The unacceptable danger of modern track-day coaching - Road & Track

[OC3]

Not sure if this is a re-post...

http://www.roadandtrack.com/voices/o...?src=soc_fcbks

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[///M Ryder]

Good article.........Phil

[Richbot]

Totally agree. Lead follow and data/video boxes are the way forward. Coupled with two strikes and you're out. Side seat riding for anything but off-speed parade lap instruction is obsolete and finally affordable to phase out. I made the mistake of agreeing to help a newb recently, after swearing off it for years, from the side seat. He made all the right noises, was very receptive to my input, and was going at 1/2 speed and still managed to nearly throw it off the track, at speeds that were barely higher than an average on ramp of the same radius. This guy wasn't red misted he just had zero skill or mental conditioning for performance driving and the only way he could get it was with some poor soul in the passenger seat. I was reminded why I said never again and why I will hopefully stick to it this time.

Skippy school teaches people to drive single seaters. It's just not that hard to do when you consider the risk.

[GTB/ZR-1]

Risk/reward, I guess...

Saving ~$400 for the weekend is too tempting for me, at least. It can be a tremendous risk though, unfortunately...

[SenorFunkyPants]

Do you not think part of the problem is that with so much more disposable income and the lower cost threshold of very powerful cars - that ever younger people are getting behind the wheel of cars that are far too powerful for their limited experience and abilities.
When you look at some of the threads like - my MT grinds when I change gear or should I switch off DSC etc etc its scary.
If you own a high powered car should you not already have a pretty decent understanding of the dynamics of driving it at speed, ok so someone might need to give you a few track pointers but jeez if you can't drive a track how dangerous are you on the street?

[Richbot]

I think that's a small part of the problem. But not really that big of a problem. If you set a speed limit or force people to leave the car in 5th gear or whatever you negate most of the fast car hazard. People who are there to go fast as opposed to learn to drive will be found quickly and dealt with, those who can't take the input can go do straight line races or whatever. None of that needs a potential victim of overconfidence and lack of talent in the passenger seat, and that problem won't be (and isn't) solved by having instructors ride helplessly along with nothing but words and or a (very stupid, bad idea) grab at the handbrake or steering wheel to work with.

[Shaung]

I've been to full race schools and maybe 100 or so track days. I can tell you none of the track days mentioned a peep on what to do when things go wrong. Which I've always felt was more important than everything else.

[bigjae1976]

The quality of HPDE organizations vary widely. I've seen some (advertised here) that just let drivers on track with little or no supervision. Nothing is done until something happens. Other DE orgs keep records and establishes a history on drivers AND instructors. Generally you will see these events fill up quickly and be quite crowded. This will push people away into the ones above that measure the quality of an HPDE org by the amount of open track they get to set faster lap times.

Be careful who you DE with...that's what I've been saying for years.

I think the biggest shortcoming of HPDEs are zero prerequisites to get on track. There should be some sort of car control clinic requirement before graduating to a track day novice.

There are also a lot of poor instructors out there. I do enjoy the free or reduced rate track time but my PRIORITY is the student. That means...coming off track early or getting on track late to spend time with your student. One example was an event at COTA...about a half dozen drivers or more every session were waiting for their instructors because they stayed out on track until the checkered flag.
I will admit I've missed a student once (a forum member here) because I had the wrong day's schedule (felt like an idiot) and then I held up Surlynkid talking his ear off and he missed a session (I made up for it later and got an extra session). So honest mistakes, not me out on the track caring only for myself.

Then the other part is the actual instructing. I hear from students...my instructor last time showed me the fast line. Well...that's great but they have no understanding what makes it fast or why. And then I explain what to do IF something happens...oh, that's the first time I heard that.

While I agree, a smart DE org will go to no one in the right seat or at least seriously consider it. I, for one, will be sad if that happens. I really have enjoyed the people I have met instructing and I have always felt that their main interest was to bring the car home in one piece. That's partly because I talked about it before I got into the car and have continued to talk about it. The other reason why I would be sad to see machine instructors is, IMO, the human interaction between human instructor and student is what makes the sport of HPDE so awesome. With a machine instructing drivers...I'd probably get really bored really quickly. I don't see me being a very frequent track day participant.

I might be old fashioned here...but I think the remote instructing is geared more towards people that are serious about lap times and driver development. HPDE is not intended for those people and those people will probably be unhappy with most HPDEs.

[bigjae1976]

Let me add as HPDE grows...the demand for instructors grows. There's pressure to make a buck and some DE orgs will sacrifice quality for quantity.

[Richbot]

You can give someone extremely good instruction and the student can take it all to heart, and an instructor is still a powerless piece of meat in the passenger seat if the student makes a mistake, the car breaks, or another car makes a mistake. Quality of instruction has nothing to do with the risk equation for instructors IMO. Students yes definitely but instructors can do their jobs from the sidelines (and do them better) with a small investment in infrastructure, even just requiring people to bring or providing a GoPro mounted to show driver input can get novices the feedback they need without putting (limited, increasingly difficult to convince to get in the side seat) instructors at risk.

Once the basics are down data logging is a far better tool than even the most experienced somebody sitting in the passenger seat and offering seat of the pants suggestions.

[///M Ryder]

Rich, do you think the student is more receptive to the GoPro/Data logger instruction or the chatter box in the seat next to him? I totally agree the instructor duty is very risky. A lot depends on the student's mindset and their attitude towards performance driving. I've often wondered which novice on track today wants to be the next F1 champ. Attitude has got to be the number factor for student and instructor. I've meet some real tools that sit in the instructor seat and their "I'm a great driver" attitude puts them and the student at risk. So in this case, it's not always about the novice in the left seat.......Phil

[Richbot]

In my experience students (the ones who need instruction as opposed to the experienced track rat types who really need higher level data analysis more than somebody "showing them the line" whatever the hell that means) are using up all their mental bandwidth just driving the car and watching the flag stands and looking out for point by situations. I have rarely had the light bulb go on in the car. It's almost always after discussions out of the car, walking through what happened that the light bulb comes on. The most receptive and honestly modest student is still using almost all their brainpower just driving the car. Most don't have time in between all the high order decisions that need to be made to really analyze and think about what's happened until the session is over. And let's be real here, driving a car is just about 100% a mental game. It is a thinking mans sport, the thinking just happen to happen quickly.

As for control of out of control drivers that's what flags, kicking people out, and bans are for. I have seen at least as many crashes with instructors aboard as without.

Agree toolbag instructors are out there. Better to keep them out of the car too IMO.

[jphughan]

I've been fortunate to have instructors who were all good to outstanding (most of them trending toward the latter), and although I'm solo most of the time now, I would really miss the option to have an instructor in the car, and I think that experience helped my learning as a novice immensely. While I agree with the post above that I have more time and mental bandwidth to think while my instructor and I are debriefing in the paddock, I really value the instant feedback on the track -- again, that was even more true when I was a novice. Even if you can't deeply analyze your mistake while you're out driving, if your instructor makes a comment at that moment, that moment is sort of sort "bookmarked" in your head for further discussion later, and you'll have a clearer memory of what you were doing and feeling at that moment. If you just recorded a bunch of video that was reviewed later, you wouldn't remember whatever moments your instructor called out nearly as clearly, which would make it harder to apply the feedback.

And I definitely don't think the technology is there for reliably livestreaming a session to an instructor (at least without infrastructure built into the track facility itself, but we know what that would do to costs), and even if livestreaming were feasible, I think that even video and telemetry wouldn't give the instructor as much data as actual seat time does, which would hamper his/her the ability to instruct.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Richbot

In my experience students (the ones who need instruction as opposed to the experienced track rat types who really need higher level data analysis more than somebody "showing them the line" whatever the hell that means) are using up all their mental bandwidth just driving the car and watching the flag stands and looking out for point by situations. I have rarely had the light bulb go on in the car. It's almost always after discussions out of the car, walking through what happened that the light bulb comes on. The most receptive and honestly modest student is still using almost all their brainpower just driving the car. Most don't have time in between all the high order decisions that need to be made to really analyze and think about what's happened until the session is over. And let's be real here, driving a car is just about 100% a mental game. It is a thinking mans sport, the thinking just happen to happen quickly.

As for control of out of control drivers that's what flags, kicking people out, and bans are for. I have seen at least as many crashes with instructors aboard as without.

Agree toolbag instructors are out there. Better to keep them out of the car too IMO.

I can't say that I disagree with anything you said. I think deaths and even crashes are well covered these days. Evidence...the guy driving a GT2 grabs the A pillar in the esses at COTA gets plastered all over the internet. So I'm curious to see if there are actually more crashes and fatalities or if its on par with historical numbers?

I would also argue that despite the potential risks the actual rate of contact or crashes is VERY low. I don't have numbers but I would guess that you are more at risk on the public highway than on the track statistically speaking based on actual crashes and deaths. But what's an acceptable risk? I think that will vary widely between individuals which is why I think a right seat riding instructor should be hard to find.

I think the reality (unfortunately) is it will take a rash of deaths and skyrocketing liability insurance premiums to change the sport in his manner. And the sport really should be thinking about how to innovate and evolve...I don't think anyone is.

[1MOREMOD]

Number of track drivers is also growing exponentially so more opportunity for disaster.

[M3 Esq]

I have nothing but respect for instructors who sit right seat. They're counting on the driver to respond to instruction and keep the car on the track. I think the risk grows exponentially as the cars become more high powered. What happens when the novice student shows up to the track with his 500hp tuned M4 with its twitchy throttle and likely 500 ft lbs of tq? You hope he checks his ego at the door. You also hope he's easy on the throttle until you get to the apex. It's not like the instructor has a right side brake pedal.

When I was at the Glen last year the guys at the gate said it was the worst year for crashes. When I asked why they thought that was, they said too many inexperienced drivers with too high HP cars. Like Richbot said, not everyone has aptitude for high performance driving.

[Triple M]

So sad to hear things like this. It wasn't long ago some of posted similar sad stories happening elsewhere. I'm glad each time it's posted, a different aspect of the problem is addressed. I've had opportunity over the last 10 years to do all types of schools (PCA, BMWCCA, and skip barber earlier this year), I continue to chose to stay a student as I continue to gain a lot at each school, different tracks, different instructors, different cars are all factors that make me realize "I can't just stick to the last thing I learned in the last school" Learning to adapt quickly is key. Its hard for some to understand that some driver trulymaremborn gifted and some can never get it no matter how great of a listener/student
they are. I was glad Ross Bentley commented on the issue. How do you become a mechanic by just hanging out in a shop every now and then, how do become a doctor without anatomy. I've always wonder how many driver at most event ever read a chapter in Ross Bentley, have adequate seat time, or are natural talented (even young talents in Motorsport will beat the hell out some of their more "experienced" counterparts). I definitely valued those very few skip barber days. Renee villneavue And Andrew Schoen are not just pro racer, but they were able to tell me every damn thing I did wrong or right just by watching the car, listening to shifts, revs all without having sit next to me coming down turn 9 at Laguna. I couldn't hide anything from those guys, totally insane. They pulled u aside after EVERY lap unless your lap was near perfect. Definitely a different experience in schooling.
I do think lap times and safety record is a key factor. It's amazing how highly proficient and skilled drivers can get away with losing a wheel on track yet a novice with a horrible equipment (car) can get someone who is trying to help him killed.
I believe driving different tracks should be requirement. It's amazing how I was able to lay down reasonably fast lap times at spring mountains old 3.4mile config, but yet almost shit my pant first time at fontana on the oval realizing I couldn't see the ZR1 that pulled up on the higher bank next to the wall before T2 even though he wasnt in my mirror before I got on the oval, all I could do was keep my line. New track, new experience, new learning opportunity.
I'm glad bigjae posted recently, the significance of teaching your car properly. Nothing will get u and your instructor killed faster than say for instance, steering wheel with excessive play and a tire with wires showing, to list a few. I've watched people get on track a wheel bolt missing saying "it's not a big deal". All in all, quality and standard is the main issue. I just hope this doesn't keep happening to instructors and drivers. It's totally not worth it. Kills the fun factor. Overall, I agree with Bigjae, statistically it's still a safe sport. 30 years ago, most of us probably wouldn't have heard about this tragedy as it probably wouldn't have made national news, but it's a wake up call.

[StealYourFace]

This is a great discussion.

I have done less than 8 2 day events, and I was moved into advanced intermediate quickly. To me, the biggest thing for a student is listening and really digesting the instruction, and demonstrating consistency with the various things learned. I have been lucky to have solid instructors, and have requested the same instructor a couple times because of his ability to communicate, help me understand and most importantly check for understanding. I student can say "yeah I got it, uh huh" but if he/she can't put the ideas in his own words and demonstrate it on the track there is a problem.

I have also talked to other instructors that I would definitely not want, that are all ego, bad mouth the club, other instructors ect. I have no idea why they are tolerated or why they want to instruct (other than the discount to be there).

I have also seen students that do not demonstrate the basics and basic courtesy. I was at a PCA event earlier this year- I never saw so many GT3s and GT3 RS 911s in my life! It seemed like half of them were in novice. One guy in particular who happened to be older was a real dick, and all over the place on the track in early sessions. I got a couple (reluctant) points from him the first day. On the second day my I was next to him in the grid and said something friendly like "having fun?" and he grunted and gave me a dirty look. I avoided going on anywhere near him.

At a recent cca event, I saw a novice with a c5 Z06 add some oil to the engine, then put the oil bottle in the truck (which isn't separated from the cabin). I advised him to empty the trunk out, he said he never heard of that, and this was day two! First timer, but his instructor clearly didn't check out his trunk and explain the why behind having everything removed. I feel like a basic checklist needs to be used every time when an instructor works with a student for the first time on day one and really explains things and checks for proper understanding.

Several years down the road I see myself attempting the instructors school, because I have a teaching mindset and I get a kick out of developing people, but I've got a long way to get there.

[Triple M]

Originally Posted by StealYourFace

This is a great discussion.

I have done less than 8 2 day events, and I was moved into advanced intermediate quickly. To me, the biggest thing for a student is listening and really digesting the instruction, and demonstrating consistency with the various things learned. I have been lucky to have solid instructors, and have requested the same instructor a couple times because of his ability to communicate, help me understand and most importantly check for understanding. I student can say "yeah I got it, uh huh" but if he/she can't put the ideas in his own words and demonstrate it on the track there is a problem.

I have also talked to other instructors that I would definitely not want, that are all ego, bad mouth the club, other instructors ect. I have no idea why they are tolerated or why they want to instruct (other than the discount to be there).

I have also seen students that do not demonstrate the basics and basic courtesy. I was at a PCA event earlier this year- I never saw so many GT3s and GT3 RS 911s in my life! It seemed like half of them were in novice. One guy in particular who happened to be older was a real dick, and all over the place on the track in early sessions. I got a couple (reluctant) points from him the first day. On the second day my I was next to him in the grid and said something friendly like "having fun?" and he grunted and gave me a dirty look. I avoided going on anywhere near him.

At a recent cca event, I saw a novice with a c5 Z06 add some oil to the engine, then put the oil bottle in the truck (which isn't separated from the cabin). I advised him to empty the trunk out, he said he never heard of that, and this was day two! First timer, but his instructor clearly didn't check out his trunk and explain the why behind having everything removed. I feel like a basic checklist needs to be used every time when an instructor works with a student for the first time on day one and really explains things and checks for proper understanding.

Several years down the road I see myself attempting the instructors school, because I have a teaching mindset and I get a kick out of developing people, but I've got a long way to get there.

+1

Yup. MANY variable. Last death was blamed on student. This one on instructor. Bottom line, under the best of circumstance "accidents" still happen, but a lot can be done to lessen them. A person's personality/attitude can determine and at times predict what they are going to do on track. Heck, we see it on the road everyday, there's a track version of the SAME things, even at professional level just watching pros run each other off and take risks. At least they are doing it for a living.

[bigjae1976]

Right, back on the tech inspections. I think almost all organizations are too relaxed on this. I am by no means an old timer but I remember some DE orgs requiring a stamp from the certain places that do techs. It was a pain but it got done. So as I've moved through the ranks, I've been trusted to do my own techs with no training. I would consider myself handy enough to know the difference between a bad ball joint, bad wheel bearing, or to spot even a small leak. I question what some people are doing when they run out of brakes on the first day.

This is something I have to improve upon as an instructor...look at my students car before going out.

Originally Posted by StealYourFace

I have also seen students that do not demonstrate the basics and basic courtesy.

Students? I've seen instructors demonstrate zero courtesy. What drives me nuts is the drag racing which really makes me want to strap a turbo to my car. Then you get by them and they want to ride my bumper down the straight.

Here's an example. Instructor run group, pass anywhere with a point. So I catch him at about :15, we go through 3 good passing zones but decides to give me a pass right before a blind turn to be a smart a$$ to see if I would go off. Not my first time over that turn so it was a non-issue. But to think this guy is instructing students? I think he even had a student in his car. Then I will brag and use the last part of that video as a good example of just letting someone by thinking about my safety and the guy's passing. I saw the Porsche, I could have held him off for another corner or two but why? That was a good passing zone so I pulled up and let him by. We were both happy and safe.

I still mirror tap as an instructor. That is an expectation of mine from students.

Then I know of another instructor that has bragged about giving people points in a challenging place to see if they go off. I'll take them with a smile...then they'll be staring at the side of my car as I'm catching a 45 degree slip angle through the turn

Originally Posted by StealYourFace

At a recent cca event, I saw a novice with a c5 Z06 add some oil to the engine, then put the oil bottle in the truck (which isn't separated from the cabin). I advised him to empty the trunk out, he said he never heard of that, and this was day two! First timer, but his instructor clearly didn't check out his trunk and explain the why behind having everything removed. I feel like a basic checklist needs to be used every time when an instructor works with a student for the first time on day one and really explains things and checks for proper understanding.

Lol...I remember I moved in the paddock right before I went out on track. In the first turn I hear a loud banging noise. I was like WTF IS THAT!. It was my harbor freight jack rolling around in my trunk.

[Richbot]

No doubt we hear about more than we used to thanks to the inter tubes. I think the number and rate of deaths are probably lots lower than they used to be even with lots faster cars and lots more participants because car safety systems combined with tracks where crashing is planned for is so much better today than when the e36 m3 was one of the hottest cars available 15 years ago.

I also don't disagree that there is value in having an instructor in the car. But if an equivalent, but different benefit can be gleaned from data and video and close off-track real time observation from the instructor, and that method eliminates the risk to instructors entirely, it seems like a no-brainer. We are all carrying video capable internet wifi/p2p connected supercomputers around in our pockets

today we have to tools to drive the numbers to zero and they are cheap and effective and many schools already use them including every single seater school. Time to make that shift IMO. Used to be way more fun to spectate at race events because you could stand 3 feet away from the apex on the other side of a hay bale

[StealYourFace]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Right, back on the tech inspections. I think almost all organizations are too relaxed on this. I am by no means an old timer but I remember some DE orgs requiring a stamp from the certain places that do techs. It was a pain but it got done. So as I've moved through the ranks, I've been trusted to do my own techs with no training. I would consider myself handy enough to know the difference between a bad ball joint, bad wheel bearing, or to spot even a small leak. I question what some people are doing when they run out of brakes on the first day.

This is something I have to improve upon as an instructor...look at my students car before going out.



Students? I've seen instructors demonstrate zero courtesy. What drives me nuts is the drag racing which really makes me want to strap a turbo to my car. Then you get by them and they want to ride my bumper down the straight.

Here's an example. Instructor run group, pass anywhere with a point. So I catch him at about :15, we go through 3 good passing zones but decides to give me a pass right before a blind turn to be a smart a$$ to see if I would go off. Not my first time over that turn so it was a non-issue. But to think this guy is instructing students? I think he even had a student in his car. Then I will brag and use the last part of that video as a good example of just letting someone by thinking about my safety and the guy's passing. I saw the Porsche, I could have held him off for another corner or two but why? That was a good passing zone so I pulled up and let him by. We were both happy and safe.

I still mirror tap as an instructor. That is an expectation of mine from students.

Then I know of another instructor that has bragged about giving people points in a challenging place to see if they go off. I'll take them with a smile...then they'll be staring at the side of my car as I'm catching a 45 degree slip angle through the turn



Lol...I remember I moved in the paddock right before I went out on track. In the first turn I hear a loud banging noise. I was like WTF IS THAT!. It was my harbor freight jack rolling around in my trunk.

Agreed 100% about self techs. There are certain consumables people push way too much, like a set of Koesei 6 spoke rims with 50 track days on them, work out lugs ect...

I don't get the needless bad attitude and ego. Anyone that would want to see somebody go off course is a fucking asshole and doesn't deserve the right to be there. Of course it should be challenging and fun, but forcing unsafe situations is beyond moronic. Fortunately the two clubs I run with (Niagara pca and gvc bmw cca) have 95% great people, course workers and administration.