The Airplane Thread

[Llarry]

A small photo addition to the monster F-4 posts.

The first one is of the first flight of the F-4 in 1958.

[Lady Jane]

Originally Posted by Llarry

A small photo addition to the monster F-4 posts.

The first one is of the first flight of the F-4 in 1958.

One thing I noticed is the length of the nose gear assembly compared to other versions.

[M-technik-3]

Mars coming home


Martin JRM “Mars” aircraft, XPB2M-1, 1941. With her camouflage removed, the Mars comes winging home to Middle River for a check-up before going into service as a training ship of the skie

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by Lady Jane

One thing I noticed is the length of the nose gear assembly compared to other versions.

I think it was just the very long stroke of the nose gear oleo. Here's a photo on the ground.

[Lady Jane]

A Lancaster viewed from another Lancaster.

[Llarry]

Another look at the last of the flying boats: The Martin P5M (new P-5) Marlin.

The flying boat (and amphibious flying boats which could also operate from runways) had been an important component of the U.S. Navy (and other navies) almost since the dawn of aviation. In World War II the Navy had operated PBY Catalina, PB2Y Coronado and PBM Mariners in both the Atlantic and Pacific. In addition to the aircraft, a sizeable infrastructure had been built to support the flying boats including large and small seaplane tenders. Particularly in the Pacific war, flying boats operated from island bases that did not have airports for landplanes.

After WW2, the Navy developed and deployed one more flying boat, the Martin P5M, which was an enlarged and more powerful version of the PBM Mariner. Based on lessons from the war, the P5M was to be an armed maritime patrol and antisubmarine warfare (ASW) aircraft that could operate from sheltered waters. (Note that no flying boats could normally operate from open ocean areas; the water was simply too rough.)

The increased power of the P5M came from Wright R-3350 18-cylinder air-cooled radial engines with 3,250 hp each, a considerable increase over the predecessor PBM. Despite the power, if the P5M lost an engine it would have to struggle to stay airborne, jettisoning ordnance, etc.

The Navy ended up buying 285 P5Ms during the 1950s. The U.S. Coast Guard got in on the action with almost a dozen but found the maintenance onerous and relinquished their boats to the Navy. The French Navy also got USN P5M-2s (P-5Bs) and operated them from West Africa from 1957 to 1964.

P5M squadrons were based on both U.S. coasts and deployed to Bermuda, the Caribbean and the Mediterranean from the east coast and deployed to the Aleutians, and the mid- and Western Pacific from west coast bases. The flying boats were not the only Navy patrol aircraft; land-based patrol aircraft outnumbered them, but the boats could fill gaps in coverage if and when required.

In 1962 the P5Ms were redesignated P-5; the P-5A (old P5M-1) had a conventional tail and the P-5B (old P5M-2) had a T-tail. Both had been upgraded with improved ASW capability as the SP-5A and SP-5B.

But the need for flying boats was reduced dramatically with the advent of the Lockheed P-3 Orion in patrol squadrons. The P-3 had enough range to cover the previous gaps that flying boats had covered and that spelled the end for the P-5 Marlin. It took a few years, with the final SP-5Bs retired in 1967. The retirement of the boats also allowed the retirement of the seaplane tenders, which were all war-built and showing their age.

A note on colors: Post-WW2 patrol planes were painted overall "engine grey." In the early 1960s they began to be repainted in the same gull grey as carrier aircraft, though they had white upper fuselages to minimize heat in the cabins.

[Lady Jane]

The A-4 Skyhawk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_A-4_Skyhawk still in use today as aggressors.

I am hoping that my new friend and retired Naval Aviator smokinjoe64 will jump-in since he flew them among others.

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by Lady Jane

The A-4 Skyhawk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_A-4_Skyhawk still in use today as aggressors.

I am hoping that my new friend and retired Naval Aviator smokinjoe64 will jump-in since he flew them among others.

Uh-oh, if we have a genuine bona fide Scooter-driving single-anchor Naval Aviator joining, I'm gonna have to up my game, since I am just a color vision-deficient non-aviator Navy air enthusiast or wannabe.

Welcome @smokinjoe64 !

[M-technik-3]

Originally Posted by Llarry

Uh-oh, if we have a genuine bona fide Scooter-driving single-anchor Naval Aviator joining, I'm gonna have to up my game, since I am just a color vision-deficient non-aviator Navy air enthusiast or wannabe.

Welcome @smokinjoe64 !

Welcome to site smokingjoe64


Lol on color deficient. I manage for years to memorize the old color code charts but the new tests got my at the end of my career and that and the being able to valsalva to clear my left ear. I doesn't clear anymore for some reason.

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by Lady Jane

The A-4 Skyhawk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_A-4_Skyhawk still in use today as aggressors.

I am hoping that my new friend and retired Naval Aviator smokinjoe64 will jump-in since he flew them among others.


Attachment 3371094

Attachment 3371095

When I went to Air Intercept School they would send out a flight of two and I would have to split them up and run the intercepts. They sent me an A4 and an F14 on one of my qualifications, which I thought wasn't a fair fight as the F14 had radar and the A4 didn't. I asked the F14 driver if he could turn off the radar just to make it a fair fight (the radar fighters routinely called a radar lock-on halfway through the 180º turn back at each other). The F14 driver (or RIO) mentioned they didn't like to turn off things that were working, so I asked if he could just ignore the radar; which he was cool enough to do... at least he said he wouldn't use it

[Lady Jane]

Another large flying boat: Short S.25 Sunderland

Armed to the teeth with machine guns, depth charges and bombs, it was quite the asset at protecting the shipping lanes by eating U-boats for breakfast. It was flown by many Air Forces including the RCAF. Some were built or converted for civilian use.

Story and more pictures here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_Sunderland

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by Lady Jane

Another large flying boat: Short S.25 Sunderland

I got to see Sunderlands myself when the RNZAF visited the U.S. Navy seaplane base in the Philippines in 1965.

[Llarry]

The Douglas (later McDonnell-Douglas) A-4 Skyhawk -- Part I:

The original Douglas A4D (A = attack, 4 = 4th model, D = Douglas) was designed to deliver a single nuclear bomb when launched from an aircraft carrier or Marine Corps airfield. Douglas had learned their lesson during the latter part of World War II: Simplicity was the key. The A4D (later A-4) was simplicity taken to the extreme. A turbojet engine (the Wright J65), a semi-delta wing of such compact dimensions that the normal Navy wing-folding was not required, simple avionics, etc. The price per aircraft was much less than contemporary jets. There were three store stations that could be used for external fuel or weapons; the initial concept was for a nuclear bomb on the centerline and fuel tanks under each wing. The fuel capacity for this diminutive attack plane was limited and you will note that photos of the A-4 almost always include one or two (and sometimes three) external fuel tanks.

Navy/Marine attack aviation had essentially been the AD (later A-1) Skyraider since just after WW2; the A-4 brought attack aviation into the jet age.The program started in 1952 and the prototype first flew in June of 1954.

The Navy bought 166 production A4D-1s (later A-4As) and named the aircraft the Skyhawk. The -1 was soon superseded on the production line by the -2 (A-4B) and the Navy and Marines went big on this model, taking delivery of 542 aircraft. The A4D-2 introduced a couple of changes, the most notable of these being an aerial refueling probe to allow extended range and endurance. The A4D-1s were soon relegated to secondary roles.

Simple was good, but the services wanted more capability, and they got it with the next model, the A4D-2N (later A-4C). The -2N was the most-produced Navy/Marine variant with 638 built. The A4D-2N featured a slightly lengthened nose with a lightweight radar and had an autopilot. By the 1960s, Douglas ruled the light attack skies with the A-4B and A-4C.

The A-4 was not perfect, though -- there were engine problems with the Wright J65. (My Dad had to eject from an A4D in 1958 during an air show, no less, when the engine quit on him.) Like defense contractors always do, Douglas offered more capability -- for more money, of course. There was even a proposal to abandon the simple wing for swept wings with folding as the A4D-4, but the Navy didn't bite.

Pratt & Whitney, meanwhile, had come up with a new scaled-down version of the outstanding J57 jet engine. This smaller engine -- the J52 would be a perfect fit in the A4D and would offer greater thrust. The Navy finally agreed to a new A4D model, the A4D-5 (later A-4E). The -5 was a major step forward and I'll discuss it and other more advanced models in the next part.

The designations -- old versus new -- are confusing and from now on I will stick to the new designations; the A4D-1 became the A-4A, the A4D-2 became the A-4B and the prolific A4D-2N became the A-4C, all in late 1962. Stay tuned.

A note on the photos: The second photo shows a variety of stores that could be carried by the A4D-1 including two different nuclear bombs, as well as fuel tanks and conventional bombs and rockets. The third photo shows one A4D-2 with 3 tanks refueling another carrying a Mark 12 practice bomb. The last photo shows a Marine Corps A-4C using JATO rocket assist for short takeoff; until adequate airfields could be built, Marine A-4s used this technique when first deployed to Vietnam in 1965-66.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_A-4_Skyhawk

[smokinjoe64]

Originally Posted by Lady Jane

The A-4 Skyhawk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_A-4_Skyhawk still in use today as aggressors.

I am hoping that my new friend and retired Naval Aviator smokinjoe64 will jump-in since he flew them among others.

Many thanks to Lady Jane introduction to thread/community
That said, sharing a few 'non-classified' pics of platforms flown in my Nav career and out
[most are actual, some representative...way before Go-pro & iPhones ]

All Up:

1. T-34C Turbomentor
2. T-2 Buckeye
3. TA-4J Skyhawk
4. A-4M Skyhawk (Pacific Fleet Adversary)
5. F-16N Falcon (Pacific Fleet Adversary)
6. S-3B Viking
7. EA-6B Prowler
8. Gulfstream IV
9. Gulfstream V

[Llarry]

Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Part II:

The Pratt & Whitney J52 engine gave the A-4 a new lease on life. It was lighter than the previous J65 and offered 8,500 pounds of thrust versus the J65's 7,700 pounds. And had lower fuel consumption: Winner!

The A-4E model with its new J52 engine also had a further lengthened nose to provide space for more electronics. It also featured two more wing pylons for a new total of 5 stores stations. The first flight of a prototype took place in July 1961 and the Navy was impressed; orders were soon forthcoming and 499 A-4Es rolled off the line.

That probably would have been the end of the A-4 story but the hostilities in Vietnam gave the A-4 a new lease on life. The Navy was buying the new Vought A-7 Corsair II (aka SLUF) but wanted more light attack planes. The final Navy version was the A-4F, with even more power (9,300 lbs of thrust), nose wheel steering, wing spoilers and other improvements. Most were fitted with a dorsal "hump" that had space for more electronics. By now the Navy realized that the sophisticated air defense environment of North Vietnam required electronic countermeasures (ECM) equipment.

146 A-4Fs were delivered and the final batch of these had a squared-off vertical stabilizer and a further engine thrust increase to 11,200 lbs; these last A-4Fs were known as "Super Foxes" and gained fame as adversary aircraft for Top Gun and other adversary units. For an early 1950s design, the A-4 had come a long way indeed.

The Navy was using the early 1950s design TF-9J two-seat Cougar as an advanced and instrument training aircraft for jet pilots and wanted a replacement. Douglas proposed a two-seat version of the A-4 that would fill the bill. The resulting TA-4F was stretched 28 inches in the front and had had reduced fuel capacity to accommodate the second seat. Deliveries began in 1966 and the Navy/Marines bought 239 of these combat-capable trainers. In addition, late in the Vietnam War, the laser-guided bomb entered the picture; two-seat TA-4Fs were used with the rear-seater using a hand-held designator to lase the target for the LGB to home on.

The TA-4F was followed by the TA-4J, which was intended to replace the TF-9Js of training squadrons. The TA-4J omitted some combat features and used a lower-powered engine; the Navy bought 277 and many TA-4Fs were subsequently converted to TA-4Js. A whole generation of Navy jet pilots cut their teeth on the TA-4J.

The final U.S. A-4 production variant was the Marine Corps A-4M, which was the best of the lot; as the Navy gave up their A-4s for the newer, larger A-7, the Marines had reservations and wanted to continue to buy A-4s. The A-4M incorporated all the improvements of the A-4F Super Fox plus some: An enlarged and roomier cockpit, an auxiliary power unit for self-start capability, a braking parachute, a head-up display in the cockpit and general strengthening were all part of the package. The A-4M first flew in 1970 and 158 were delivered to the Corps, serving alongside the few British AV-8A Harrier VSTOL attack jets that were also procured during the same period.

The Marines used the TA-4F as a fast forward air controller aircraft and converted a few to OA-4M configuration with some of the A-4M features. The OA-4M was considered the ultimate two-seat Skyhawk, though only 23 were converted.

The Navy replaced the A-4s in its attack squadrons with the A-7 and the Marines replaced their A-4s with the improved AV-8B Harrier, but the TA-4s continued to serve for many years. Other than in the training command, A-4s and TA-4s were used for many years in the adversary role and modified A-4Fs and TA-4Fs were used by the Blue Angels flight demonstration squadron.

To rewind a bit, during the Vietnam War, the Navy recognized that its reserve A-4 units were not adequately equipped for combat service in areas such as ECM. 100 older J65-powered A-4Cs (see Part I) were updated to A-4L standard and used by Navy and Marine reserve units for a few years; they were the last J65-powered A-4s to be retired.

Next up: Part III of the A-4 story -- the export market and civil users.

[matteo]

Originally Posted by smokinjoe64

Many thanks to Lady Jane introduction to thread/community
That said, sharing a few 'non-classified' pics of platforms flown in my Nav career and out
[most are actual, some representative...way before Go-pro & iPhones ]

All Up:

1. T-34C Mentor
2. T-2 Buckeye
3. TA-4J Skyhawk
4. A-4M Skyhawk (Pacific Fleet Adversary)
5. F-16N Falcon (Pacific Fleet Adversary)
6. S-3B Viking
7. EA-6B Prowler
8. Gulfstream IV
9. Gulfstream V

A fellow Gulfstream driver! Great time for me to stumble across this thread as well. Thank you for your service.

I'll see your T-34 and raise you a TB-30.

[Lady Jane]

Originally Posted by smokinjoe64

Many thanks to Lady Jane introduction to thread/community

Just glad to be able to poach you from the e92 Forum.

[smokinjoe64]

Originally Posted by matteo

A fellow Gulfstream driver! Great time for me to stumble across this thread as well. Thank you for your service.

Cool matteo ...I was actually able to get Type Rated in both IV & V during a single lengthy, extended session in Savannah.
What platforms have you piloted?

I'll see your T-34 and raise you a TB-30.

Welp, TB-30 certainly newer... yet T-34C Turbomentor prepared me for successful carrier based & combat Naval Aviation.
Still fond memories of ole 'Charlie'

[smokinjoe64]

Originally Posted by Lady Jane

Just glad to be able to poach you from the e92 Forum.

[matteo]

Originally Posted by smokinjoe64

Cool matteo ...I was actually able to get Type Rated in both IV & V during a single lengthy, extended session in Savannah.
What platforms have you piloted?

That's a long time in Savannah. I went through IV initial with two Navy guys, it was an absolute blast. We probably had too much fun for being in school.

I've been on the corporate side my whole career. Lears, Falcons, Gulfstreams... currently on the G650.

Welp, TB-30 certainly newer... yet T-34C Turbomentor prepared me for successful carrier based & combat Naval Aviation.
Still fond memories of ole 'Charlie'

the -34C definitely wins in the powerplant dept, but the TB-30 is a lot of fun. It's my "other BMW."

[Llarry]

A-4 Skyhawk Part III -- Foreign and civilian users:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_A-4_Skyhawk

Israel was the largest buyer of A-4s. From 1967, they bought 217 A-4s of several types. The A-4H was the first type and was essentially an A-4E modified for Israeli Air Force use. The A-4N followed and was based on the A-4M. The Israelis modified their A-4s with an extended exhaust tail pipe in the hope that infrared-homing missiles would detonate slightly further from the aircraft. They also fitted specific electronics systems of local manufacture. The Israeli Air Force also obtained 46 ex-US Navy A-4s under emergency conditions during the 1973 war. Israel operated the A-4 until 2015 and is now the source of many civil-registered A-4s used by Top Aces. (See below)

Argentina was the first country to get A-4s. From 1966 to 1976 they bought 91 used A-4Bs and A-4Cs for the air force and navy; these were designated A-4P and A-4Q. After the Falklands War with the UK, the US embargoed spare parts for the A-4s. Much later, in the late 1990s, the Argentine Air Force bought 36 ex-Marine A-4M and OA-4M aircraft and modified them into A-4ARs and OA-4ARs; they served until 2016.

The Royal Australian Navy got 20 new A-4Gs and TA-4Gs from 1967 to 1971 and operated them from the Navy's aircraft carrier until the early 1980s.

New Zealand's air force bought 14 new A-4Ks and TA-4Ks in 1970 and operated them until 2001, when they were retired leaving the country without a tactical jet combat aircraft. In the 1980s, the RNZAF modified their A-4 force under Project Kahu, making the A-4Ks some of the most capable A-4s in the world. Earlier, they had obtained the former RAN A-4Gs and added a number of these to their A-4 force.

Kuwait got new-productions A-4KUs and TA-4KUs in the late 1970s; during the Gulf War of 1991 these aircraft saw combat before being replaced by F-18s.

Indonesia got former Israeli A-4s in the late 1970s and supplemented them years later with surplus U.S. aircraft; they retired their A-4s in 2003.

Malaysia's A-4 fleet was one of the most interesting due to the odd designation used; their former USN A-4Cs and A-4Ls were designated A-4PTM (Peculiar To Malaysia) They got 40 A-4s and flew them until 1995.

Brazil was a standout as they wanted A-4s to operate from their aircraft carrier. They got 23 ex-Kuwaiti A-4KUs/TA-4KUs in 1998 and operated them at sea for years; the Brazilian A-4s were essentially used up by 2022.

Lastly, Singapore operated a fairly substantial number of former U.S. A-4B and A-4C aircraft for a number of years as the A-4S and the odd TA-4S; the latter aircraft had a separate cockpit behind the usual one (see photo). Singapore also ultimately upgraded some of their A-4Ss with modern non-afterburning F404 turbofans and called the result the A-4SU Super Skyhawk. The A-4SU served until 2005 and was used as an advanced trainer until 2012.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST_Aer..._Super_Skyhawk

That leaves the civil-registered A-4s. The primary source for these was retired Israeli A-4s and the distinctive extended exhaust pipe makes an ex-Israeli A-4 easy to identify. The Canadian company Top Aces is the largest operator and uses their A-4Ns to provide aggressor (adversary) services in at least the U.S., Germany and Canada. Draken flies ex-New Zealand A-4Ks for similar purposes.

The 2,960 A-4s built by Douglas have certainly left their mark in war and peace and apparently will continue to do for years to come.

[smokinjoe64]

Originally Posted by Llarry

A-4 Skyhawk Part III -- Foreign and civilian users:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_A-4_Skyhawk

Israel was the largest buyer of A-4s. From 1967, they bought 217 A-4s of several types. The A-4H was the first type and was essentially an A-4E modified for Israeli Air Force use. The A-4N followed and was based on the A-4M. The Israelis modified their A-4s with an extended exhaust tail pipe in the hope that infrared-homing missiles would detonate slightly further from the aircraft. They also fitted specific electronics systems of local manufacture. The Israeli Air Force also obtained 46 ex-US Navy A-4s under emergency conditions during the 1973 war. Israel operated the A-4 until 2015 and is now the source of many civil-registered A-4s used by Top Aces. (See below)

Argentina was the first country to get A-4s. From 1966 to 1976 they bought 91 used A-4Bs and A-4Cs for the air force and navy; these were designated A-4P and A-4Q. After the Falklands War with the UK, the US embargoed spare parts for the A-4s. Much later, in the late 1990s, the Argentine Air Force bought 36 ex-Marine A-4M and OA-4M aircraft and modified them into A-4ARs and OA-4ARs; they served until 2016.

The Royal Australian Navy got 20 new A-4Gs and TA-4Gs from 1967 to 1971 and operated them from the Navy's aircraft carrier until the early 1980s.

New Zealand's air force bought 14 new A-4Ks and TA-4Ks in 1970 and operated them until 2001, when they were retired leaving the country without a tactical jet combat aircraft. In the 1980s, the RNZAF modified their A-4 force under Project Kahu, making the A-4Ks some of the most capable A-4s in the world. Earlier, they had obtained the former RAN A-4Gs and added a number of these to their A-4 force.

Kuwait got new-productions A-4KUs and TA-4KUs in the late 1970s; during the Gulf War of 1991 these aircraft saw combat before being replaced by F-18s.

Indonesia got former Israeli A-4s in the late 1970s and supplemented them years later with surplus U.S. aircraft; they retired their A-4s in 2003.

Malaysia's A-4 fleet was one of the most interesting due to the odd designation used; their former USN A-4Cs and A-4Ls were designated A-4PTM (Peculiar To Malaysia) They got 40 A-4s and flew them until 1995.

Brazil was a standout as they wanted A-4s to operate from their aircraft carrier. They got 23 ex-Kuwaiti A-4KUs/TA-4KUs in 1998 and operated them at sea for years; the Brazilian A-4s were essentially used up by 2022.

Lastly, Singapore operated a fairly substantial number of former U.S. A-4B and A-4C aircraft for a number of years as the A-4S and the odd TA-4S; the latter aircraft had a separate cockpit behind the usual one (see photo). Singapore also ultimately upgraded some of their A-4Ss with modern non-afterburning F404 turbofans and called the result the A-4SU Super Skyhawk. The A-4SU served until 2005 and was used as an advanced trainer until 2012.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST_Aer..._Super_Skyhawk

That leaves the civil-registered A-4s. The primary source for these was retired Israeli A-4s and the distinctive extended exhaust pipe makes an ex-Israeli A-4 easy to identify. The Canadian company Top Aces is the largest operator and uses their A-4Ns to provide aggressor (adversary) services in at least the U.S., Germany and Canada. Draken flies ex-New Zealand A-4Ks for similar purposes.

The 2,960 A-4s built by Douglas have certainly left their mark in war and peace and apparently will continue to do for years to come.

I can personally attest...AFFIRMATIVE!
The A-4 Scooter was the most FUN aircraft bar none; including my time in F-16Ns.

Pretty much 'analog' comparatively to more modern military platforms.
Yet a TRUE performer/winner for thinking, real aviators w/o need for all the computer/electronic 'aids', especially with A-4M power plant [J52-P-408].

Strap-in - Felt like became 'one' to do the mission; ACM or Attack. Just needed to KNOW limits and exploit multiple strengths.

Precisely why A-4s unparalleled operational success in NavAir for decades; both for training and Fleet Adversary roles.
That said, waxed and humbled many F-14s & F-18s drivers once in close.

Truly an American Aviation Classic:

• Design
• Performance
• Reliability/Simplicity
• Versatility
• Longevity
• "Pure Aviator Fun"

Most any fortunate Scooter driver will concur!!!