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01-07-2010, 02:09 PM | #67 | |
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Cheers, e46e92
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"...it's not about the money and not about the brand of the car, it's about handling,performance and passion......And that, no other car has all together like an M3........when you talk about the most complete car the M is invincible." --Tony Kanaan. |
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01-07-2010, 02:18 PM | #68 | |
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By the way, excellent job moderating this forum.
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All things are subject to interpretation; whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
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01-07-2010, 02:23 PM | #69 |
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...and a troll to boot.
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01-07-2010, 02:32 PM | #70 | |
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'09 Interlagos Blue E92 M3 (sold to a good home)
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01-07-2010, 02:32 PM | #71 |
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I suspect that in about 6 months, you can go home in a brand new base Grand Sport for ~$48k. If you wait until Dec'10, probably more like $44k.
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01-07-2010, 02:36 PM | #72 |
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No need for these overpriced German and Italian cars.
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01-07-2010, 02:38 PM | #73 | |
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At one of our local circuits there is a nasty off camber left hander turn 1 which leads onto a bit of a straight before a hairpin. Quite a high G corner. The lighter cars can take this flat and get good momentum in the run up to the hairpin. The heavier cars have to lift & some have to dab the brakes. Like in a CSL you can take it flat but in a normal E46 M3 you have to lift. But that doesn't prove my argument conclusively. What does is that the one guy removed his back seats, front seats and fitted race seats. That was the only change he made. Nothing else. Well guess what? He was able to take turn 1 flat, and on the telemetry he was able to attain 12km/h more speed at the braking point for the hairpin. I can't recall what the reduction in lap time was, but I think it was almost 2 seconds out of a lap under 2 minutes. That's just an isolated instance I can recall off the top of my head. It has so many other knock on effects. You can brake good few feet earlier if you have less mass. You pads & disks take less of a pounding having to drag down a lighter car. Your tyres take less strain with less mass around the corners. I don't know how you can say weight is not the key, how can a Lotus 7 with 60hp smoke your beloved RS6 around the tracks then? |
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01-07-2010, 02:38 PM | #74 | |
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Listen, you may have a problem with me but I think it's all to do with certain members highlighting solely the posts where I criticise something that BMW have done or either highlighting where another brand has been better, this is called keeping things in perspective, but the reality is that I defend the brand doggedly but only if I feel someone is wrong with their comments. BMW aren't threatened by other brands so you shouldn't either. |
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01-07-2010, 02:54 PM | #75 |
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M&M,
Again someone jumping to the wrong conclusion because of what I wrote without actually reading the words fully. I said it's not the only thing that's important and again declaring you my experience to be limited without even knowing who you are talking to. I could list you ten plus things as important but why bother. |
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01-07-2010, 03:04 PM | #76 |
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Well, I wouldn't push it that far.
The M certainly has its special place in my heart.
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01-07-2010, 03:19 PM | #77 | |||
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Yeah why bother, rather just focus on the 10 things to belittle whatever achievement BMW has done in this test. |
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01-07-2010, 04:41 PM | #78 |
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M&M,
OK the will address your examples just because I'm bored. While everything about you said about the effects of weight were true, but most of it related to the improvements when all other things were equal. Braking: weight increases braking distance, well only if you don't increase the brakes size. Lateral G: weight effects cornering speed, well only if the rubber isn't increased in width and the suspension parts changed to accomodate. Etc, etc, etc. So what I am basically saying is that there is always a way around the effects of weight and as long as the weight is low to the ground (CoG) then weight is only one of a handful of things that can benefits lap times. |
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01-07-2010, 04:41 PM | #79 |
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Hi All,
Just read the artical last night. Not sure if others noticed this, but they also did a 997 Turbo last year and it was the same time as a 997S this year and therefore slower than M3. Can anyone explain this? I wouldn't really read too much into the lap times to be honest. Mike |
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01-07-2010, 04:49 PM | #80 | ||
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But anyway, in this particular instance the Porsches have similar size brakes & similar size rubber so your points are moot. |
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01-07-2010, 06:26 PM | #81 | |
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Getting to the party here late. Lots of good posts here thus far IMHO...
Wait, wait another "what if" (as much as I generally dislike them...): What if BMW gave the magazine a version of the car with the latest DCT software which definitively fixes the downshift issue while braking? No, that would be asking way too much of them. Quote:
Now at the same time I am not saying that losing weight on your wheels or on any rotating parts is not more of a benefit than losing stationary weight. I am also not saying that losing weight at the rate given by the vehicles power to weight ratio is a less important factor than an equivalent power gain. In these ways weight plays a special role and it obviously impacts both speed and handling simultaneously. He gets it and so did Bruce with his Acura! I try to shut down this point of view as often as possible. Total BS. It is the same basic argument as the engineers point of view vs. the test drivers. Or an intellectual understanding of a field vs. an experiential one.
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01-07-2010, 09:42 PM | #82 | |
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01-08-2010, 01:41 AM | #83 |
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I won't go that far, that title is for Footie, remember
I joke...... Cheers, e46e92
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"...it's not about the money and not about the brand of the car, it's about handling,performance and passion......And that, no other car has all together like an M3........when you talk about the most complete car the M is invincible." --Tony Kanaan. |
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01-08-2010, 01:46 AM | #84 | |
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My opinion is not based on others, its based on what I have begun to observe more and more. I think I was blind to it for a while because to me you were one of the old vets, so I turned a blind eye to almost anything those guys do, but then I realized, dude, you just prefer kick the //M in the balls at every chance.....but I guess that is your prerogative, and every man, woman and child on these forum has the right to say whatever the heck they want. Cheers, e46e92
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"...it's not about the money and not about the brand of the car, it's about handling,performance and passion......And that, no other car has all together like an M3........when you talk about the most complete car the M is invincible." --Tony Kanaan. |
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01-08-2010, 01:58 AM | #85 |
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Swamp,
I was only highlighting that weight reducing is most beneficial when nothing less is changed, just like the examples that were mention above by M&M. But you are quite like about unloaded weight, losing from there is more beneficial per kilo an anywhere else. |
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01-08-2010, 02:05 AM | #86 | |
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By the way I wasn't disagreeing with you per se but rather with M&M.
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01-08-2010, 03:28 AM | #87 | |
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Unloaded weight meaning unsprung weight, for every kilo losed to wheels/brakes/suspension will be the equivalent to 6~8 kilos else where. P.S. I reread it too and you were right, I knew what I meant. Basically I meant to say out of all things that can be changed to improve lap time, reducing weight is one of the most efficient though there are others equally as good. |
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01-08-2010, 04:33 AM | #88 | |
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Anyone that has ever done circuit racing will tell you that maintaining speed through the turns is the key for setting a fast lap. On our local Formula 1 circuit we have class C Fiat Palio 1.6 cars lapping faster than M3's. And no, their power to weight ratio's are nothing like the M3's. But Kyalami is a high speed circuit and they can keep a lot of momentum through the Esses & sweeps due to their lower mass. |
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