Two vehicles I think are currently missing from the market

[Red Bread]

I think that the following two cars would be easy for any manufacturer to sell.

First, there's clearly a hole in the huge gap between a Miata and a Boxster. This used to be filled by the six cylinder Z3, SLK and even the higher output TT. But most of those have foolishly moved up to try to compete with the Boxster directly, or just died altogether. Hyundai April fooled a compelling looking roadster, and Alfa tried the 4C, half heartedly. But surely someone can offer a 250-300hp, 2,500-2,700 pound, rwd roadster in this realm, no?

Then there's my never ending quest for a smaller, Lexus IS/E46 sized rwd sedan that's available with a manual. Bonus points for a wagon. This is pretty much where the old 1er was, except the US never got it and it was a heavy bugger. The mock ups of a BRZ sedan were always kind of cool, and Mazda has threatened some form of Wankel/hybrid coupe and sedan a few times, but they seem committed to their current lineup and nothing more. Surely the Koreans with Biermann, Scheyer and others can come up with something more inspired than the G70?

Or maybe it's all just going to be a bunch of electric pods and I should assimilate. No more fun cars, just increasingly faster, but boring appliances.

[mremg]

I don't see it happening anytime soon. The two seater RWD sports car market is very niche and already served well by Miata and Boxster. It's easier for car manufacturers to pump out FWD-based hot hatches or coupes (like TT) based on existing platforms.

The RWD 'light weight' sedans already exist, but not in manual. That market consolidated into RWD coupes like 2 series and 2+2s like BRZ. A BRZ wagon would be great indeed but I don't know if it'll ever happen.

Have you driven a G70? I feel like that's the closest to your requirements. The reviews say it drives very similar to the Giulia.

[chassis]

Mustang
Camaro

Different DNA but they are sporty 2 doors.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by chassis

Mustang
Camaro

Different DNA but they are sporty 2 doors.

Yeah, would love a 5/8 scale GT350.

[XMetal]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Yeah, would love a 5/8 scale GT350.

I will gladly take a 3/4 scale GT350

[yousefnjr]

You can still buy the old ones

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by yousefnjr

You can still buy the old ones

Indeed. But my kid is in my car every day and the safety of older cars is not the same. I'm still debating buying my buddy's B5 S4 Avant manual, but know it's not nearly as safe as a modern car. Really kills my interest in a 60's GTV or Fulvia aside from a solo, weekend car.

[King Rudi]

I straight up expected this to be about Smollets "guns for hire"

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Now_Rudi

I straight up expected this to be about Smollets "guns for hire"

They could be the template for who shouldn't fit in the car I want.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

I can't help but think that two easy cars to sell exist for any manufacturer.

First, there's clearly a hole in the huge gap between a Miata and a Boxster. This used to be filled by the six cylinder Z3, SLK and even the higher output TT. But most of those have foolishly moved up to try to compete with the Boxster directly, or just died altogether. Hyundai April fooled a compelling looking roadster, and Alfa tried the 4C, half heartedly. But surely someone can offer a 250-300hp, 2,500-2,700 pound, rwd roadster in this realm, no?

Then there's my never ending quest for a smaller, Lexus IS/E46 sized rwd sedan that's available with a manual. Bonus points for a wagon. This is pretty much where the old 1er was, except the US never got it and it was a heavy bugger. The mock ups of a BRZ sedan were always kind of cool, and Mazda has threatened some form of Wankel/hybrid coupe and sedan a few times, but they seem committed to their current lineup and nothing more. Surely the Koreans with Biermann, Scheyer and others can come up with something more inspired than the G70?

Or maybe it's all just going to be a bunch of electric pods and I should assimilate. No more fun cars, just increasingly faster, but boring appliances.

Hummmm… Can you think of, say the Cadillac ATS? RWD, 6-speed manual, size of the E46 (it's target benchmark). Cancelled. LOL. Everyone wants a self-driving computer with 4G capability and wifi hotspot.

Oh AND for the first 3 years you could get such a Cadillac without CUE.

Car and Driver loved the ATS except... the back seat was too small, the trunk was too small, the windows were too small, and the gauges sucked.

[Red Bread]

The motors both sucked and the manual felt pretty bad too. Trust me, I thought an ATS or ATS V might be the answer, but after driving both, I was really disappointed.

Chassis was great, ergonomics were good and size was just about perfect. But the drivetrain, dash and details were all pretty poor.

[MJBO]

Nissan 370Z is still a good steer, comes in manual or auto and coupe or roadster flavours. Beefy V6 and RWD.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

The motors both sucked and the manual felt pretty bad too. Trust me, I thought an ATS or ATS V might be the answer, but after driving both, I was really disappointed.

Chassis was great, ergonomics were good and size was just about perfect. But the drivetrain, dash and details were all pretty poor.

I drove the 2.0T ATS extensively for a week. It was the early years 6sp auto, but I'm not sure why anyone thought the engine sucked. It made class-level power and was very smooth. I also drove a 2.0T manual, and I do agree the clutch and shifter was not perfect, I don't think it detracted from the ability to affectively drive the car and not take advantage of the chassis. I also drove the 3.2L (auto only) and I thought the V6 unbalanced the chassis a bit compared to the 4-cylinder turbo.

But I'm really not sure what you are asking, then in either case of the Miata - Boxter gap, or the MT RWD sport sedan replacement for the 3-Series(?).

I'd say the E89 Z4 is (was) the car between a Miata and a Boxter. With a flat-4 turbo, the Boxter isn't even a Boxter anymore in my mind.

Regarding the ATS, it is the closest to the 3-Series. It wasn't perfect, but neither is the E90 or F30 for that matter.

Not really sure what you are saying...

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I drove the 2.0T ATS extensively for a week. It was the early years 6sp auto, but I'm not sure why anyone thought the engine sucked. It made class-level power and was very smooth. I also drove a 2.0T manual, and I do agree the clutch and shifter was not perfect, I don't think it detracted from the ability to affectively drive the car and not take advantage of the chassis. I also drove the 3.2L (auto only) and I thought the V6 unbalanced the chassis a bit compared to the 4-cylinder turbo.

But I'm really not sure what you are asking, then in either case of the Miata - Boxter gap, or the MT RWD sport sedan replacement for the 3-Series(?).

I'd say the E89 Z4 is (was) the car between a Miata and a Boxter. With a flat-4 turbo, the Boxter isn't even a Boxter anymore in my mind.

Regarding the ATS, it is the closest to the 3-Series. It wasn't perfect, but neither is the E90 or F30 for that matter.

Not really sure what you are saying...

Just saying that a car company stands to profit from filling either gap.

The ATS 2.0T didn't suck, but it also wasn't nearly as good as an N20/B48 or an EA888. It seemed short of breath above 5k rpm and not terribly linear in power delivery. Sucked was too harsh, just firmly mediocre. The V was similar. It made good power, but didn't seem to want to rev and sounded like a Dyson. Others do it wildly different. Hell, the oft rumored ATS V Plus with the leftover 505hp C6 Z06 7.0L would have been glorious.

And that's the thing, the chassis of the ATS was awesome. But an LCI to address the gauges, CUE and engines could have made it wildly better. Before everything plugs in, I just hope one company has the chutzpah to try to make a proper, small sports sedan again.

[Red Bread]

As for the E89, it was heavy, had a dumb roof and was much closer in price to the Boxster than the Miata without offering the handling, balance or track abilities. Something like the E85 was much closer, but BMW continues to move away from that area.

[David70]

Building a smaller rwd 3 series has many of the complaints like the smaller back seat but the cost to manufacture it are virtually the same. Then as said before people compare it to the others in the segment and complain about the size. I don't think there is much of a market for a smaller 3 series at roughly the same price. Hyundai/Kia are trying for a less expensive 3 series but I think they will suffer with the brand issue and possibly the handling being mediocre.

I have had an ATS for I think 5 years (purchased used) and in many ways it was never as good as the 3 series and every review complains about the rear seat (no one riding with me as normally short rides and they are welcome to drive themselves) but combination of initial cost, expected long term costs (150k mile GM or 150k mile BMW?) and great handling sold me. I think most prefer a bigger car and virtually no one wants a manual so difficult for a manufacturer to justify.

[Red Bread]

Yeah, I realize that making a manual GTI work as my kid and dog hauler, as a 6'2" male puts me well outside of the norm. I just miss the size of our old B5 A4, which is roughly the exact same size as a current A3, but had full quattro, not the Haldex version of the A3/S3/RS3.

I drove a friend's E36 M3 sedan numerous times and would welcome something that size too. I don't need adults to stretch out in the back, just fit for in town trips and not need to be extracted like they would from a coupe.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by David70

Building a smaller rwd 3 series has many of the complaints like the smaller back seat but the cost to manufacture it are virtually the same. Then as said before people compare it to the others in the segment and complain about the size. I don't think there is much of a market for a smaller 3 series at roughly the same price. Hyundai/Kia are trying for a less expensive 3 series but I think they will suffer with the brand issue and possibly the handling being mediocre.

I have had an ATS for I think 5 years (purchased used) and in many ways it was never as good as the 3 series and every review complains about the rear seat (no one riding with me as normally short rides and they are welcome to drive themselves) but combination of initial cost, expected long term costs (150k mile GM or 150k mile BMW?) and great handling sold me. I think most prefer a bigger car and virtually no one wants a manual so difficult for a manufacturer to justify.

I'd be interested in hearing how the ATS faired mechanically for the 5 years you've had it. I've been toying with buying one in the near term.

[David70]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'd be interested in hearing how the ATS faired mechanically for the 5 years you've had it. I've been toying with buying one in the near term.

I bought my CPO and while it is a 2013 I still have about 13 months of warranty so I have paid for zero repairs. I purchased the Premium, it has a limited slip differential and seal went out a couple of years ago, then the CUE(user interface) went out a couple of years ago and then recently I had a problem with one of the front sensors that tells when you are too close to something or about to hit something. While I haven't had to pay for anything yet I also don't consider any of the problems to be that big of a deal especially over the 5 years I have owned it. I am happy with the purchase and with my current job I am only driving it about 4k miles a year so while at 55k miles at my current rate I am looking at 11 more years to get to 100k miles. I used to have a job where I drove a lot of miles and plan was to keep it to 150k miles.