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10-02-2008, 07:26 PM | #67 | |
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What people have to realize... Porsche is using an imperfect design and trying to make it perfect. The positioning of the 911 powerplant is so outdated and is now starting to put Porsche behind the eightball. Porsche needs to realize they need to abandon their old 911 philosophy. It is basic physics and weight dynamics. The rear engine platform is going to kill the 911, if they don't bite the bullet and change it. |
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10-02-2008, 07:47 PM | #68 |
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I would be offended if your opinion meant anything. Let the big boys speak
If times ranging from 12.6 @ 111 to 11.5 @ 124 from a single source are consistent you clearly should not be posting, period. If the times and performance are so spread all over the place that Car and Driver has to stick the cars on a dyno and call up Nissan to try and figure the mess out there is something suspect going on. Please try and remove your head from the Nissan's ass, thanks. |
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10-02-2008, 07:50 PM | #69 | |
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The GTR is a tremendous achievement, no doubt. That is not the issue, how can a car with the worst power to weight out of the bunch achieve lap times that a Porsche supercar does? Doesn't the time Porsche achieved with a production GTR make sense? If you look at the numbers and the specs of the GTR what Nissan claims just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. |
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10-02-2008, 08:01 PM | #70 | |
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I think people are holding onto the 7:28 too tightly...let's see what autosport does. Have no doubt the AWD system in the GTR is state of the art that could lead to better exit speeds and negate some of the power to weight ratio disadvantages.
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10-02-2008, 08:33 PM | #71 | |
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Give the facelifted tt PDK, 20-30 more ponies, a revised PASM and a more taut suspension and the disparity will lessen greatly. The GTR may still win out, but it'll probably be a coin flip; with the power to weight ratio favoring the tt and the weight distribution and, possibly, power application favoring the GTR. |
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10-02-2008, 10:19 PM | #72 | |
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10-02-2008, 11:14 PM | #73 | |
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And oh, I personally think they're pretty much all terrific cars. Bruce |
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10-03-2008, 01:01 AM | #74 | |
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The nice thing is with the diversifying they are doing maybe we will finally see Porsche take a mid engine platform past the 911 (Carrera GT doesn't count) as they will have other legs to stand on. Last edited by Sticky; 10-03-2008 at 03:10 AM.. |
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10-03-2008, 01:53 AM | #75 | |
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The GTR has a weight balance that is in between that of Audi quattros and the BWM M3 (i.e. 54/46). This means that the GTR will be able to brake deeper into the corner than the Porsche and with it's (generally agreed) most advanced awd in the world it can also get on the power sooner than the Porsche as well. P.S. RWD cars aren't quicker in competition, the truth is that AWD has an unfair advantage and were banned from every form of motorsport, with the exception of rally based forms of motorsport. P.S. It's not mob rules, this is not a bunch of idiots with no knowledge of the subject in question. Even if it was the facts speak for themselves, the GTR is quicker in every test that has been independently conducted, to deny this fact places you in the 'bunch of idiots' group. i.e. Pissing in to the wind. |
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10-03-2008, 03:07 AM | #76 | |
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I don't see any source to back up the claim that the GTR can get on the power out of a turn sooner than a 911, especially an AWD 911. Put me into the bunch of idiots group, I am not buying what Nissan is dishing out. Porsche knows the ring unlike any manufacturer, if they say it can't be done, it can't be done. |
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10-03-2008, 05:37 AM | #77 | |
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10-03-2008, 06:07 AM | #78 | |
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You think a 911 is an easy car to drive quickly even an awd one. I ask again, have you ever driven one in anger, I have and on several occasions and I can tell you that I would have more faith and confidence planting the GTR sooner than the Porsche. You are right in saying Porsche do know the ring as well as anyone, but as they aren't holding the title of quickest production car I would say it's sour grapes and a cheap shot. Their claim only holds water if proven true and at the minute the evidence from numerous independent sources is that the GTR is miles quicker than the 997tt and on more than 50% of the time quicker than the GT2 as well. There is no point producing figures to show that it's acceleration times are inconsistent without acknowledging that in the same tests it is proven to be quicker on the track, where I might add this discussion/debate is all about. I like Porsche cars, hack I have owned a few but to pull a stunt like this is beneath them. It has been done because the GTR is making their own cars look decidedly expensive, something which up to now Porsche has held the title of the best value supercars but not longer. If I could live with the firm ride I will definitely be in the market for a GTR, the thing is a legend in it's own time. |
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10-03-2008, 07:43 AM | #79 |
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I am as neutral as Switzerland on this matter. But one thing: The 'advantage' of 4wd in general to 2wd isn't that much. A Lotus Exige can go around a dry corner faster than a Subaru STI. GRIP is not TRACTION. In wet conditions it's another story.
Example: a few years ago at some pro WRC rallystages, DRY TARMAC. The 4wd WRC Subarus were SLOWER on some DRY tarmac stages than the(back then) FRONTWHEELDRIVEN(vomit...) Citroen driven bij 'world champion' Sebastien Loeb(F). So where is the AWD advantage in dry(tarmac) conditions? The fastest car ever on the Nordschleife was a Porsche RWD(LOL) 956(groundeffect matters!) in 1983(Stefan Bellof, RIP) And also a street legal Radical driven bij felow Dutchman Michael Vergers had rwd. Was a bloody tad faster than the GT2/GTR LOL, Anyway the ZR1 Vette and Viper ACR are faster than both GT2/GTR. So what's the point anyway? Der Stefan: |
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10-03-2008, 07:55 AM | #80 |
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Come to think of it, another example. Fifth Gear UK carprogramme(With Tiff, Jason, Vicky) tested (almost a year ago?)the E92 335i vs the Audi S5 on a UK track. 306BHP(335i) vs 354BHP QUATTRO (S5).
Vicky Butler-Henderson drove them both. 335i was half a second faster on the track. (Youtube footage is somewhere on the internet..dunno where sorry) |
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10-03-2008, 08:59 AM | #81 | |
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Bruce |
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10-03-2008, 09:23 AM | #82 | |
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Ever been to the Nordschleife? And driven there? |
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10-03-2008, 09:41 AM | #83 |
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Robin Hood,
You can not look at a single dry tarmac stage/rally and try to use this example as a generalised statement that awd is slower in the right conditions (i.e. dry surface), for a start the example you have given is a Subaru which everyone knows pushes the nose unless it's thrown into a corner (slippy surface) like and that doesn't make for either a quick enter speed or exit speed. And secondly the Citroen was also fwd instead of rwd so you were using the wrong form of driven wheels to start with. Next to use race cars as example of the quickest cars on the circuit is again defeating the point, these cars use special rubber, ground effect, down force, etc to achieve the desired results. The cars in question (GTR, 997tt and GT2) all have little or no down force worth speaking of, so all that is helping them get from A to B is the chassis, brakes, drivetrain and engine, oh and of course the person behind the wheel. There is a few things which can help your lap time on the ring, weight, balance, grip, braking ability, both stopping power and balance under braking, corner entry speed (part to do with braking balance and weight balance) and exit speed (ability to get on to the throttle as soon as possible), oh about of course acceleration between the corners. The Radical can master all of the above in spades and that is why it's soooo quick around the ring, but for the rest it's usually a compromise and the car with the least amount of compromises usually wins. The independent tests have shown the GTR to be less compromised on the track than either the GT2 or 997tt, and the reason we know this is with the other results, namely acceleration figures, here both the 997tt and GT2 are quicker. |
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10-03-2008, 09:49 AM | #84 | |
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P.S. You may be the only person here to believe that the 335i only produces 306hp. |
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10-03-2008, 09:53 AM | #85 |
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Footie,
I wanted to state that 4wd doesn't always have an advantage over 2wd, hence my 2 examples. The GTR is a great car but with 1700kgs a tad heavy, and that's why a E92 M3 is faster on the Nordschleife than a E60 M5 with about 90 hp less and a bit lighter. The GTR with 1700kgh and 480BHP + semislick tyres can't do a 7:29 at the NS in my book, a 7:45 would be more like it. Hence the REARWHEELDRIVEN ZR1 and VIPER ACR with sufficient HP and a bit lighter, where is their 'only 2wd disadvantage'? The Nissan tested had more than 480BHP maybe 550/600, I guess. And no I'm not a Porschefreak, au contraire.... My ex 335i produced about 320BHP. Sorry folks for having taken the 335ivs S5 example just because they are roadgoing streetcars on a circuit just like the GT2/GTR. ROFLOL@ Footie It was just a fine example.... People NEED to see/drive the NS in person. Then they change their point of view drastically At Hockenheim, Sportauto tested the 335i E92: 1min18s The Audi S5: 1min18.8s.... Footie, please don't treat me like a schoolboy, thank you. |
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10-03-2008, 09:54 AM | #86 |
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No. No.
And your point is? Are the turns somehow different at the 'Ring? How about this: One of the key reasons the Nissan performs so well on track in direct comparison tests, even when in those same tests the car is outgunned in a straight line by the others, is the fact that you can get on the power earlier in that car when coming out of corners. Bruce |
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10-03-2008, 10:05 AM | #88 |
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I think it is well know that the GTR has more than the quoted 480ps, I even gave a statement from a sales person at a dealers who openly admits as much. It has also been tested in the US and depending how much draintrain lose figures you place on it ranges from a little over 500hp to close to 540hp, I reckon it's somewhere in between that.
Either way, what you are getting for your money is a car which is quicker any almost anything else and in my opinion is way quicker than a 997tt on the track at least. |
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