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      05-27-2020, 12:10 PM   #1
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FULL E85 with SC M3 Complete

There always seems to be alot of back and forth on if a supercharged e90/e92/3M can run full e85 on the factory fuel pump. I will list out the mods my car has or had whos tune i used or currently use and be as transparent as possible. I see way to often that people are overly secretive regarding this platform and in my opinion it does nothing but hinder the platforms progress or growth.

First I would like to say I do not run nor do I support running any flex fuel kit on our car. Flex fuel resistor box are designed off of the premise of increasing injector duty cycle to account for the 30-40 percent more consumption require to make the same power or explosive energy as 93octane. These boxes do not account for timing or weather conditions. The biggest gain from e85 is it's detonation properties or resistance to such. With this you are able to run more advanced ignition timing targets with out pre detonation or knock at the same level found on 93/91. When you run a flex fuel box you are not able to take advantage of this until you are running a 93 tune that happens to be so aggressive the car reduces timing on its own at the presence of knock and when running e85 sense no knock there by allowing it to meet its timing target. ( believe this is the reason gintani does not sell the kit any longer.)

While there seems to be speculation on if the problem is injectors or fuel pump I chose to give injectors a try first. I contacted frank smith with tunning tech, to get an e85 tune for my Ess 625 kit, My kit at the time was already running a smaller pulley 3.6 at the time equal to 8 psi depending t sea level. while I never was able to dyno the car I used a BMW logging software to monitor what the car saw for fuel pressure and AFR. I ran the tune for about a month before switch to RK tunes. The reason for the switch was a bootloading error that occurred when loading the TTFS tune that would constantly wake the car up after it was parked which eventually lead to coming out to dead battery or battery discharge warning. after going back and forth I choose to give someone else a try.

Jordon at RK tunes sent me a tune for the injectors I was planning to run 1050CC (another claim that the factory ecu can not control these injectors due to size). I also had purchased a smaller pulley 3.48 to be exact. Jason another SC m3 owner made the jump at the same time to get his tune done. Jason dyno tuned in person while I conducted mine remotely via street tune.

Jason's car on 93 oct produced just short of 600whp. 598WHP 422WTQ to be exact. On Full e85 car made 676whp with 461WTQ with the factory fuel pump. While these are awesome numbers your car will run a bit leaner at speed on the street then it will on the dyno as this was the first hicup that was found for both jason and my self. both of Our factory 100kmile fuel pumps could not keep up with the demand after 3rd gear as the cars compensation table began to request more fuel then was achievable on factory pump. Here is where we stop. Both jason and I were running 3.48 pulleys which make roughly 9 psi at peak. on a Factory 625pulley 3.8 roughly 7 psi the car was able to account for the fuel consumption at speed with no issue but beyond 3.8 the factory fuel pump could not keep up and the pressure drop around 38 PSI after 7k RPM beyond 3RD WOT.

Fix. \
Fuelit developed a Drop in add on fuel pump hanger that fits in our fuel tank. This secondary fuel pump is optioned as a walbo 450/485 or the hellcat 525 fuel pump. The secondary fuel pump is activated via a 4 psi HOBBS switch that completes a ground circuit. Fuel it sent me the wrong hobs switch so I chose to instead use my snow performance boost cooler stage 2 controller to send the signal to turn on the pump instead. This allowed me to test for pump pressure and change my activation psi to where I wanted it. In my case I choose to move mine to 5 psi as I made another change to 3.3 pulley.
https://www.fuel-it.com/fi-650hp-bmw...-lpfp-upgrade/

Now proof in the putting because honestly Dyno numbers mean nothing. at -700 da Jason E92M DCT pulled a best of 7.03 valid the invalid run of 6.75 60-130 for 100-200khm 6.02 (stock clutches stock motor)
3.48pulley factory fuel lines

My E90m on 19s also no weight reduction pulled a 200 da pulled a 6.80 60-130 and a 5.85 100-200 (stock clutches stock motor)
3.3 pulley factory fuel lines.

I currently am testing an smaller pulley and rear mounted ice tank that i will post when I have a chance to test.

This all being done on FACTORY clutches, stock 114k mile motor, factory fuel lines.
I have been running this setup for just short of 1 year. With a lot of racing, long drives, and currently daily the car on Full e85.


Anyone looking to make the jump can PM me and I will assist with getting you the pump and injectors at a discounted price.

Will upload Dyno and Draggy Print outs tonight or you can check my IG @properstyleprince for them.
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      05-27-2020, 12:28 PM   #2
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      05-27-2020, 01:29 PM   #3
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What width are your rear tires? How does it hook at 60mph? Any spin?
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      05-27-2020, 02:07 PM   #4
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What width are your rear tires? How does it hook at 60mph? Any spin?
r888rs
295/30/19 on F14 19x11s

Honestly 60 is not the greatest roll its too high for 2nd and two low from 3rd to get that full punch. But for hooking sakes 50 is power roll in 2nd gear. there is a slight spin off the hit but if you grab 3rd the car spins and moves. 1st gear 30mph is possible but a bit to violent to use 20 in st is better.
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      05-27-2020, 05:40 PM   #5
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Nice job congrats brother.
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      05-27-2020, 08:16 PM   #6
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Nice job congrats brother.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Nice job congrats brother.
Just tired of all the hidden data for those tryna go further with the platform. All the claims of 600whp equals blown motor not possible on factory clutches etc. just want to see people go fast and not give up on our platform when options are available.
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      05-27-2020, 08:26 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Properstyle View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Nice job congrats brother.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Nice job congrats brother.
Just tired of all the hidden data for those tryna go further with the platform. All the claims of 600whp equals blown motor not possible on factory clutches etc. just want to see people go fast and not give up on our platform when options are available.
I keep toying with an idea of my own. Find one of those used non-intercooled ESS kits on the cheap, and then get a small 8-9psi pulley, larger injectors and use meth as cooling and octane, and get someone to custom tune it (maybe using the base ESS650 file). My frustration years ago was keeping the power that it made on the dyno with the standard ESS intercooled kits. Turns out the car really made 450 wheel with my 8 second 60-130's on the hot airstrip and made 580 wheel in perfect dyno conditions and who knows maybe low 500's in the cool evenings with low 7 60-130's. The air to water intercooler was terrible and although the addition of the water/ice tank helped a lot, i gave up my trunk. Sure the ESS intercooled kits may make a lot of power on the dyno and put up a glory run 60-130 in cold winter air, but the inconsistency in hot weather was always my biggest gripe.

Anyway sounds like yours is nicely sorted.
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      05-27-2020, 11:16 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Properstyle View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Nice job congrats brother.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Nice job congrats brother.
Just tired of all the hidden data for those tryna go further with the platform. All the claims of 600whp equals blown motor not possible on factory clutches etc. just want to see people go fast and not give up on our platform when options are available.
I keep toying with an idea of my own. Find one of those used non-intercooled ESS kits on the cheap, and then get a small 8-9psi pulley, larger injectors and use meth as cooling and octane, and get someone to custom tune it (maybe using the base ESS650 file). My frustration years ago was keeping the power that it made on the dyno with the standard ESS intercooled kits. Turns out the car really made 450 wheel with my 8 second 60-130's on the hot airstrip and made 580 wheel in perfect dyno conditions and who knows maybe low 500's in the cool evenings with low 7 60-130's. The air to water intercooler was terrible and although the addition of the water/ice tank helped a lot, i gave up my trunk. Sure the ESS intercooled kits may make a lot of power on the dyno and put up a glory run 60-130 in cold winter air, but the inconsistency in hot weather was always my biggest gripe.

Anyway sounds like yours is nicely sorted.
I can completely understand that struggle, I've through about putting meth back in the car to assist with air intake temps as the car pulled tuning hard in heat. Noticed if I can keep be temp below 100 for air intake temp car is happy but anything over that timing is pulled. When I did a test while on 93 a few years back cool night on the dyno I made 565whp at 8psi but at 90 the next day only made. 480. Turning on the meth with a very small cm3 nozzle spraying progressively the car made 535 so I know meth helps if you can keep the spray low enough that it doesn't cause a a rich condition. I have a spare manifold I might hack it up and remove the intercooler to give straight meth at 9 psi a try.
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      05-28-2020, 06:31 AM   #9
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I donít think you need straight meth for your cooling purposes when also running E85. Iíd go 50:50 or maybe more water. Water cools better than meth. And E85 gives all the octane you need. The trick is getting enough in there without messing up the tune. You might want a tune that factors in the meth but that is risky if it stops flowing.

Hopefully you are using a good proportional flow system like the Aquamist that follows injector duty cycle so it is load based. Also donít set the trigger too low. You might want to add a boost based onset trigger and not start until at least halfway to your peak boost. And in cold weather you may need to reduce flow by changing injectors or dialing back the onset and rate of gain.

Iíve been running Aquamist on my turbo cars for 20 years. I even run water meth in my naturally aspirated E90 M3 through a Vishnu Procede, which is no longer available. That system uses some Aquamist parts. But the Procede is a piggyback tune that factors in the water meth.

Does the OP have a fan or fans on the air to water intercooler heat exchanger? If not fans had he considered water spray on the outside of the exchanger core if he is not running track events where this would be prohibited? Has he upgraded the heat exchanger? Is he using a reservoir to add capacity? Is the pump high enough capacity?
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      05-28-2020, 10:17 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
I donít think you need straight meth for your cooling purposes when also running E85. Iíd go 50:50 or maybe more water. Water cools better than meth. And E85 gives all the octane you need. The trick is getting enough in there without messing up the tune. You might want a tune that factors in the meth but that is risky if it stops flowing.

Hopefully you are using a good proportional flow system like the Aquamist that follows injector duty cycle so it is load based. Also donít set the trigger too low. You might want to add a boost based onset trigger and not start until at least halfway to your peak boost. And in cold weather you may need to reduce flow by changing injectors or dialing back the onset and rate of gain.

Iíve been running Aquamist on my turbo cars for 20 years. I even run water meth in my naturally aspirated E90 M3 through a Vishnu Procede, which is no longer available. That system uses some Aquamist parts. But the Procede is a piggyback tune that factors in the water meth.

Does the OP have a fan or fans on the air to water intercooler heat exchanger? If not fans had he considered water spray on the outside of the exchanger core if he is not running track events where this would be prohibited? Has he upgraded the heat exchanger? Is he using a reservoir to add capacity? Is the pump high enough capacity?
When I was running meth I was using the same system I'm using to control my secondary fuel pump. Its a progress spray that didn't start until 3 psi and didn't max until 8 psi this allows the ecu to have time to make adjustment through out the rpm and not cause a rich condition.

I personally would choose straight meth as it ads a better flashing to ignite the flash. a few of the NA lS7 high ram cars use it this way and the intake its damn near frosty after a wot pulls on the dyno.


yes I run a 3.5 gallon 10x10 ice tank in the trunk of my car now. The only benefit is longer cooling temps but on the con side it does take longer to cool the temps back down. honestly if I was going to go back to running at the track Id run a larger pulley to drop boost or do like I did before were I moved to shifting at 6500 to keep temps down. the car makes so much power before 7k now that don't need to go to redline as it makes 7 psi now at 5500rpm.

Still on the stock ess cooler though I am looking in to a larger one. I was going to buy the one sold by vf but 700 dollars is overly inflated price for a single pass heat exchanger when even the csf rad they sell cost 200 less.
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      05-28-2020, 10:21 AM   #11
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Would there be a chance to run E85 on an N / A engine? I understand that you would have to add the additional pump and perhaps modify something else? for example injectors?

I had also heard that always running E85 is bad for the fuel system as it dries out all the parts a lot...

Good job Properstyle
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      05-28-2020, 10:26 AM   #12
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Would there be a chance to run E85 on an N / A engine? I understand that you would have to add the additional pump and perhaps modify something else? for example injectors?

I had also heard that always running E85 is bad for the fuel system as it dries out all the parts a lot...

Good job Properstyle
letting e85 sit wil cause problems. but my M3 is just my daily so it never sits longer than maybe 2 days if choose to take the z to work. ON na setup you can run full e85 with no changes at all stock injectors and stock fuel pump.
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      05-29-2020, 07:56 AM   #13
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Thanks for the transparency and providing the blueprint!
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      05-29-2020, 08:40 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Properstyle View Post
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Originally Posted by SAMM3Y View Post
What width are your rear tires? How does it hook at 60mph? Any spin?
r888rs
295/30/19 on F14 19x11s

Honestly 60 is not the greatest roll its too high for 2nd and two low from 3rd to get that full punch. But for hooking sakes 50 is power roll in 2nd gear. there is a slight spin off the hit but if you grab 3rd the car spins and moves. 1st gear 30mph is possible but a bit to violent to use 20 in st is better.
What rear tire pressure in the R888's? They are awesome tires and found that they do really well (hook up dig/roll) in the mid 20's. Above 32psi they don't hook so well.
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      05-29-2020, 08:46 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
I don’t think you need straight meth for your cooling purposes when also running E85. I’d go 50:50 or maybe more water. Water cools better than meth. And E85 gives all the octane you need. The trick is getting enough in there without messing up the tune. You might want a tune that factors in the meth but that is risky if it stops flowing.

Hopefully you are using a good proportional flow system like the Aquamist that follows injector duty cycle so it is load based. Also don’t set the trigger too low. You might want to add a boost based onset trigger and not start until at least halfway to your peak boost. And in cold weather you may need to reduce flow by changing injectors or dialing back the onset and rate of gain.

I’ve been running Aquamist on my turbo cars for 20 years. I even run water meth in my naturally aspirated E90 M3 through a Vishnu Procede, which is no longer available. That system uses some Aquamist parts. But the Procede is a piggyback tune that factors in the water meth.

Does the OP have a fan or fans on the air to water intercooler heat exchanger? If not fans had he considered water spray on the outside of the exchanger core if he is not running track events where this would be prohibited? Has he upgraded the heat exchanger? Is he using a reservoir to add capacity? Is the pump high enough capacity?
What nozzle size do you run on your NA M3? Single or dual nozzles? Also what size on a supercharged M3? Different size nozzle(s) if an e85 supercharged M3? Do you use boost juice (49/51)? It's convenient.

On my other car my tank is clear as is 100% meth so i usually pour in a little boost juice to provide color so i can more easily recognize the level in the tank.
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      05-29-2020, 09:16 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Properstyle View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAMM3Y View Post
What width are your rear tires? How does it hook at 60mph? Any spin?
r888rs
295/30/19 on F14 19x11s

Honestly 60 is not the greatest roll its too high for 2nd and two low from 3rd to get that full punch. But for hooking sakes 50 is power roll in 2nd gear. there is a slight spin off the hit but if you grab 3rd the car spins and moves. 1st gear 30mph is possible but a bit to violent to use 20 in st is better.
What rear tire pressure in the R888's? They are awesome tires and found that they do really well (hook up dig/roll) in the mid 20's. Above 32psi they don't hook so well.
Normally run mine at 28-30psi. And every time I always have a full tank so I'm sure that's part of what's helps me with traction
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      05-29-2020, 09:20 AM   #17
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I run what Vishnu supplied with the Procede kit, which I believe is two 1.0mm nozzles that flow in total 750-800 cc at 100% duty cycle. I donít know whether the programming hits that total or is based off fuel injector duty cycle and reaches maybe 75%.

https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636636

I believe he did a 3 nozzle kit for a supercharged car but donít know the details.

https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=589573

I do not think he did any systems for E85 cars. E85 has the octane to handle high IAT, but the IAT sensor does not know that so it is telling the ECU to pull timing when no pull is necessary so I can see how water or water with some meth would help if injected before the IAT sensor.

I buy M1 from VP at the drag strip for $3-4 per gallon. I have a couple of the blue 5 gallon containers that I refill. I mix my own using distilled water usually at 70/30 meth water though this is potentially dangerous because it is flammable. 50/50 is safer and probably fine. I would use boost juice if I ran out and needed to buy some locally or order online. Many years ago I ran winter mix washer fluid, the blue stuff good to -20F because it is about 30% methanol but I found it left crusty stuff in the nozzles over time that clogged them. Probably a little soap.

Last edited by pbonsalb; 05-29-2020 at 09:34 AM..
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      05-31-2020, 09:44 AM   #18
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This is really great stuff! Good job pushing the platform and thanks for sharing.
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      06-10-2020, 01:50 AM   #19
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Normally run mine at 28-30psi. And every time I always have a full tank so I'm sure that's part of what's helps me with traction
Hi, sent you a PM i'm interested in doing that to my ride btw any reason for not upgrading fuel lines ?
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      06-11-2020, 03:04 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Properstyle View Post
When I was running meth I was using the same system I'm using to control my secondary fuel pump. Its a progress spray that didn't start until 3 psi and didn't max until 8 psi this allows the ecu to have time to make adjustment through out the rpm and not cause a rich condition.

I personally would choose straight meth as it ads a better flashing to ignite the flash. a few of the NA lS7 high ram cars use it this way and the intake its damn near frosty after a wot pulls on the dyno.


yes I run a 3.5 gallon 10x10 ice tank in the trunk of my car now. The only benefit is longer cooling temps but on the con side it does take longer to cool the temps back down. honestly if I was going to go back to running at the track Id run a larger pulley to drop boost or do like I did before were I moved to shifting at 6500 to keep temps down. the car makes so much power before 7k now that don't need to go to redline as it makes 7 psi now at 5500rpm.

Still on the stock ess cooler though I am looking in to a larger one. I was going to buy the one sold by vf but 700 dollars is overly inflated price for a single pass heat exchanger when even the csf rad they sell cost 200 less.
Isn't there an air to air intercooler? This might help in keeping the IATs low longer.
I am using the G-Power SC kit with around 9-10PSI on stock internals, fuel system and clutch. Best 100-200 was 5.59 sec. But i can only run those numbers during cold weather (under 50). Everything above 50 will increase IATs to over 100 and the car pulls timing.
Fortunately we have premium gas with around 95 AON here (Aral ultimate 102). This helps against knock.
So this platform is capable of more than just 600whp
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