Low RPM Hard Acceleration - Pre-detonation

[pbonsalb]

I was under the impression no tuners were raising the timing targets from the stock 32 degrees max because they know many cars aren’t even hitting the stock target under some circumstances.

I run a Vishnu Procede controlling 2 meth nozzles that spray into the air filter progressively following fuel injector duty cycle with a trigger threshold of 40% duty cycle. Timing is increased up to 5 degrees to a total if 37. I use only 93 octane. Also running an Epic Race tune (Dinan stage 1 before that and no tune other than the Vishnu Procede before that). Never heard a ping in the 9 years and 73k miles I have owned the car. Procede has been in the car for 6 years.

[ItsGary]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I was under the impression no tuners were raising the timing targets from the stock 32 degrees max because they know many cars aren’t even hitting the stock target under some circumstances.

I run a Vishnu Procede controlling 2 meth nozzles that spray into the air filter progressively following fuel injector duty cycle with a trigger threshold of 40% duty cycle. Timing is increased up to 5 degrees to a total if 37. I use only 93 octane. Also running an Epic Race tune (Dinan stage 1 before that and no tune other than the Vishnu Procede before that). Never heard a ping in the 9 years and 73k miles I have owned the car. Procede has been in the car for 6 years.

Alex said maybe 5 or 6 of us out of 2000 or so people are experiencing this.

[pbonsalb]

Then it’s not related to the tune. There is a different problem. I have read 2 possible explanations - fuel octane is not high enough or there is a problem with vanos. There are a few threads about vanos issues, but I have not followed them closely. Not sure whether a CEL always presents itself or whether the vanos is noisy.

[ItsGary]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Then it’s not related to the tune. There is a different problem. I have read 2 possible explanations - fuel octane is not high enough or there is a problem with vanos. There are a few threads about vanos issues, but I have not followed them closely. Not sure whether a CEL always presents itself or whether the vanos is noisy.

@Scharbag and I practically get the same gas. However that's just two of us.

I haven't found much regarding VANOS issues myself.

[M.Hagen]

Ionic knock sensing requires a healthy ignition system to operate properly.

Without reading through the entire thread to see if this has been suggested - I suggest replacing plugs and coils. You can perform resistance checks across the coils to check their health.

[pbonsalb]

You changed from a 92 octane tune to a 91 tune and said the problem was diminished though still there under the most extreme circumstances. Then you found a small deviation towards lean on bank 2. Then you changed to a stock tune and the problem is gone. You never tried the aftermarket tune with no vanos change.

If the aftermarket tunes are leaning the AFR a little to add power, then maybe the deviation on your car stacked on top of that to cause the issue. The stick tune is rich enough to mask it. But we can’t be sure that is the explanation in your case since the stock tune is also a no vanos change tune. We would need you to try the aftermarket no vanos change tune. If you tried that and the problem was gone then the issue is most likely vanos related, not AFR related.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

You changed from a 92 octane tune to a 91 tune and said the problem was diminished though still there under the most extreme circumstances. Then you found a small deviation towards lean on bank 2. Then you changed to a stock tune and the problem is gone. You never tried the aftermarket tune with no vanos change.

If the aftermarket tunes are leaning the AFR a little to add power, then maybe the deviation on your car stacked on top of that to cause the issue. The stick tune is rich enough to mask it. But we can’t be sure that is the explanation in your case since the stock tune is also a no vanos change tune. We would need you to try the aftermarket no vanos change tune. If you tried that and the problem was gone then the issue is most likely vanos related, not AFR related.

Similar issues on my car. Thing is, if I run 91 with VANOS adjusted tune, it clatters a lot. But if I add a couple gallons of E85 and try again, no clatter at all.

Next step will be to log the car on the dyno while running different tunes on 91 octane fuel. Thanks to COVID, that testing is delayed. For now, the 91 octane stage 2 tune with stock VANOS adjustments seems to be rattle free.

Cheers,

[ItsGary]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

You changed from a 92 octane tune to a 91 tune and said the problem was diminished though still there under the most extreme circumstances. Then you found a small deviation towards lean on bank 2. Then you changed to a stock tune and the problem is gone. You never tried the aftermarket tune with no vanos change.

If the aftermarket tunes are leaning the AFR a little to add power, then maybe the deviation on your car stacked on top of that to cause the issue. The stick tune is rich enough to mask it. But we can’t be sure that is the explanation in your case since the stock tune is also a no vanos change tune. We would need you to try the aftermarket no vanos change tune. If you tried that and the problem was gone then the issue is most likely vanos related, not AFR related.

At the time I switched over to a 91 tune I was still getting 92 Octane fuel from the US. I live(d) very close to the border and have a Nexus card so crossing to get gas and back home took 20 minutes in total.

I stopped entering the US after the government said anyone crossing for whatever reason has to self isolate for 2 weeks. Since then I've been filling up the car with 94 Octane. At first the sound wasn't as common to hear but overtime it got worse and worse. I tried Shell 91 to see if that would maybe change something instead the rattle got worse & was happening in first gear sometimes.

Now I removed my tune entirely and went on the stock map. The sound is completely gone. I've tried replicating in every way possible but now it's gone.

Anyways, I'd like to see what others have to say

[wyatth]

Well, enough worry and unknowns here that I swapped to the Dinan Stage 1 Performance Software. Feels identical (I noticed a nice difference when going from stock to the Alpine Stage 1), so surely it was money wasted in my case, but I'll sleep a little better at night. It's cheap enough where if someone is staying Stage 1 (they no longer offer Stage 2), Dinan is worth a consideration with their tuning expertise and history. To be fair, I had no issues with my Alpine software, so I'll leave it at that.

[pbonsalb]

I had a Dinan Stage 1 tune. Pretty much a waste of money. I now have an Epic Race tune. Much better.

[wyatth]

But you’re stage 2, no? So apples to oranges.
I was satisfied with my Alpine stage 1 for ~$500, noticeable difference. Dinan feels identical and is now cheaper. But is a stage 1 worth the $900+ total that I’ve now paid? Probably not, but that’s my fault.

[Alex@Alpine]

I understand everyone's concerns and work closely with the handful of you guys in this thread who have noises and concerns with adjustments meeting their needs.

Unfortunately these cars are aging with the early models well over a decade old and problems are going to arise. Fuel at the pump is not what it was 5 years ago either. Even shell our gold standard is falling behind. I constantly adjust and adapt the tune as time passes further adding improvements and always offering it to customers free of charge as long as they own the car.

I understand the finger is always pointed towards the tune first, it should be...I would look at anything aftermarket first also.

Including the OP I have had someone else who had low RPM noises pointing at possible knock/ping. Both the OP and this person returned to stock thought the noise was gone and it returned down the line as more miles passed on the stock flash.

wyatth I understand your concern and you should do anything that makes you feel comfortable, but I can tell you this much, for the many years I have been on this forum I haven't had a blown motor related to the tune. wyatth flash back or request a new tune and flash it in, I am sure you will feel a smoother drive and more power over your other tune.

As you all know the S65 motor struggles when pressed under 3K RPM in higher gears at part throttle. This will cause chatter even on good shape stock examples. The majority of the guys keeping their cars above 3K do not hear this, but you guys cruising around and applying partial throttle in motion at 2500rpm hear the chatter.

Somethings to keep in mind, throttle changes in the tune will change your driving characteristics. The noise is probably coming in from having the car in too high of a gear in speed and applying partial throttle causing the engine to struggle to pull. Daily drivers who are attempting to achieve optimal fuel economy will probably experience this since they are trying to keep their vehicles at lower RPM's. I find the E9X M3 to achieve optimal MPG keeping it above 3K when it's required to push the weight of the car. The less jerky/smoother throttle in the tune might have you under torquing the car at lower RPM's. Adding higher octane fuel/better fuel always helps with almost all kinds of engine noises, slower burning better lubing fuel.

At the end of the day I am not here to achieve top of the top numbers. I am here to provide a safe, fairly priced, optimal, and easier to drive tune. I have guys who have driven over 60k miles tuned with no problems and i am hoping to see guys doing 200K miles tuned. I offer free adjustments + updates to the tune for the life of the car not as a selling point but so you can keep enjoying and not get dinged because your steering is too stiff or you change stages. I encourage you guys to request a tune at least once a year to stay up to date specially if you are on 91 (95 RON) fuel.

You have a problem email me we will try to work through it. I rarely am on the forums or look at the forums.

[ItsGary]

Originally Posted by Alex@Alpine

I understand everyone's concerns and work closely with the handful of you guys in this thread who have noises and concerns with adjustments meeting their needs.

Unfortunately these cars are aging with the early models well over a decade old and problems are going to arise. Fuel at the pump is not what it was 5 years ago either. Even shell our gold standard is falling behind. I constantly adjust and adapt the tune as time passes further adding improvements and always offering it to customers free of charge as long as they own the car.

I understand the finger is always pointed towards the tune first, it should be...I would look at anything aftermarket first also.

Including the OP I have had someone else who had low RPM noises pointing at possible knock/ping. Both the OP and this person returned to stock thought the noise was gone and it returned down the line as more miles passed on the stock flash.

wyatth I understand your concern and you should do anything that makes you feel comfortable, but I can tell you this much, for the many years I have been on this forum I haven't had a blown motor related to the tune. wyatth flash back or request a new tune and flash it in, I am sure you will feel a smoother drive and more power over your other tune.

As you all know the S65 motor struggles when pressed under 3K RPM in higher gears at part throttle. This will cause chatter even on good shape stock examples. The majority of the guys keeping their cars above 3K do not hear this, but you guys cruising around and applying partial throttle in motion at 2500rpm hear the chatter.

Somethings to keep in mind, throttle changes in the tune will change your driving characteristics. The noise is probably coming in from having the car in too high of a gear in speed and applying partial throttle causing the engine to struggle to pull. Daily drivers who are attempting to achieve optimal fuel economy will probably experience this since they are trying to keep their vehicles at lower RPM's. I find the E9X M3 to achieve optimal MPG keeping it above 3K when it's required to push the weight of the car. The less jerky/smoother throttle in the tune might have you under torquing the car at lower RPM's. Adding higher octane fuel/better fuel always helps with almost all kinds of engine noises, slower burning better lubing fuel.

At the end of the day I am not here to achieve top of the top numbers. I am here to provide a safe, fairly priced, optimal, and easier to drive tune. I have guys who have driven over 60k miles tuned with no problems and i am hoping to see guys doing 200K miles tuned. I offer free adjustments + updates to the tune for the life of the car not as a selling point but so you can keep enjoying and not get dinged because your steering is too stiff or you change stages. I encourage you guys to request a tune at least once a year to stay up to date specially if you are on 91 (95 RON) fuel.

You have a problem email me we will try to work through it. I rarely am on the forums or look at the forums.

To further add on to this, Alex has been extremely responsive when it came to my concerns.

I still recommend the tune to my friends.

[SoCalRPM]

I appreciate Alex chiming in here. I know we all have our different opinions on tunes and how they may impact our cars. But as someone sorting out this issue I will point out that Alex has been helpful and accessible throughout.

[MisterClutch888]

i just did a whole bunch of research and posted on multiple threads in regards of this issue. @20 seconds of that youtube clip posted, that's exactly what i have now. Always noise in low rpm with hard acceleration. Like @Alex@Alpine said, if always on the lower gear and higher rpm, you won't hear this.

Anyhow, i just changed rod bearings, spark plugs, no.6 cylinder ignition coil and battery. Also the eisenmann race muffler. Also used Liqimoly 10W60 after the rod beairngs. I don't recall if the noise was there before any of those stuff, but don't quote me on that. im on stock tune.

So after reading multiple threads, i did put fuel injector cleaner and octane booster, with shell 91, there is definitely pinging. After this tank of shell 91, im going to switch to chevron 94 and see if it makes a difference.

What should i do to fix this problem now? Get a Alex@Alpine tune?

[Scharbag]

I have the Alpine tune (revised VANOS) and on shell 91 I get the odd bit of clatter at low RPM full throttle. This island gas is shitty. On Chevron 94, it is fine.

Not sure what you need to do next but good luck with the car!

[Banma]

FWIW, I'm in the same city as OP, had the same knocking after a 91 octane stage 2 Alpine tune, went away with Chevron 94.

Now, what I find interesting is that 2 years ago, I had an e92 m3 (which I sold for an F80 M3 but I found it souless so now I'm back in an e90 m3). That car 2 years ago also had an Alpine 91 octane stage 2 tune, also always on Shell 91, but I NEVER had this issue. That car also had a lot higher mileage than this new(er) car. Has the quality of the fuel really deteriorated that much?

[MisterClutch888]

Im too just a ferry away from vancouver island. Im guessing our gas might be the same?

I did the liquimoly fuel injection cleaner, just did liquimoly oil change with ceratech, then full tank of chevron 94. Nothing had changed for me.

No idea how to solve this, but im thinking a tune might be a potential cure.

[Scharbag]

Well, I feel confident in saying that it is not just bad gas here in BC, but that the tune has some underlying configuration issues.

To test, I further ran the stock tune on a dyno and had zero knocking. As soon as I switched back to the Alpine tune, I had significant predetonation. This was present when using 91 octane tunes with 91 octane fuel with both stage 1 and stage 2 tunes. If I added ~8L of E85 to the tank (which was half full), the predetonation went away.

Given that I was tired of having to be careful with my car (what is the point of having in M3 if you do not feel confident to mash the loud pedal), I decided to try a different 91 octane stage 2 tune.

Night and day difference. I have used this new tune with Dinan throttle bodies and with stock throttle bodies (cannot tell any difference). Regardless, no matter how badly I bog the engine, it never ever clatters. The tune feels good and lets me enjoy WOT without constant worry that I will hear predetonation.

I know I am not the only one who has had low RPM predetonation. It would be nice if the cause of this could be nailed down.

Until then, I will stick with my new tune or stock 240E.

Cheers,

[Audioslave686]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

Well, I feel confident in saying that it is not just bad gas here in BC, but that the tune has some underlying configuration issues.

To test, I further ran the stock tune on a dyno and had zero knocking. As soon as I switched back to the Alpine tune, I had significant predetonation. This was present when using 91 octane tunes with 91 octane fuel with both stage 1 and stage 2 tunes. If I added ~8L of E85 to the tank (which was half full), the predetonation went away.

Given that I was tired of having to be careful with my car (what is the point of having in M3 if you do not feel confident to mash the loud pedal), I decided to try a different 91 octane stage 2 tune.

Night and day difference. I have used this new tune with Dinan throttle bodies and with stock throttle bodies (cannot tell any difference). Regardless, no matter how badly I bog the engine, it never ever clatters. The tune feels good and lets me enjoy WOT without constant worry that I will hear predetonation.

I know I am not the only one who has had low RPM predetonation. It would be nice if the cause of this could be nailed down.

Until then, I will stick with my new tune or stock 240E.

Cheers,

yup, same here.

i had to move to ESS stage 2 and the issue went away.
low RPM acceleration is super smooth.

[DetroitP]

Quick question, for those with ESS stage 1 or any other for that matter, do you notice your radiator fan is always on even when the outside temps are cooler, or engine is cold?

I noticed my warm-up (heater) typically takes longer so as a result I looked into it and found that my radiator fan is on.

[Alex@Alpine]

If you are a current customer send in a request for our current tune (no special comments required) and give it a try.