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      05-07-2020, 08:57 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdott View Post
Hmm, interesting, let us know what you find.

I had a similar hiccup when launching the car on alex's e85 tune, there would be a like pause around that rpm before power kicked in again, almost like you were letting off and getting back on it. (DSC off)

My plan was to get my injectors cleaned/flow tested once things return to normal.
Tdott, my reco after a long conversation with Steve Dinan: just replace them. Don't clean/flow test. $60 per injector. Buy them from fcp and swap 'em every 50k miles
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      05-07-2020, 09:08 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Some people have datalogged and after 16k km the car starts pulling timing vs new plugs.
I change mine every 10k miles (16k km)

On my stroker engine, after 6k miles the plugs were surprisingly bad so I'll be changing those out more often
Good to know! I'll replace them for sure, I don't think they are causing my problem, but it's worth doing anyway.

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Originally Posted by tdott View Post
Hmm, interesting, let us know what you find.

I had a similar hiccup when launching the car on alex's e85 tune, there would be a like pause around that rpm before power kicked in again, almost like you were letting off and getting back on it. (DSC off)

My plan was to get my injectors cleaned/flow tested once things return to normal.
Just to clarify - I had this issue with the stock tune as well. Tune from Alex just didn't change it, and my primary guess was that stock tune just doesn't work well with a custom xpipe.

Did you check AFR? At what rpm was that hiccup you describe?
I am currently on a 100 octane tune.

Just looked up the injectors, they are dirt cheap. I might change them in some time since I am getting close to 50k miles (77k km currently).
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      05-07-2020, 09:29 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Tdott, my reco after a long conversation with Steve Dinan: just replace them. Don't clean/flow test. $60 per injector. Buy them from fcp and swap 'em every 50k miles
Price seems to have gone up they are now almost $700 a set.
I saw notes previously people were buying them in the $300 range for a set from FCP.
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      05-07-2020, 09:33 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strokemycocktus View Post
Did you check AFR? At what rpm was that hiccup you describe?
I am currently on a 100 octane tune.
No I haven't logged AFR yet. its around 2.5-3k rpm for me.
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      05-07-2020, 09:34 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdott View Post
Price seems to have gone up they are now almost $700 a set.
I saw notes previously people were buying them in the $300 range for a set from FCP.
I just saw them on ecs for under 60 a set. I've been looking at injectors as I'm getting bigger ones for the stroker. Sorry for the thread jack!
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      05-07-2020, 09:36 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdott View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Tdott, my reco after a long conversation with Steve Dinan: just replace them. Don't clean/flow test. $60 per injector. Buy them from fcp and swap 'em every 50k miles
Price seems to have gone up they are now almost $700 a set.
I saw notes previously people were buying them in the $300 range for a set from FCP.
In my country they are $30/piece. Talking about BOSCH parts of course.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by strokemycocktus View Post
Did you check AFR? At what rpm was that hiccup you describe?
I am currently on a 100 octane tune.
No I haven't logged AFR yet. its around 2.5-3k rpm for me.
Sounds about the same then. What exhaust setup do you have and how many miles on the car?
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      05-07-2020, 09:46 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I just saw them on ecs for under 60 a set. I've been looking at injectors as I'm getting bigger ones for the stroker. Sorry for the thread jack!
Sorry for the TJ.

Are you talking about spark plugs?
Injectors are $68.50 each. https://www.ecstuning.com/b-bosch-pa...647838440~bos/
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      05-07-2020, 09:47 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strokemycocktus View Post
Sounds about the same then. What exhaust setup do you have and how many miles on the car?
I am running beaker headers, with catless xpipe. Previously I only had test pipes and didn't notice this issue.
110k on it. Probably original injectors, coils and o2 sensors. Spark plugs are only a few months old, probably 2k miles.

Last edited by tdott; 05-07-2020 at 11:03 AM..
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      05-07-2020, 10:05 AM   #31
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I'd take everything back to 100% stock, running 241E (that's the current one right?)
Check fuel flow rate, ignition, compression, timing advance, and the plugs/coil packs.

Probable you've done this already, but eliminating every possible variable is the first step to an accurate diagnosis.

Our thoughts and prayers are with you my brotha'
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      05-07-2020, 10:41 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdott View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by strokemycocktus View Post
Sounds about the same then. What exhaust setup do you have and how many miles on the car?
I am running beaker headers, with catless xpipe. Previously I only had test pipes and didn't notice this issue.
110k on it. Probably original injectors and o2 sensors.
Looks like this xpipe has the "x" closer to the engine, just like the ESS one. Maybe that's something that makes the problem worse in cars that have something faulty. As I said, with stock xpipe I had zero issues. This one, both catless and HFC it's the same, just like you described it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bpark1977 View Post
I'd take everything back to 100% stock, running 241E (that's the current one right?)
Check fuel flow rate, ignition, compression, timing advance, and the plugs/coil packs.

Probable you've done this already, but eliminating every possible variable is the first step to an accurate diagnosis.

Our thoughts and prayers are with you my brotha'
Fuel flow rate is fine, timing is pulled for the low rpm hiccup as you can see in the graph I posted. I don't think I may have problems with compression and coil packs and have a perfectly smooth idle at all times and such good overall performance.

I agree, datalogging with the stock xpipe for comparison would be a good idea. Although I don't know if that would bring me closer to a solution - I want to keep the custom xpipe and as you can read SYT's posts, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it. I didn't put any weird mods on my car - apart from the xpipe I have a carbon afe intake (new mod, didn't change anything, the hiccup was there with the stock intake too), and Alpine tune (same story).
Basically the first mod I put was that xpipe and it was on a stock car. After that the car immediately started behaving like that. I have no fault codes, the only thing I can see now is that the car is running rich at the rpm that it feels weak. It's really weird, since other than that it pulls really great, and part throttle at low rpm is also very good (with good and stable afr as well).
Guess I just could avoid flooring it under 3k and let it go, but on the other hand I am very curious what's causing it.
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      05-07-2020, 10:50 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdott View Post
Sorry for the TJ.

Are you talking about spark plugs?
Injectors are $68.50 each. https://www.ecstuning.com/b-bosch-pa...647838440~bos/
If you know anybody with a WORLDPAC parts account, injectors are around $30/each for Bosch.
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      05-08-2020, 03:31 PM   #34
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Tested the original tune today. Same stuff, AFR drops at about 2.5k rpm. It doesn't go as low as 12, but I noticed the car runs generally leaner than with the stage 2 tune. The hiccup was exactly the same as with the tune, so it's definitely not causing it.

Cold start was the same as far as rpm goes, just louder - so most likely the secondary air pump doesn't engage with the tune I have (like it should), but for some reason the rpms still go up and the car sounds the same (ticking, like it has a leak), just a bit quieter.

What (apart from low battery) can cause high rpm (1100) on a cold start even with cold start deleted?
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      05-08-2020, 06:36 PM   #35
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So odd... someone else has a Alpine tune and a Bimmerworld Xpipe with cats in the secondary position and complains of low rpm sluggishness... I'm not sure if that existed before the xpipe install or not Audioslave686

Edit: and now that I think about another friend with a BW catless xpipe and an ESS tune doesn't complain about anything. Could perfectly be coincidence, I'm sure the Alpine tune is just fine.


The Bimmerworld xpipe is a high power design like the ESS one and many others, with an X as forward as possible
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      05-08-2020, 07:34 PM   #36
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I have the BW race pipe on the Alpine stage 2, no issues.
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      05-08-2020, 10:03 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
So odd... someone else has a Alpine tune and a Bimmerworld Xpipe with cats in the secondary position and complains of low rpm sluggishness... I'm not sure if that existed before the xpipe install or not Audioslave686

Edit: and now that I think about another friend with a BW catless xpipe and an ESS tune doesn't complain about anything. Could perfectly be coincidence, I'm sure the Alpine tune is just fine.


The Bimmerworld xpipe is a high power design like the ESS one and many others, with an X as forward as possible
I had stock x pipe and Alpine Stage 1. Everything was perfect.

Then I installed bimmerworld x pipe and Stage 2 and I started to experience some pre-detonation sometimes.

But I learned to live with it. Just stay higher than 2500 rpm. Lol

I wouldn't blame a tune for that. I think it is a combination of factors. I was flushing the ECU to stock and Stage 1, but the issue was still there
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      05-09-2020, 03:12 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audioslave686 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
So odd... someone else has a Alpine tune and a Bimmerworld Xpipe with cats in the secondary position and complains of low rpm sluggishness... I'm not sure if that existed before the xpipe install or not Audioslave686

Edit: and now that I think about another friend with a BW catless xpipe and an ESS tune doesn't complain about anything. Could perfectly be coincidence, I'm sure the Alpine tune is just fine.


The Bimmerworld xpipe is a high power design like the ESS one and many others, with an X as forward as possible
I had stock x pipe and Alpine Stage 1. Everything was perfect.

Then I installed bimmerworld x pipe and Stage 2 and I started to experience some pre-detonation sometimes.

But I learned to live with it. Just stay higher than 2500 rpm. Lol

I wouldn't blame a tune for that. I think it is a combination of factors. I was flushing the ECU to stock and Stage 1, but the issue was still there
I never said or thought that it's the tune, I have said that the problem showed up after installing the x-pipe and the tune has completely nothing to do with it. I just mentioned that I thought that a stage 2 tune will fix that, but it didn't, which doesn't say anything bad about it either.

Curious why SYT didn't ever have such problems with that xpipe then.

I got another Emissions check engine yesterday evening, I'm very curious what's that. I'll read that later and let you know.
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      05-09-2020, 07:15 AM   #39
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Here you go, once again fuel pressure fault code. I have the low fuel pressure sensor already on the way, I'll change it next week.
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      05-09-2020, 10:44 AM   #40
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I have also checked another thing - fuel pressure and fuel pulse in the datalogs I recorded. Fuel pressure stays relatively the same.
Fuel pulse readings mimic afr - they drop to about 8-9ms at 2500rpm, then raise to 12ms at 3100rpm and stabilize at 11ms afterwards.
Could someone tell me what does fuel pulse reading inform about?
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      05-09-2020, 11:45 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strokemycocktus View Post
I never said or thought that it's the tune, I have said that the problem showed up after installing the x-pipe and the tune has completely nothing to do with it. I just mentioned that I thought that a stage 2 tune will fix that, but it didn't, which doesn't say anything bad about it either.

Curious why SYT didn't ever have such problems with that xpipe then.

I got another Emissions check engine yesterday evening, I'm very curious what's that. I'll read that later and let you know.
True. We have a separate thread on a forum where people blaming tune for that. That's why I wrote that.

Btw I already replaced a low-pressure fuel sensor.
It had zero impact, however, I didn't have any fuel-related fault codes.

Sometimes I'm getting O2 sensor codes, despite I have only around 5000 miles on them
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      05-11-2020, 08:43 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strokemycocktus View Post

Curious why SYT didn't ever have such problems with that xpipe then.

.
I think the stranger thing is you and audioslave have this issue. There are many, many people running xpipes that have front-biased crossovers and very few complaints.
What i felt driving audioslave's car is a clear problem with the car even though it doesn't throw a CEL. For whatever reason it is not happy at those rpms and I'd bet a bmwlogger log would show similar results to what you see.

Again, I don't really think it's tune related, but something is wrong. Audioslave and another friend both did the same xpipe at the same time with similar miles on their cars, one of them has a alpine tune and the other has an ess tune, the ess tune guy doesn't have the hesitation.

If you are running into CELs then all bets are off, as even shadow codes will upset the ECU. But I guess we'll know better the day we switch tunes on audioslaves car to another tune.

(For the record, i don't have ess or alpine tunes on any current cars).

Every two years I swap my E92 back to the stock tune and xpipe and it's just a downgrade in every sense. A hesitation like you two are describing is not something easy to miss
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      05-11-2020, 09:07 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strokemycocktus View Post
I have a strange issue with my ESS xpipe - when I floor it around 2.5k rpm the car launches forward for a split second, then noticably slows down and picks up immediately after 3k rpm. Feels like the car is pulling timing. Not traction related, happens in every gear.
On stock xpipe it was all fine.
I had the catless ESS xpipe installed before and I can remember it was happening exactly this way, now I had cats welded in it, then installed and checked by a professional workshop which said there weren't any leaks.

Fresh gaskets installed.
Plugs are about 20k km old.
Car has 78k km now.
Throttle actuators rebuilt last year.
Second tank of 100 octane v power Racing fuel.

I thought that maybe it's just the custom xpipe with a stock tune thing, but I installed stage 2 tune from Alpine and it's still the same.

I'll post a video later.

Car has no fault codes. Where should I look for issues?

I had a very similar issue when I installed my MS catless x pipe . Except I was throwing misfires on one side of the engine . Car would also misfire if I came to an idle but not while cruising. Anyways mine was an exhaust leak were the header and the x pipe meet . The clamps were tight as hell on both sides so I didn’t think it was issue until I pushed up against the test pipe and it would slide up and down on the header clamp. If that makes sense. yet the other side Wouldn’t budge or move. But it Wouldn’t hurt to double check .
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      05-12-2020, 03:16 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by strokemycocktus View Post

Curious why SYT didn't ever have such problems with that xpipe then.

.
I think the stranger thing is you and audioslave have this issue. There are many, many people running xpipes that have front-biased crossovers and very few complaints.
What i felt driving audioslave's car is a clear problem with the car even though it doesn't throw a CEL. For whatever reason it is not happy at those rpms and I'd bet a bmwlogger log would show similar results to what you see.

Again, I don't really think it's tune related, but something is wrong. Audioslave and another friend both did the same xpipe at the same time with similar miles on their cars, one of them has a alpine tune and the other has an ess tune, the ess tune guy doesn't have the hesitation.

If you are running into CELs then all bets are off, as even shadow codes will upset the ECU. But I guess we'll know better the day we switch tunes on audioslaves car to another tune.

(For the record, i don't have ess or alpine tunes on any current cars).

Every two years I swap my E92 back to the stock tune and xpipe and it's just a downgrade in every sense. A hesitation like you two are describing is not something easy to miss
Yes, it is something strange definitely. Have you had this xpipe with the stock tune for a moment? I was thinking that maybe it needs some special tuning to take full advantage of the crossover being closer to the engine.

I have sent quite some time analyzing the logs and graphs, to me it looks like this:
O2 sensor finds too little oxygen in the exhaust gases at that rpm range for some reason (Lambda about 0.85, afr about 12.5) -> then it causes a fuel trim of usually about -10%~-15% -> then the fuel pulse width is reduced and therefore the engine has less power. All these readings have a significant dip at about 2500 rpm.
I was thinking what factors can cause a rich fuel mixture and basically all can be ruled out - MAP readings look good, airflow looks good as well, so it isn't poor air delivery for sure, fuel trim is negative and pulse width is reduced, so it's rather unlikely that the engine is getting too much fuel. Only things left are poor combustion process and false o2 reading.

I used to get some o2 sensor faults last year, they disappeared eventually but it doesn't mean they are not faulty anymore. Sprak plugs as I mentioned are 25k km old, so changing them will be also a good idea.
Basically I plan to replace o2 sensors and spark plugs, since they aren't that expensive. After that I'll check the logs again. If the problem still occurs, I'll probably ask Alex to prepare a custom tune for me, I hope he'll be able to address this issue.

My bet is false reading from the O2 sensors, since the reaction caused by them reading too rich is inadequate (trimming fuel does not improve engine operation, makes it worse). The only thing that is completely weird for me is that it occurs always and only at 2500 rpm. Not at idle, not at redline, not anywhere else in the rev range.
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