and hand controls for vital functions. The Model 3 is simply a cost-cutting design, no other conclusion can be reached.
It is a lower cost solution that is nevertheless functional and perfectly adequate for the consumer of the product.

Every manufacturer controls costs by making compromises with the vehicle's design when compared to what could be if managing expenses were not made as high a priority. For example, Audi's FWD-first MLB matrix is not as advanced as their RWD-first MSB matrix. Would an A6 be a better dynamic vehicle if it were built on MSB like the Panamera and Continental? Surely, yes. In that event, the criticism often leveled at Audi for the understeer their vehicles tend to exhibit would no doubt be less common. But the intended customers do not demand any different, so Audi is able to continue to use the lower cost solution.

The reason that the Model 3 interior is such a non-starter for you is that you are not the target customer for the car. You no doubt had reasons for choosing the BMW you drive over an Audi as well. It may be impossible for you to ever accept a minimalist interior as see in the Model 3. For some folks, being able to acquire an electric car at a price is worth that compromise. Similarly, there are those who cannot understand why anyone would tolerate Audi's chassis compromise rather than buying a BMW or other luxury vehicle. Others - perhaps those who care more about the perceived beauty and elegance of the Audi interior, for example - would never think of buying the BMW.
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      07-19-2018, 11:55 AM   #43
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I think it's objectively a decent car but I would never be caught dead in one. Why? Because I used to have clients who drove Teslas and they were insufferable tech nerds. Cars are just a gadget to show off for them. They were not real car enthusiasts. The Model 3 is for people like that.

I'll stick with the douchebag BMW image, it fits me better.


That is too funny. I work in IT, and I kid you not, there have been various IT conferences I've been to where I have met people just like that. Most recently, there was a guy at one conference wearing a Tesla branded hat and denim jacket just gushing about his car and how he doesn't have to buy gas anymore.

I mentioned I was a car enthusiast, but he couldn't fathom why I would be interested in anything that wasn't fully electric. Some of these Tesla owners just see their car as a gadget like you said, just an extension of their smartphone.
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      07-20-2018, 05:16 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
It is a lower cost solution that is nevertheless functional and perfectly adequate for the consumer of the product.

Every manufacturer controls costs by making compromises with the vehicle's design when compared to what could be if managing expenses were not made as high a priority. For example, Audi's FWD-first MLB matrix is not as advanced as their RWD-first MSB matrix. Would an A6 be a better dynamic vehicle if it were built on MSB like the Panamera and Continental? Surely, yes. In that event, the criticism often leveled at Audi for the understeer their vehicles tend to exhibit would no doubt be less common. But the intended customers do not demand any different, so Audi is able to continue to use the lower cost solution.

The reason that the Model 3 interior is such a non-starter for you is that you are not the target customer for the car. You no doubt had reasons for choosing the BMW you drive over an Audi as well. It may be impossible for you to ever accept a minimalist interior as see in the Model 3. For some folks, being able to acquire an electric car at a price is worth that compromise. Similarly, there are those who cannot understand why anyone would tolerate Audi's chassis compromise rather than buying a BMW or other luxury vehicle. Others - perhaps those who care more about the perceived beauty and elegance of the Audi interior, for example - would never think of buying the BMW.
Nah, cost cutting plain and simple. Like I said the Model S could have been designed the exact same way, but wasn't. Had GM come out with the Bolt in the exact same "total-tablet" dash configuration, you and every other BMW fanboy would be espousing my exact sentiment. For some reason people think Tesla is a luxury car maker. The Model S stands nowhere near its (S) class rivals in luxury. I chose BMWs long ago based on the rear-drive driving dynamics. Once the E30 came out with the 2.5L M20 (not the POS 2.7 eta) they finally offered a decent 3-series in the US. There's a magical quotient to the BMW I6 (naturally aspirated), rear-drive, manual transmission drivetrain. Audis in the 1970s and 1980's were serious pieces of crap.

And yup, I am actually am a Tesla target customer. I drive 35,000 miles a year and would love to have an EV sports sedan (been driving a 3-series for just about 30 years now). Lower fuel cost, lower maintenance (theoretically) and good performance. I looked extensively at the Model S as a replacement. The lowest-priced S at the time in 2012, which if memory serves was the 60KW, was still about $70K after rebates. At that price, the fuel and and maintenance savings was still $20K above what my 3-series cost me to get to 200,000 miles. You can review earlier posts of mine from 5 years ago where I was waiting to replace my E90 with a Bolt. I passed on the Bolt because a) it has insufficient range in the winter for my 175-mile commute, b) I do not like the interior design. If GM has in its next two EVs coming out in 10 months or so, an EV sedan with an interior design on the level of the current Buicks and 300-mile range, then I'm in. GM has the handling dynamics locked down now. I hope they see a there is a market for an EV sports sedan that's not techno-geek oriented.

I didn't jump in on the Model 3 reservation list because I tend not to buy cars sight unseen (let alone not even fully designed and manufactured), and especially after the total-tablet design surfaced.
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