The unacceptable danger of modern track-day coaching - Road & Track

[SenorFunkyPants]

Clearly I'm old fashioned, I learnt my craft on old bangers, how to H&T, double declutch and shift without using the clutch etc. By the time I'd worked my way up my dream car (old school 930 turbo) I was in my thirties and my first time on a track was a Porsche organised track day in that car. It was a bit of training, timed autocross and slalom followed by an afternoon free use of the track (Donnington) once you had been accompanied by an instructor (Touring car driver) who made sure you were safe and scored your ability.
It was a great day (made better by me winning the event) the 930 seem to come alive on the track and it all seemed perfectly natural - I spent nearly about 45mins chasing down another 930 turbo until I finally caught up to him and he pointed me by, a pass which was short lived as by then I was out of fuel and had to pit.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Clearly I'm old fashioned, I learnt my craft on old bangers, how to H&T, double declutch and shift without using the clutch etc. By the time I'd worked my way up my dream car (old school 930 turbo) I was in my thirties and my first time on a track was a Porsche organised track day in that car. It was a bit of training, timed autocross and slalom followed by an afternoon free use of the track (Donnington) once you had been accompanied by an instructor (Touring car driver) who made sure you were safe and scored your ability.
It was a great day (made better by me winning the event) the 930 seem to come alive on the track and it all seemed perfectly natural - I spent nearly about 45mins chasing down another 930 turbo until I finally caught up to him and he pointed me by, a pass which was short lived as by then I was out of fuel and had to pit.

Perhaps in the old days people were just more respectful of basic physics too? My first track event was at the Walter Mitty Challenge at Road Atlanta in 1981. The BMWCCA, Jaguar club, and Ferrari club sponsored open track sessions during the Mitty back then, and I went to the event in 1981-1983. No instruction (and a few drivers really needed it). I was fortunate in that I had been autocrossing for 6 years already at that point, knew RA fairly well (from spectator view though), and understood how to drive the basic line and such.

The kicker to that event? We did timed runs in the afternoon each day (it was a 3-day event) and times were posted at the base of the old (now) timing tower at RA. This was the old layout of RA too with the infamous "elevator shaft" plunge at the end of the back straight and when the bridge turn was a serious turn with the apex right under the bridge. Brian Redman ran the driver's meetings each morning.

I imagine if something like this was done today, chaos would ensue.

[armyav8tor]

My opinion on HPDE is that it has too many rules and restrictions. As a result, I think students take for granted and let their guards down. The Nurburgring does it right, every year the motorcycle guys does a memorial ride for those who died on the track, and I think they average about one a year. This reminds people of the risks involved and teaches them to be responsible drivers/ riders. Instead of holding people's hand like they do here. Tourist days are rules of the road, no helmet, no point by, no windows rolled down, no long sleeve shirt and pants, no removing your carpet even though it is velcro'd to the floor, etc... You go on there, it is you responsible for yourself and those around you. Big boy rules... I used to go around in flip flops, tshirt and shorts. My buddy drove around with full luggage, a pot of curry, and 2 screaming kids. Big boy rules. The type of driving we do is dangerous but I think people forgets with an instructor sitting next to them. Also, some of these guys do HPDEs for what I consider to be the wrong reasons. I can spot those people easy because they are the ones riding people's ass on the out lap. It is not about learning for them and they are the ones killing girlfriends and instructors. They are the minority and the Ring would have weeded them out quickly, by either killing them or their wallet.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by armyav8tor

My opinion on HPDE is that it has too many rules and restrictions. As a result, I think students take for granted and let their guards down.

There are open track days in the US as well, probably one of the best is David Murry (DMTD) at Sebring and VIR, at least on the east coast. But the organization is quite different.

For organizations like the PCA, BMW CCA, NASA, SCCA, etc., we cannot rent a track without track insurance, and to get insurance we have to have measures in place to reduce risk of damage. In addition, our customers, the students, expect us to provide instructions, some measure of orderliness, safety, etc., such as EMS personnel at a minimum on track available at all time or corner workers that have training and experience in flagging races and the list goes on. There is a long list of expectations from our customers, and when you organize a track event that will cater to the largest possible group (remember it is about the economics of event organization), then the costs sky rocket. To keep everything at a reasonable price so you have attendance, as well as quality of service, you get to a point you have to have basic rules of conduct. Otherwise it would be similar to VFR all the time without regard to any ATC or tower communications, fly all you want anywhere anytime.

As a comparison, DMTD does not provide instructions or coaching, but they cater to advance drivers and provide all the track time you want without any sessions, go out any time you want as much as you want, no point-bys. It is really great for some drivers; they charge about $700 for two week day tracking. We charge $250-325 for three weekend days. If we had DMTD format, our program would go bankrupt.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Smooth inputs are overrated, by the way. The only thing that matters is the loads the tires sees. If that means you have to swing the wheel back and forth wildly, then so be it.

Agreed!

Besides, unless you are a robot, there's almost no way to drive faster & faster and have perfect timing each and every time with steering, gas and braking. So, arguably, humans who drive smooth on the tracks aren't driving hard enough.

Originally Posted by Richbot

Smooth inputs are overrated, by the way. The only thing that matters is the loads the tires sees. If that means you have to swing the wheel back and forth wildly, then so be it.

Absolutely. That is the key, isn't it.

Originally Posted by Richbot

The only thing that matters is the loads the tires sees. If that means you have to swing the wheel back and forth wildly, then so be it.

On certain fast turns at certain tracks, I saw the steering wheel to do that. I keep the saw'ing to a level so as to keep the lateral weight transfers from swinging too wildly. When I resort to it, I'd saw 2 or 3 times to go thru a corner and I'm able to get out of there carrying much more speed than otherwise; or, in other cases, make it thru the corner where, otherwise, I'd understeer or push thru it.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by OC3

Agreed!

Besides, unless you are a robot, there's almost no way to drive faster & faster and have perfect timing each and every time with steering, gas and braking. So, arguably, humans who drive smooth on the tracks aren't driving hard enough.

There is a difference between smooth and being quick. Sometimes you need to be smooth and quick. But I also agree that, at times, purposely upsetting the car gets it in a better position for the next turn. Car control really needs to include this. But quick, jerky inputs should be consciously made vs a habit for every turn.

The one thing that I see a lot of advanced students do is throw out the boat anchor while braking. As an advanced student, IMO, you really should be balancing the car through the turns...not brake, turn in, apex, track out. my theory is the point to point driving is what gets advanced students in trouble. That also is reliant upon a lot of other skills learned as a novice, vision, looking through the turn and thinking ahead and awareness of what's around you.

[Richbot]

Not throwing out the anchor on corner entry is also somewhere getting time in a lowhp car is a very helpful bit of experience a lot of people are missing out on going straight for the 400+hp you know what.

Nothing teaches you to bring your speed with you to the apex faster than trying to squeeze a lap time out of a car that doesn't let you buy your exit speed with the throttle pedal

It's a situation that can be simulated by leaving the car in 5th or 6th

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Not throwing out the anchor on corner entry is also somewhere getting time in a lowhp car is a very helpful bit of experience a lot of people are missing out on going straight for the 400+hp you know what.

Nothing teaches you to bring your speed with you to the apex faster than trying to squeeze a lap time out of a car that doesn't let you buy your exit speed with the throttle pedal

It's a situation that can be simulated by leaving the car in 5th or 6th

That's where I struggle...I almost bought a Miata before I bought my E46 M3. I...just...couldn't...do...it. More power to those who do but I just can't get over the hair dresser stigma.

After driving COTA...I think it is one of the most boring tracks to drive. There are 3 pretty long straights where I just feel like I'm wasting fuel. I actually prefer a track in Cresson, TX...Motorsport Ranch in its 3.1 mile config. THAT'S FUN!

COTA...really cool to be on because F1 but kind of boring...

MSR 3.1...lots more turning and way more fun...

[OC3]

How apt. Was supposed to be out last month in a rented Miata, if hadn't been for food poisoning the night before.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

There is a difference between smooth and being quick. Sometimes you need to be smooth and quick. But I also agree that, at times, purposely upsetting the car gets it in a better position for the next turn. Car control really needs to include this. But quick, jerky inputs should be consciously made vs a habit for every turn.

The one thing that I see a lot of advanced students do is throw out the boat anchor while braking. As an advanced student, IMO, you really should be balancing the car through the turns...not brake, turn in, apex, track out. my theory is the point to point driving is what gets advanced students in trouble. That also is reliant upon a lot of other skills learned as a novice, vision, looking through the turn and thinking ahead and awareness of what's around you.

Talking to me, or in general?

Anyhow, which advanced student doesn't balance the car and just go brake, turn in, apex and track out? lulz

[OC3]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

That's where I struggle...I almost bought a Miata before I bought my E46 M3. I...just...couldn't...do...it. More power to those who do but I just can't get over the hair dresser stigma.

After driving COTA...I think it is one of the most boring tracks to drive. There are 3 pretty long straights where I just feel like I'm wasting fuel. I actually prefer a track in Cresson, TX...Motorsport Ranch in its 3.1 mile config. THAT'S FUN!

COTA...really cool to be on because F1 but kind of boring...

MSR 3.1...lots more turning and way more fun...

Agreed. Which is why I hadn't gone to ACS nor Big Willow in 19 months and spent that time all at Buttonwillow and Chuckwalla.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by OC3

Talking to me, or in general?

you

[OC3]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

you

Uhmm, and you're telling me I "should be balancing the car through the turns...not brake, turn in, apex, track out" why, because you KNOW I don't? How the f do you know this?

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by Shaung

I have heard that there is an issue with all wheel drive and throttle lift off in high speed turns

Worse with a Porsche.

[USCTrojanMan29]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Worse with a Porsche.

I've had several PCA instructors tell me...."when in doubt stay on throttle and DON'T LIFT"

[SenorFunkyPants]

930 turbos required even more caution as the transition from turbo lag to full boost was very abrupt, wet turns could be a disaster if you were on the throttle too much too early and it came on boost before you were pointing in a straight line.

[OC3]

^I read somewhere that's why people who raced them would enter corners already loaded up on boost.

[mastek]

Really good thread OC3!!

I'm glad this conversation is being had.
I have never been comfortable with this setup and I don't ride passenger in any car (when possible) let alone a race track with a newbzie.

Some great points being made here .... at least on the 1st page

[1MOREMOD]

I'm gonna start having what if conversations with instructors about offs and such when I go. Not talked about much. For the most part i have figured it out but not really ideal to practice dropping wheels so you can manage it.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by OC3

^I read somewhere that's why people who raced them would enter corners already loaded up on boost.

Yeah it was pretty much get everything done in a straight line and turn in always with some power applied - timed right it would come on full boost just as you were unwinding the steering wheel and off you shot.
The 930 even as a slightly slower car than the M3 felt like you were hanging for dear life driving it. When pushed hard you arrived at your destination buzzing from the adrenaline, wet under the arms and always slightly surprised that you made it in one piece.

[s85e90]

Originally Posted by OC3

^I read somewhere that's why people who raced them would enter corners already loaded up on boost.

Many 930 owners wives also tried to sue Porsche due to the raw power and lag that car had. This car made the term = widow maker.

[CSBM5]

Take it from the master when it comes to driving the late 70s 930 turbo.