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      05-17-2020, 09:08 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=51_5851

check out parts 3, 6, and 7. according to the listed weights, there is about 13 lbs of material there. that doesn't include the floor or trans tunnel. it does look like a pain, but i have some nice scissors i used to quickly get rid of the trunk trim. thanks for the help!
I think #3 is on the fire wall behind the engine. I took off the intake plenum and secondary air pump to cut as much of it out as I could in my quest for more engine sound in-cabin, after scouring the realoem diagrams as well haha. Would need engine out to get it all.
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      05-17-2020, 09:12 PM   #46
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I think #3 is on the fire wall behind the engine. I took off the intake plenum and secondary air pump to cut as much of it out as I could in my quest for more engine sound in-cabin, after scouring the realoem diagrams as well haha. Would need engine out to get it all.
aah, i see. well #7 appears to be inside and is a majority of the weight at a little over 11lbs.
i like the way the car sounds with the middle carpet gone and might go back for the front carpet and tunnel...
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      05-17-2020, 09:15 PM   #47
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aah, i see. well #7 appears to be inside and is a majority of the weight at a little over 11lbs.
i like the way the car sounds with the middle carpet gone and might go back for the front carpet and tunnel...
Yea I bet the front carpet blocks a lot of sound. I just want to keep the carpet under my feet and I'm not feeling motivated to take out the dash after all of the work I just did lol.
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      05-17-2020, 09:33 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=51_5851

check out parts 3, 6, and 7. according to the listed weights, there is about 13 lbs of material there. that doesn't include the floor or trans tunnel. it does look like a pain, but i have some nice scissors i used to quickly get rid of the trunk trim. thanks for the help!
No worries, would love to see how much you end up being able to take off! I trimmed a bit off so it shaved a few pounds (maybe..), I've found realoem weights to be hit and miss so hopefully it's fairly accurate if you go through all the hassle

Have you thought of/already removed any sound deadening from under the carpet?
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      05-17-2020, 09:55 PM   #49
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i've noticed a few realoem weights being grossly off, like a couple hundred pounds... like a decimal point was off or someone double tapped on a few of the numbers.

i was bummed the other day, i had the front bumper off to replace the crashbar bolts with titanium to find out i bought the wrong size... they are m8 as opposed to m12 like the rear. oh well.

i'm going to take a look at the front radiator support. might be a fun thing to drill out and lighten up. some parts like that i like to get a second piece and drill it out before hand in case i screw it up or find its not worth the hassle. that way i'm not out a ton of time. might also look at drilling up the windshield wiper arms.
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      05-18-2020, 12:58 AM   #50
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roastbeef If you have the bumper off, check out the aluminum brackets that the trans cooler and intake ducts are screwed to at the ducts' inside mounting points (also the bracket the bowden cables for the original undertray are attached to). You could probably chop some of that off, especially if you aren't using bowden cables anymore. I actually used this mounting point of the ducts to mount my splitter rods. It worked quite nicely without needing to route through the bumper, and provides support right at the mouths of my splitter tunnels.
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      05-18-2020, 02:02 AM   #51
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Bartledoo i had a look at the brackets. they are pretty thin aluminum and are already cut/stamped pretty good. i don't have a machine shop here, i'm using an unmounted vice to help hold some things as i drill out the pilot holes.

i'm still using the cables. my gt4 style splitter is integrated into the felt/bumper and it all comes off in one piece. its fairly easy to take on and off, but its not what i would call a "quick change" piece.

i considered getting a single horn, or disconnecting one or the other "high and low" oem horns, and then chopping the bracket down and moving the single horn to the most inboard location. i think the horn bracket also somewhat holds the lower intake ducting. i've been eyeballing the m24 "optimized" lower intake duct as well, but i can think of a few other things that i actually need for $300+.

i'm not going to mess with the trans cooler because i have a do88 cooler sitting in the garage and its a little bulkier and i don't want to screw with it if i need more rigidity there.

i'm going to punch a hole in the center hood latch brace piece. (part number 51647116693). there is a black piece of plastic that can be ditched with a nice hunk of stainless that needs a hole in it.

if i find a local front radiator support, i'll buy one and go to town. i need it to be somewhat cheap in case it just gets unusable and turns into a sacrifice to the gods of speed. i'm not sure if it is 100% metal frame with plastic over it. the tabs appear to be plastic, but i know it has some metal in it from when i sliced a tiny bit for my hood vents. real oem says it weighs 10.3 lbs.
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      05-30-2020, 10:02 AM   #52
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A few small updates. Unfortunately we should be at the track right now.. but our day ended up being postponed The car is pretty much ready to go for this season now, not many changes will be made until some testing is done. Here's what a few things we've done in the last few weeks.

Last season we were still running doors with stock glass and working window motors. We wanted an option with functional windows as we get a fair amount of wet days here and wanted the connivence of working windows for these situations. The downside, unexpectedly, was the doors were not light. Our doors from last season weighed in at 70lbs each. We knew this was something we wanted to address in the near future. Initially we were going to go the fibreglass route, but after talking with OG Shark he had fitment and quality issues with his fibreglass doors and that steered me away from that option. The carbon ones from Bimmerworld were the next option, but given the current economic situation, these would have been basically $5k by the time they ship over the border, duties and take into account the weak CAD dollar. That was a bit too much to justify for just doors right now - so we picked up a set of OEM doors locally. We gutted these doors, painted them as they were originally black, and threw on some lightweight race mirrors.





We wanted to have lexan windows that were; removable, framed, and fit into the factory location (ie. it tucked up around the window seal like an OEM window). The latter is needed because otherwise the top of the lexan window would be sucked out, away from the car, at higher speeds due to the pressure difference inside vs. outside the car. Thus, a frame was needed to shape the lexan to fit identically to an OEM window, and close up where the OEM windows closes. This is a lot trickier than it sounds because, as you know, the E92's glass pulls down a bit when you open the door, then when closed goes back up a bit to create a good seal. Long story short, we got it to work, it took a lot of trail and error, but the end result turned out quite good.







All said and done the new doors weigh 35lbs each, for a total weight savings of 70lbs. Still quite heavy, but considering the doors, mirrors, lexan and aluminum frame material and paint ended up costing a total of ~$500, we feel that it was a good $/weight saving solution.

Next we wanted to address from tire clearance. Our KW competition setup came standard with a helper and main spring. Unfortunately, the original setup limited us to running ~275's up front. Initially this didn't bother us, as we figured if we wanted more grip we'd simply step up to a stickier tire. However, due to the nature of the NASA rules, we feel the car will be better setup being on a wider, less sticky tire (RR, AR1, NT01) and being able to run lighter min weight - this is a whole other conversation in itself.

Anyways! From delivery our setup came with a 10-60-80 helper spring (10 is the rate in N/mm, 60 is the spring diameter and 80 the length). We did not want to simply remove the helper spring like many people with Clubsports do, we spoke to KW and they said this could be done but it is not recommended. Instead we came up moving to a different helper spring that would compress more when weighted. This would allow us to move the the lower perch to increase tire clearance while still running a helper spring. The replacement helper spring is a 3-60-80, so same length, but a softer rate. From the picture below you can see the new spring has thinner coils. This new helper spring would compress to be 12mm smaller than the standard helper spring, allowing us to move the lower spring perch up 12mm for increased clearance while still maintaining the same ride height. After swapping out the helpers, the 295's appear like they will work up front. The picture below is with 12.5mm spacers, running about 5mm clearance from the widest part of the tire to the lower spring perch. We might be able to go to a 15mm spacer and provide more clearance to the perch, but we need to drive the car first to find out.
Ride height looks so high compared to before, even though it hasn't changed. These 295's are almost 1" smaller than the 275's we ran before giving the impression of increased ride height.


One the left the new helper spring (notice the thinner coils lending to a shorter compressed height). On the right the standard helper spring.


295's fit up front now






Next, we swapped in a lighter battery we picked up from NAPA . While shorter, it fit into the stock battery tray. OEM battery weighed in at 56lbs, the new battery weighed in at 32lbs. 24lb weight savings for $200, we'll take it!


The 'lighter-weight' NAPA special

Lastly we weighed the car and gave it a quick and dirty corner balance. Unfortunately I forget to take a before picture, but the cross weight initially was at 55%. We got it down to ~50.5% and called it good enough for now.

Last year, we weighed the car at 3501lbs, with driver. Here is the updated weight(s). This is with driver and 7/8 tank:




That's all for now. The car is pretty much done for the most part, just need to actually get to the track so we can finish sorting out the shock settings. Hopefully the next update will be after a track day!
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      05-30-2020, 05:53 PM   #53
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Small follow-up/caveat to the previous post: As I mentioned, carbon doors would be still significantly lighter then the gutted door setup we recently put on. However, given the nature of the NASA rules, doing so wouldn't be worth while for us. Given the current weight of the car with driver of 3388lbs, and figuring in 7/8 tank worth of fuel - near empty tank weight puts us at ~3310lbs. For the power we're running, tires and tire sizes we are using, our minimum competition weight for TT/ST3 is 3310lbs. Thus, any more significant weight reduction would result in either having to add ballast, or reducing power.

We are also limited to a 100TW (or higher) tire at this configuration. Going to a stickier tire, like an A7/R1S or a Slick, will result in significant weight needing to be added or a big power restriction. For example, if we wanted to run Pirelli slicks, we would need to add almost 300lbs as our min weight gets increased to just over 3600lbs OR a 47whp power reduction!

To me, I'd prefer to have a lighter car running a less sticky tire and optimism the car around that. I think the NASA rules do a fairly good job at balancing things out, meaning that the lap times of the car with slicks and the added weight would likely be close to what we are expecting out of the car at its current weight with RR's.

Unfortunately, racing for this year in my area has been indefinitely postponed due to the virus and guidelines put out by the gov't. So this season our number 1 priority is getting the car as sorted as possible in preparation for competition next year. We got within 1.5 seconds of the ST3 lap record at our home track last season. Hopefully with some more seat time, setup tweaks, the weight reduction and increased front tire size we can 'unofficially' beat that time this season.

I'll try my best to keep the thread updated with some onboard videos and more from upcoming track events this summer.
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      05-30-2020, 08:04 PM   #54
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the weight optimization game would be a fun one to play... i'd love to get rid of weight in the hood/trunk and move it more central in the car by adding ballast weight in a more favorable area.
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      05-30-2020, 08:34 PM   #55
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the weight optimization game would be a fun one to play... i'd love to get rid of weight in the hood/trunk and move it more central in the car by adding ballast weight in a more favorable area.
That is true and something we might look into going forward. Unfortunately I can't think of any obvious areas where fairly significant weight reduction up front can occur? The obvious one that comes to mind is the hood, but the OEM one is already aluminum - I'd have to look into how much lighter a carbon hood would be.
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      05-30-2020, 08:36 PM   #56
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I think ideally more weight would be moved behind the rear axle to improve traction and rear grip. Our current weight distribution isn't bad, but if I could move weight around I put probably op to stick it behind the rear wheels.
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      05-30-2020, 11:34 PM   #57
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-you could save around 12 lbs with a carbon hood
-save 8 lbs with a karbonius intake (i'm not sure what you're running, but its a high point in the front of the car).
-i'd consider drilling the front radiator support is a little over 10lbs. you could probably punch holes in the top of that and drop some weight.
-hood pins will drop about 3lbs according to slicer.

i'm not any kind of race engineer, i'm just a guy with too much time on his hands to think about this stuff- but i imagine you could tune the car if you start taking more weight out of the rear- more angle on the wing, less pressure in the tires, maybe less camber in the rear tires, softer spring rate, less swaybar.

-move that battery to behind the passenger seat on the floor
-run carbon blanks or just lenses for the headlights.
-titanium hardware in various places under the hood if you want to get really stupid
-lose the windshield wipers or just run one
-i'm going to assume your window washer fluid tank is gone
-ap racing brakes will save you 14lbs if you just run the front (rotating weight!)
-carbon driveshaft will save about 12 lbs (rotating weight!)
-carbon trunk (also lose the trunk struts, they weigh 14 oz!)
-drill the rear arches in the trunk
-get rid of the horns if you haven't already
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      05-31-2020, 12:12 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
-you could save around 12 lbs with a carbon hood
-save 8 lbs with a karbonius intake (i'm not sure what you're running, but its a high point in the front of the car).
-i'd consider drilling the front radiator support is a little over 10lbs. you could probably punch holes in the top of that and drop some weight.
-hood pins will drop about 3lbs according to slicer.

i'm not any kind of race engineer, i'm just a guy with too much time on his hands to think about this stuff- but i imagine you could tune the car if you start taking more weight out of the rear- more angle on the wing, less pressure in the tires, maybe less camber in the rear tires, softer spring rate, less swaybar.

-move that battery to behind the passenger seat on the floor
-run carbon blanks or just lenses for the headlights.
-titanium hardware in various places under the hood if you want to get really stupid
-lose the windshield wipers or just run one
-i'm going to assume your window washer fluid tank is gone
-ap racing brakes will save you 14lbs if you just run the front (rotating weight!)
-carbon driveshaft will save about 12 lbs (rotating weight!)
-carbon trunk (also lose the trunk struts, they weigh 14 oz!)
-drill the rear arches in the trunk
-get rid of the horns if you haven't already
Haha, those are some awesome ideas!

However, I'd be much more inclined to drop down to TT/ST2 and employ some of these measures to try to get my weight down low enough to be competitive in that class.

While cool ideas, I just have a real hard time justifying spending money on some of those carbon parts to just just need to fab up some way to mount a plate of steel to the car And a lot of the other options, while free, would require a decent amount of work to again, put a plate of steel somewhere in it's place :|

We have some long-term plans for the car that would be pretty cool if we decide to go that route, but that's years away at this point. So far we only got 7 days on track since completing the build so still lots of learning and improvement with the current setup to be done!
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      05-31-2020, 12:29 AM   #59
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i get it, some of it is expensive. some of the stuff i come up with is nutty and raises eyebrows. lol
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      06-01-2020, 11:54 AM   #60
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Doors came out great! The finish quality you & your dad put out from the garage is awesome.

Weight vs HP vs tires is a fun game! We originally targeted ST3 too until we realized it was pretty dead here in Texas right now. Sounds like you already have a pretty good base to start with being that close to the ST3 record at your home track.
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      06-01-2020, 12:20 PM   #61
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Doors came out great! The finish quality you & your dad put out from the garage is awesome.

Weight vs HP vs tires is a fun game! We originally targeted ST3 too until we realized it was pretty dead here in Texas right now. Sounds like you already have a pretty good base to start with being that close to the ST3 record at your home track.
Thanks!

ST3 and ST4 seem to be growing in popularity here. ST1 is fairly popular as well, while ST2 consistently appears to be the smallest class.

That's the goal. Our idea of being 'competitive' is winning, or at least being able to win lol. My dad has a lot of racing experience, and he's fast. He won numerous regional championships over the years and holds lap records for 2 classes with his old E36 race car at our old home track (which is sadly now gone ). I've been fortunate enough to have basically unlimited coaching from him over the years and now we run at virtually the same pace. Our hope is to be be able to set some new records with his car, hopefully some with me driving!

At this point we're just itching to get out. Car is packed up and ready to go for our June 28th track day - please don't get postponed again..!
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For a track car or spirited weekend car I'd 100% recommend it. The shorter gearing is a noticeable change. I almost went 4.44, which for my local track would be great, but was worried it would be short for other places - hence the 4.10.

Hope that helps.
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That is interesting you were considering going 4.44. Don't hear of many people doing that. I am running the oem diff and waiting to work out any other bugs before I change that. When you say 'too short for other places' what do you mean exactly? What tracks were concerning? Because I have concerns of my own with that short of gear, so I am curious. I did see in car video of the red Strom car with a 4.44 and that looked hella fun!



https://showroom.windingroad.com/listings/product/4894/

I love the door setup. What did you do for the side mirror mount? Any idea on weight saving for side mirrors? I was trying to zoom in, but it was difficult on the black paint. Nice call on the door handle, wish I saved a little more metal to properly fit that recessed like yours.
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      06-19-2020, 12:41 AM   #63
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AMAZING BUILD - NICELY DONE!

That is interesting you were considering going 4.44. Don't hear of many people doing that. I am running the oem diff and waiting to work out any other bugs before I change that. When you say 'too short for other places' what do you mean exactly? What tracks were concerning? Because I have concerns of my own with that short of gear, so I am curious. I did see in car video of the red Strom car with a 4.44 and that looked hella fun!



https://showroom.windingroad.com/listings/product/4894/

I love the door setup. What did you do for the side mirror mount? Any idea on weight saving for side mirrors? I was trying to zoom in, but it was difficult on the black paint. Nice call on the door handle, wish I saved a little more metal to properly fit that recessed like yours.
Thank you

I believe at the time when I purchased the diff from driftflo the 4.44 wasn't available and I'd spoken with people who had been happy with the 4.10 so we decided to go that route. We thought we could always swap in a 4.44 if we wanted it in the future and if we felt it would suit the tracks we visit better, but so far we're happy with the 4.10. Combined with a lightweight flywheel and the flat torque curve, the car pulls hard and revs up quickly from ~3k rpm. Additionally (I just remembered) that the 4.44 would have put us in an awkward rpm for some corners at our home track and felt it would be detrimental in some corners. The 4.10 worked out better on paper overall so we went that route and so far it's been a perfect compromise of shorter but not overly short gearing.

The mirrors are mounted on a custom plate my dad made that fit in the OEM location of the original side mirror. It was surprisingly complicated and unfortunately we didn't take any pictures of it prior to paint and installation.

Each mirror is ~200 grams (the new ones). I can weight the old ones if you're interested as I don't know how much they were off the top of my head.
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      06-20-2020, 10:57 PM   #64
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Thank you

I believe at the time when I purchased the diff from driftflo the 4.44 wasn't available and I'd spoken with people who had been happy with the 4.10 so we decided to go that route. We thought we could always swap in a 4.44 if we wanted it in the future and if we felt it would suit the tracks we visit better, but so far we're happy with the 4.10. Combined with a lightweight flywheel and the flat torque curve, the car pulls hard and revs up quickly from ~3k rpm. Additionally (I just remembered) that the 4.44 would have put us in an awkward rpm for some corners at our home track and felt it would be detrimental in some corners. The 4.10 worked out better on paper overall so we went that route and so far it's been a perfect compromise of shorter but not overly short gearing.

The mirrors are mounted on a custom plate my dad made that fit in the OEM location of the original side mirror. It was surprisingly complicated and unfortunately we didn't take any pictures of it prior to paint and installation.

Each mirror is ~200 grams (the new ones). I can weight the old ones if you're interested as I don't know how much they were off the top of my head.
You know its light when you refer to mass in grams. Seems worth it to me. Really nice build you guys did.
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      06-21-2020, 01:23 PM   #65
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First track day of the year is next weekend! Very excited to get back out on track again.

Here are a few on track shots of the car from last season:







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Car looks amazing
Appreciate 1
tsk94283.50

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