2011 335is: Is anyone else a little pissed?

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by SlamMan

Performance wise, the M3 is the hands down winner. It's is amazing how much they've made the 335is look like the M. Visually there isn't much different. Unless you own, or are interested in either car, it's tough to tell the difference.

When you put them next to one another, you can see the difference...just look at the fender flares.

-SZ

[footie]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Thats true. I actually think the front of the 335is looks great. The wheels are definately better than the stock e92 m3 wheels and the front actually looks just as good since it doesnt have so much of that "scream mask" look going on.

+1, the nose looks in better proportion than with the M3. Though I personally prefer the look of the stock M3 rim to these.

[MMMorish]

Personally, I think the headlights of the 335is look bloated and too much
1 series-ish and I'm not sure if I'm feelin' the gloss black kidney ring with the chrome verticle vents. The rear bumper and apron look way too busy and the wheels aren't nearly as nice as the 220M 19" wheels, IMO.

As for the motor and set up? I think this is BMW's way of introducing the F30 M3 with its TTV6. Considering that the 335i is losing a turbo and the
335is is keeping the pair (and configuring them ala X5/6 M), then this makes sense.

[MMMorish]

Originally Posted by MrHarris

And this is why I bought the M3. They DO NOT change the front at all, and they only refresh the tail lights. We won't see the F30 M3 til 2014! So enjoy driving the latest M for another few more years

+1
And it's still more than a few more years. The 08's didn't appear till 08', so I don't expect to see the 2014 M3 till 2014, which means 4 more years of enjoying our M3's.

[hooligan55]

Originally Posted by adc

I would like to disagree here - it's a perfect choice for the track. What you are saying is that it would cost too much to prepare it for track and there are other less expensive alternatives that can provide similar thrills. And in that context, I agree.

But a well prepared M3, with stripped interior, rollcage, fire extinguisher, Hans device etc. would be a devastating track tool, both fast and safe.



Again, since no car comes such equipped from the factory (unless you want a 911 Cup car), you are talking about significant investment to transform a street car into a track car. So at this point, the only argument against using an M3 is the initial purchase cost - which doesn't mean at all that the M3 is any worse for track work than any number of other cars.

Safety wise, would you rather trust a Lotus or a Corvette? Which one would you rather crash in (rollcage included)?




I would like to offer a counterpoint here.

I've been tracking my street cars since 2001 in the appropriate events for street cars (driving schools) and never came even close to wrecking any one of them.

Why would you assume a crash will happen? Just because some people with more money than common sense or talent crash their expensive toys (as in your picture), doesn't necessarily mean it will happen to a level headed guy like myself - who always wants to go back home in the same car he came in.

Now you can argue that I am deluding myself, except that my, umm, track record speaks otherwise.


If I wanted to be competitive (as opposed to just having some fun), then I'd probably start racing in a spec class - to gain experience, since they are so fiercely contested. But simply for having fun, I don't see any drawback to taking an M3 to track days.

Agreed on all points (or counterpoints as they may be).

[darkmercury]

335's are great cars... but...
It doesn't have the V8 and the official name of "M3."

Just like Corvette offers the Grand Sport but you still have the Z06!

It's nothing like natural V8 power!!!

[alms21]

Originally Posted by footie

Very well put.

Each individual has to make up their own mind as to whether they feel one car fulfils their requirements better than another.

This is exactly what I've been "preaching" on here for the last two weeks. If I wanted an M3, I would have bought one but the E90 LCI 335i that I just bought yesterday fits me much more appropriately for what I want/need out of a daily driver at this point.

[LemonOne]

Op,

You need to chill out.

[alms21]

Originally Posted by shift@red

congrats! you bought another 335 scot? sedan this time or coupe again? i told you youd be in an out of an m3 in no time, LOL.

Funny.

Yeah, I went with an '09 sedan. Looking for a set of wheels for it now and then off to GIAC for a "tune". I really thought this out (for once) and just realized I'm not going to utilize full abilities of the M3 (which I love....save for the hump ---- still not 100% sold on yet). The 335i gives a good bit more TQ (especially when GIAC is done with it), better gas mileage, and better ride for something I'm just not going to track. Contrary to what many in this M3 section here will say, it had NOTHING to do with cost and EVERYTHING to do with use and practicality.

[spmd11]

Well....at least "my" record.

I've owned at least one BMW for the last 15 years. In the last 5 years, I have owned the following:

2008 750i Sport
2007 550 Sport
2007 335 Sport
2008 535 Sport
2008 135 Sport
2009 335xi Sport
2006 330 Sport
2009 X5 4.8 Sport

Currently, in my family we have the following:

Son #1 2006 330 Sport
Son #2 2009 335ix Sport
Wife 2008 135i vert
Me 2009 M3 (** just got it three weeks ago!)

So, I have driven all manner of BMWs over the years. But...I have never owned or leased an M3. This all changed in December of 2009, when I accidentally fell on a silverstone e90 M3 sitting on the showroom floor with no one to love it! 6 months it had sat. With a deal I couldn't pass up, I am no one very happy owner!! I just hit the 1200 mile mark, and she is in the shop getting the fluid treatment. Regrettably, mine was the third M3 of the day to get a fluid change and the last remaining oil filter was broken!! Blah!
So I have to wait until tomorrow to get her back!!

Anyway, on to my point of the post. After 1200 miles and 4 weeks in the M, this is what I have discovered. IT IS INCREDIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One can talk all day about what BMs various cars look like in pictures and on paper....but no BMW drives like an M, period.

A 335 is a 335.

What makes my car so awesome is the steering, handling, power, engine response, exhaust tuning and looks. One of the most amazing things about this car is the throttle and engine response in Sport Plus of the M settings. I have the 6 speed, and when I blip the throttle for a double clutch action, the engine speed just rips so fast it is quite unbelievable.

I really don't understand how this car can be so fast and feel so fast with only 295ft lbs of torque. I'm no engineer, but this car rips my old 2007 335 that I thought was fast. And when I drive our 335ix just after the M3, if feels r e a l l y s l o w and unresponsive in comparison.

The sound of the engine alone is incomparable. The exhaust tuning is much more aggressive than the stock 335, and the sound of the V8, is...well, incomparable to the straight 6.

Need I go on?

The M3 has blown me away and it has far exceeded my expectations. When I see a post about an M3 vs 335 comparison, I just laugh inside now. Now, that is not to say that the 335 is a poor car. It is an awesome car. But I don't care what you the owner, or BMW does to the 335 to make it more 'sporty'. It's no M3! And I'm happy that BMW is proud to retain that distinction! I think that they are proud of their M3 as well!!

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by spmd11

I really don't understand how this car can be so fast and feel so fast with only 295ft lbs of torque. I'm no engineer, but this car rips my old 2007 335 that I thought was fast.

It's called force. Engine torque is nothing without the added benefit of the gearbox and rear diff which multiply that torque and deposit it to the ground in the form of acceleration. Most think they feel the engine torque. Well they do but not alone. Really they feel the entire force being generated by the engine (torque) combined with the gearing. The force generated by the M3 is far more than the 335i and more than erases the weight penalty of the M3. Comparing engine torque car to car is meaningless without consideration to gearing. Force explains acceleration when weight (mass) is considered. Torque alone explains nothing in terms of acceleration.

[spmd11]

Cool...okay so what is different about the M3 gearing, specifically, when compared to the 335, that puts more power to the ground?

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by spmd11

Cool...okay so what is different about the M3 gearing, specifically, when compared to the 335, that puts more power to the ground?

Different ratios...

Force is (engine torque x gearbox gear ratio x axle ratio) / tire radius

Acceleration is Force / mass

And don't think of torque peak. Peak also means little. Torque and force vary by rpm and gearbox gear. But rather than measure each rpm, measure increments usually at 500 rpm increments.

When you multiple the torque output at a given rpm increment and gearbox ratio x axle ratio (rear diff) and divide by tire radius you get the force at that rpm in that gearbox gear. Long story short is the M3 is producing far more force at the same rpm increments than the 335i (regardless of gearbox gear). The force is roughly the same until 2,500 rpms then the M3's force increases measurably more comparatively as rpms increase. At higher rpms the difference is significant...more than enough to make up for the mass difference. Thus the M3's chosen gear ratios combined with a very flat torque curve work together to produce significant force and subsequently strong acceleration...measurably more so than the 335i does with its different gear ratios and engine torque curve (power delivery) characteristics which is biased to lower and mid rpms.

[spmd11]

K, now I get it...very cool..thanks!

The actual seat-of-the-pants translation is real, that's for sure!

[brava09]

Originally Posted by spmd11

Anyway, on to my point of the post. After 1200 miles and 4 weeks in the M, this is what I have discovered. IT IS INCREDIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One can talk all day about what BMs various cars look like in pictures and on paper....but no BMW drives like an M, period.

A 335 is a 335.

What makes my car so awesome is the steering, handling, power, engine response, exhaust tuning and looks. One of the most amazing things about this car is the throttle and engine response in Sport Plus of the M settings. I have the 6 speed, and when I blip the throttle for a double clutch action, the engine speed just rips so fast it is quite unbelievable.

I really don't understand how this car can be so fast and feel so fast with only 295ft lbs of torque. I'm no engineer, but this car rips my old 2007 335 that I thought was fast. And when I drive our 335ix just after the M3, if feels r e a l l y s l o w and unresponsive in comparison.

The sound of the engine alone is incomparable. The exhaust tuning is much more aggressive than the stock 335, and the sound of the V8, is...well, incomparable to the straight 6.

Need I go on?

The M3 has blown me away and it has far exceeded my expectations. When I see a post about an M3 vs 335 comparison, I just laugh inside now. Now, that is not to say that the 335 is a poor car. It is an awesome car. But I don't care what you the owner, or BMW does to the 335 to make it more 'sporty'. It's no M3! And I'm happy that BMW is proud to retain that distinction! I think that they are proud of their M3 as well!!

+1000000

That was exactly what I felt after driving an E92 M3...the 335i felt so slow and unresponsive after that...I needed to trade it in for the M3.


Sorry 335i guys, but you don't know what you are missing.

[M3 vert]

Heres something to consider why the M3 holds the crown and can never be overthrown from its throne

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M3
With quotes like:

Critical Reception:
The M3 has received nearly unanimous critical acclaim from motoring journalists for its performance, refinement, and practicality. It is the only car on Seven Car Garage to receive 100% positive reviews.[23] Ezra Dyer of Automobile Magazine once suggested that "...car magazines generally regard the M3 the same way a four-year-old regards Santa Claus."[24]

Check this review from SEVENCARGARAGE with multiple links to the M3 from various auto journalists.

http://www.sevencargarage.com/Vehicl...rs/bmw-m3-2009

Long term Road Test:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...term_road_test

Performance Figures

How does the 335i/335is beat the M3, why would current M3 owners be pissed?

If anything they should be proud for what an exotic (although not being used in the right context ) i.e. exquisite piece of automotive engineering perfection the m3 really is

http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...bf11b014b4.pdf

Track Data and Comments

http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...8335e6f855.pdf

http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...a829b7bd11.pdf

I am a current subscriber of Car and Driver and look what DAVE VANDERWERP one of the experts testing the M3 wrote in that same long term m3 test article (I can scan that page and post it for those who want to see it )

"..I've long said that the Ferrari F430 is my favourite car, but after 13 days in the M3, I'm not sure the Ferrari is any better at delivering driving thrills - even without any "for the price" caveats..."

This really made my day when I received the magazine ,I mean to compare a BMW M3 and Ferrari 430 in the same sentence was priceless

For those of you wondering its the FEB 2010 version of Car and Driver, where they have the lightning lap and the first drive of the 458 italia


Now despite all these articles and automotive praise for the M3, here are some videos for those ignorant people who still dont see the light

FOR E93 335i vert OWNERS:
heres something to think about

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test

Car and Driver's Comparison's Test with exotics :

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Track videos with its competition:

Race ISF vs C63 vs M3 vs 350GT

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TOPGEAR BMW M3 vs C63 vs Audi RS4

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Fifth Gear's
BMW M3 vs C63
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Topgears BMW M3 E90 vs Lexus ISF
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I mean frankly I can fill this whole forum with links and videos that praise the M3 as the ultimate sportscar, but I think it might tick the moderators

But people hsve preferences, and my point is BMW is the one who makes both cars. They will not jeapordise there reputation and profitability by making a mistake like that, having a stock 335is outperforming a stock M3.

So 335i owners should get this thought out of there heads, the M3 is constantly being compared to exotics as it already walks its immediate competition! What does that mean?
I mean sure they all rave about mods mods, who gives a fuck?
I can mod my M3 albeit being a little expensive but it would run circles around modded 335i/335is, for example PencilGeek's M3


I understand its not the perfect car, (I didnt just say that )
but its yet to be proven otherwise

[M3 vert]

Originally Posted by brava09

+1000000

That was exactly what I felt after driving an E92 M3...the 335i felt so slow and unresponsive after that...I needed to trade it in for the M3.


Sorry 335i guys, but you don't know what you are missing.

Yet another reason proving my point, which is unbiased since he was a former 335i owner

I am not bashing on the 335 owners, but just trying to show you guys the light, on why and what the m3 is and why it deserves the respect it gets etc.

This current M3 received so much praise that the one-off special version (CSL) the M3 GTS got sold out even before it started production!

Its not a status symbol in anyway as some have mentioned, because its not the most expensive BMW M or flagship of the entire BMW portfolio like the 760.

Its a die-hard enthusiast's wettest dream

[AMOCHOSTO]

Not pissed.

1. I don't like the look of the 335 coupe (M3 coupe looks fine)
2. If I was just looking for straight line performance I would have saved $5k and got a C63.
3. No 335is sedan I needed a sedan. I am, however, nervous they didn't make a 335is sedan if they are downgrading the sportiness of the sedan vis-a-vis the coupe as corporate policy (eg, no next gen M3 Sedan) I am unlikely to be enjoying a BMW as my next car. If I wanted a coupe I would have bought a used 911.
4. I love my car, and couldn't give a s*&t about what other people are driving around.

[brava09]

I am pissed only because it's snow and freezing and my amazing M3 sits in the garrage....can't wait for the spring

[adc]

Originally Posted by brava09

I am pissed only because it's snow and freezing and my amazing M3 sits in the garrage....can't wait for the spring

They don't have snow tires in Europe?

I love driving the M in the wet/snow...

[alms21]

Originally Posted by M3 vert

Yet another reason proving my point, which is unbiased since he was a former 335i owner

I am not bashing on the 335 owners, but just trying to show you guys the light, on why and what the m3 is and why it deserves the respect it gets etc.

This current M3 received so much praise that the one-off special version (CSL) the M3 GTS got sold out even before it started production!

Its not a status symbol in anyway as some have mentioned, because its not the most expensive BMW M or flagship of the entire BMW portfolio like the 760.

Its a die-hard enthusiast's wettest dream

How often do you take that vert to the track?

[MKParris]

Originally Posted by MVF4Rrider

It's called force. Engine torque is nothing without the added benefit of the gearbox and rear diff which multiply that torque and deposit it to the ground in the form of acceleration. Most think they feel the engine torque. Well they do but not alone. Really they feel the entire force being generated by the engine (torque) combined with the gearing. The force generated by the M3 is far more than the 335i and more than erases the weight penalty of the M3. Comparing engine torque car to car is meaningless without consideration to gearing. Force explains acceleration when weight (mass) is considered. Torque alone explains nothing in terms of acceleration.

I wouldnt go that far. Its only the rear gear that is about .75 bigger than the 335i, that may make help to equalize (since the s65 has a torque deficit to the n54) but its not far more, assuming both are manual transmissions.