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      01-19-2017, 09:57 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdott View Post
Great points and very helpful tips!



Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe this tool is meant to measure the stretch of the bolt when it is torqued into the rod and the rod allows for it (S65 rods do not, rod bolt holes do not go all the way through. Also I don't think measuring the bolt for stretch after it is removed is going to be accurate.

I also don't believe it is possible to measure in an S65 without the rod removed from the block even if the rods allowed for it as they sit too far into the block unlike others which protrude below the block at BDC.
You are correct in that you cannot measure bolt stretch on the S65 when installed, but ARP still gives you a maximum stretch allowance of the bolt that once exceeded you must use a new bolt. You measure the length of the bolt before its first use and log its stretch on every subsequent cycle. Once it has been stretched beyond its limit it is considered defunct and must be discarded.

This is really only practical if you intend to R&R these bolts several times.
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      01-19-2017, 09:59 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deansbimmer View Post
You are correct in that you cannot measure bolt stretch on the S65 when installed, but ARP still gives you a maximum stretch allowance of the bolt that once exceeded you must use a new bolt. You measure the length of the bolt before its first use and log its stretch on every subsequent cycle. Once it has been stretched beyond its limit it is considered defunct and must be discarded.

This is really only practical if you intend to R&R these bolts several times.
That is not what I understood, but it's interesting and means there IS plastic deformation
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      01-19-2017, 10:08 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
That is not what I understood, but it's interesting and means there IS plastic deformation
Here is an excerpt from an ARP instruction sheet of their 625 set for the S65:

"[7] A log should be kept on the original non-torqued length of each bolt. Bolts that have any permanent deformation or have increased in non-torqued length by more than .001 in. should be replaced."

This is typical for all of their rod bolts across every make and model, though their dimension specification may be different depending on application or material.

Any bolt regardless of type, material, or application has the potential to stretch and be rendered ineffective. Their process identifies any stretch to monitor the hardware's effectiveness.
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      01-19-2017, 10:47 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deansbimmer View Post
Here is an excerpt from an ARP instruction sheet of their 625 set for the S65:

"[7] A log should be kept on the original non-torqued length of each bolt. Bolts that have any permanent deformation or have increased in non-torqued length by more than .001 in. should be replaced."

This is typical for all of their rod bolts across every make and model, though their dimension specification may be different depending on application or material.

Any bolt regardless of type, material, or application has the potential to stretch and be rendered ineffective. Their process identifies any stretch to monitor the hardware's effectiveness.
Yes, any bolt has the potential to get plastic deformation, but if you are in the spec it should definitely not stretch.

What they are saying is that if any plastic deformation happens, throw the bolt away. So, the bolts are designed to function exclusively in the elastic zone.

I would like their thoughts on whether they will ever deform plastically using 50ftlb for tightening torque
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      01-19-2017, 10:59 AM   #71
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More great info, thanks guys.
So judging by that spec from arp (assuming it is correct for s65 rb bolts). Then that means it is still useful to have that tool to measure arp bolts that are being reused to make sure they haven't deformed. I was thinking about it the wrong way and that he wanted to measure the bolts to ensure they stretched the correct amount.

Likely I doubt many would buy a $200 tool if DIY'ing the bearings for the first time, just to measure the before, but it's still good to know.
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      01-19-2017, 11:25 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Yes, any bolt has the potential to get plastic deformation, but if you are in the spec it should definitely not stretch.

What they are saying is that if any plastic deformation happens, throw the bolt away. So, the bolts are designed to function exclusively in the elastic zone.
Obviously. Every bolt is designed to operate within engineered limits... They wouldn't need to include step 7 on that sheet (and one may never need a stretch gauge) if there was a guarantee that every bolt ever shipped out would only be used within perfect scenarios. The inclusion of step 7 is insurance against all contingencies.

IMO, *flame suit on*, the whole topic of over-stretching ARP bolts for this DIY application is academic. I don't see evidence of anyone ever cycling a single set of ARP bolts enough to warrant monitoring stretch, much less replacement. For all intents and purposes, I file their recommendation to monitor stretch under their CYA department.
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      01-19-2017, 11:26 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deansbimmer View Post
Obviously. Every bolt is designed to operate within engineered limits... They wouldn't need to include step 7 on that sheet (and one may never need a stretch gauge) if there was a guarantee that every bolt ever shipped out would only be used within perfect scenarios. The inclusion of step 7 is insurance against all contingencies.

IMO, *flame suit on*, the whole topic of over-stretching ARP bolts for this DIY application is academic. I don't see evidence of anyone ever cycling a single set of ARP bolts enough to warrant monitoring stretch, much less replacement. For all intents and purposes, I file their recommendation to monitor stretch under their CYA department.
I'm aligned
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      01-19-2017, 11:30 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdott View Post
More great info, thanks guys.
So judging by that spec from arp (assuming it is correct for s65 rb bolts). Then that means it is still useful to have that tool to measure arp bolts that are being reused to make sure they haven't deformed. I was thinking about it the wrong way and that he wanted to measure the bolts to ensure they stretched the correct amount.
Yes, that is the point of the tool. But you're not wrong in your thinking of its use during rod bolt installation. It's just not applicable in this particular engine due to the rod design. Generally speaking, torquing to a bolt stretch spec is the best way to ensure proper and consistent tightness across every fastener.
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      01-28-2017, 06:58 PM   #75
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Is it necessary to buy new bolts for the oil pan or can you reuse the old bolts?
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      01-28-2017, 08:04 PM   #76
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I reused my oil pan bolts in 2014.
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      01-29-2017, 09:45 AM   #77
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I reused also and have a set of new if anyone wants to buy them as backups.
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      01-29-2017, 08:17 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLKLYZ View Post
Is it necessary to buy new bolts for the oil pan or can you reuse the old bolts?
both cars I've done so far had oil pan bolts that looked brand spanking new. I also have a set of new ones but I did not use them
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      01-29-2017, 08:27 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by ///Mobbin View Post
I reused also and have a set of new if anyone wants to buy them as backups.
PM price please. I'm on the edge about buying or reusing. I'm a bit OCD.
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      01-29-2017, 08:32 PM   #80
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I reused on the three I did. However, I had a couple spares of each in case I buggered the torx heads up while taking them out with my electric ratchet wrenches. No issues.
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      01-29-2017, 09:05 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLKLYZ View Post
PM price please. I'm on the edge about buying or reusing. I'm a bit OCD.
I'll look up what I paid and PM you in the morning. A bit OCD here also and I still didn't reuse them but always good to have backups on hand. I have the oil pickup gaskets also, reused them as well. Happy to give a fair price and then you can re-sell if you don't use them.
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      01-29-2017, 09:12 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Mobbin View Post
I'll look up what I paid and PM you in the morning. A bit OCD here also and I still didn't reuse them but always good to have backups on hand. I have the oil pickup gaskets also, reused them as well. Happy to give a fair price and then you can re-sell if you don't use them.
Ok Thanks.
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      02-15-2017, 09:23 AM   #83
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I will probbably do this job on my E92 this weekend, I've done it on an E39 before however I removed the entire from subframe.

How is access with the Subframe hanging? I am going to use new OEM bolts which require tightening using an angle gauge. Is it possible to use that?
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      02-15-2017, 09:29 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khizrs View Post
I will probbably do this job on my E92 this weekend, I've done it on an E39 before however I removed the entire from subframe.

How is access with the Subframe hanging? I am going to use new OEM bolts which require tightening using an angle gauge. Is it possible to use that?
It felt pretty similar to our old E46M3's rod bearings.

With the subframe hanging you have pretty good access. It wasn't a deal breaker, especially with the BE bolts. Once the oil pan is out of the way you have almost perfect access.

I wouldn't use OEM bolts because of the tightening procedure, however, I used OEM bolts on my E46M with the hanging subframe method and it was a PITA. Just remember to rehearse the movement you are trying to accomplish before actually tightening.

The reason I went with OEM bolts for my E46M is that there were rumors it bent the cap out of round. Those were finally confirmed with both the E46 and E9X, so I went with BE-ARP the second time around because the OEM bolts are a PITA to tighten
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      02-15-2017, 09:38 AM   #85
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I learned the hard way. Just drop the subframe if you're using OE bolts.
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      02-15-2017, 09:38 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khizrs View Post
I will probbably do this job on my E92 this weekend, I've done it on an E39 before however I removed the entire from subframe.

How is access with the Subframe hanging? I am going to use new OEM bolts which require tightening using an angle gauge. Is it possible to use that?
It's really a PITA to do it with the subframe hanging. For the minimal extra work it's just better to remove it altogether to save yourself the frustration.
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      02-15-2017, 06:10 PM   #87
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Do the ARP bolts just go to a torque measurement rather than angle gauge job?
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      02-15-2017, 06:54 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khizrs View Post
Do the ARP bolts just go to a torque measurement rather than angle gauge job?
Both regular arp and the be'arp bolts are straight torqued to a value. This is a huge improvement and reduced not only time but chance for error
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