Tire Talk Megathread

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by derbo

Appreciate the extra words! It confirms my understanding of a heat cycle. I think we were on the same page, where a full heat cycle involves both starting from ambient, reaching operating temp of the tire, then cooling back down to ambient. I didn't see the pdf attached. I'll check back this thread when I'm not on my phone if I missed it due to the mobile app. Thanks guys!

We are on the same page. The Bimmerpost mobile App doesn't show .pdf attachments, but it can also be viewed at the link below:
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https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Dka...NToKcVkdc/view
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An article which gives an introduction to the file = "The Tyre - Grip" is given here:
https://www.yourdatadriven.com/tyre-...in-tire-guide/
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[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by e36clubracer

You spend $20k on your brake kit but then you're counting pennies on buying tires.... You can't make this shit up!

i feel attacked. 20K engine but $1000 brake set up lmaooo

although i have to run 19s temporarily as a company thing.

we have 3p 18in version but i can use it as we no longer produce it. but out side of that.

ill be running 275/35/19 305/30/19 RT660s or V730s depending.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

i feel attacked. 20K engine but $1000 brake set up lmaooo

although i have to run 19s temporarily as a company thing.

we have 3p 18in version but i can use it as we no longer produce it. but out side of that.

ill be running 275/35/19 305/30/19 RT660s or V730s depending.

What 19" size will you be running up front.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by rhyary

What 19" size will you be running up front.

uhhh really depends. 19x9.5+22 or if i reallllllly wanted to which i can 19x11 ET43 (same as rear, will be using spacers)

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

19x11 ET43 (same as rear, will be using spacers)

Yeah.. I'd say at least 10-12mm to make a 305 work on the rear with an ET43 offset on an 11 inch wide rear wheel.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by DrFerry

Yeah.. I'd say at least 10-12mm to make a 305 work on the rear with an ET43 offset.

yeah effectively around 28-33 et

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

yeah effectively around 28-33 et

I am using 10.5" 22 offset in the rear for 305/30/19, 295/30/19 and 275/35/19.


I meant to ask what 19" tire size you are using in the front. Not what wheel size.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by rhyary

I am using 10.5" 22 offset in the rear for 305/30/19, 295/30/19 and 275/35/19.


I meant to ask what 19" tire size you are using in the front. Not what wheel size.

oh sorry!

275/35/19 or 265/35/19

[derbo]

Originally Posted by DrFerry

Johnathan does some good stuff but I'm always a little suspicious when he tests at a tire manufacturer's facility because then their products seem to win his tests. Even the GY Supercar 3 testing that he did at Nelson Ledges - and was sponsored by GY - the GY SC3 and GYSC3R were the winners (came out on top).. Just my two cents caveat. His better and more interesting recent test to me was "Slicks vs. Track Tire vs. UHP Street Tire"..
.

.

100% agree on possibly skewed results.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by tsk94

Interesting - thanks for sharing.

I've found the RR to be faster, by only by ~0.5 seconds in my experience. But, different car and track compared to your test so I'm sure it can vary.

I suppose the one thing I should note is I always put 1 initial heat cycle on the tire, and let it sit for at least 24 hrs before running it again. Do you do the same, or just run them from new? Perhaps that plays a part in the discrepancy as well.

I heat cycled my first set, didn't on my second set, just ran them. Not much of a difference.

I do drive them a little differently. It's much more of a wild ride with the NT01s. Lots of sliding and more steering wheel corrections.

I'm more tidy with the RRs. Now…not sure if I'll be even faster if I get more aggressive. The biggest improvement with the RRs is braking. And that's where most of my gains are over my time using NT01s.

I ran a mixed set of used RRs and NT01s awhile back. It felt normal. I'd do it again in a pinch. So I think calling an RR an NT01 without the tread is not a stretch at all.

[bigjae1976]

We have the track talk thread…and now the tire MEGAthread! What's next?

[derbo]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

We have the track talk thread…and now the tire MEGAthread! What's next?

Speed Hole Thread. roastbeef

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

We have the track talk thread…and now the tire MEGAthread! What's next?

brake thread

[Redd]

Originally Posted by derbo

What about the factory camaro tire? Goodyear super car3? Not the 3R but the 3.

Thanks for that. Will check out the GY Supercar 3 and also the Falken RT660

[derbo]

Originally Posted by Redd

Thanks for that. Will check out the GY Supercar 3 and also the Falken RT660

I think the wear on the SC3 will beat the RT660, but I suspect the latter will be faster tire.

[redpriest]

Originally Posted by DrFerry

Johnathan does some good stuff but I'm always a little suspicious when he tests at a tire manufacturer's facility because then their products seem to win his tests. Even the GY Supercar 3 testing that he did at Nelson Ledges - and was sponsored by GY - the GY SC3 and GYSC3R were the winners (came out on top)..
.

That test though is pretty much is accurate with what I've experienced with GY SC3 vs GY SC3R vs Pilot Sport Cup2 on my GT3RS. GY SC3 < Pilot Cup 2 < GY SC3R < Sport Cup2R

GY SC3R are pretty much the fastest 19" tires I can run other than Pirelli PZero slicks in GT3RS sizes of 265/35/19 325/30/19.

Pilot Sport Cup2R are fastest but my god, that thing only lasts for ONE SESSION at that high speed. Then it just falls off a cliff. It's not a tire for practice use, that's for damn sure!

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by redpriest

That test though is pretty much is accurate with what I've experienced with GY SC3 vs GY SC3R vs Pilot Sport Cup2 on my GT3RS. GY SC3 < Pilot Cup 2 < GY SC3R < Sport Cup2R

GY SC3R are pretty much the fastest 19" tires I can run other than Pirelli PZero slicks in GT3RS sizes of 265/35/19 325/30/19.

Pilot Sport Cup2R are fastest but my god, that thing only lasts for ONE SESSION at that high speed. Then it just falls off a cliff. It's not a tire for practice use, that's for damn sure!

That's great information. Johnathan's test agrees with your fastest tire experience where on a GT3 RS he found the Pilot Sport Cup 2R was the fastest but he found the GY SC3R grip dropped off more between those two tires in his own circuit testing. See his lap time delta in the photo below from lap 1 and lap 4.

As mentioned earlier he conducted his test at Michelin's test center using a car on loan from Porsche.. and the Michelin won. The host tire manufacturer's product winning the test seems to happen a lot whenever Johnathan tests at a tire manufacturer's facilities.

From Johnathan's test: "The Goodyear Eagle F1 SuperSport RS, Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 R and Pirelli P Zero Trofeo R are regarded as three of the fastest road-legal track day tyres in the world. To find out which of these three semi slick tires reign supreme, I've borrowed a 991.2 Porsche 911 GT3 RS, and have use of Michelin's tyre test facility in central France to run my own tyre testing program."
.

.
Pilot Sport Cup 2R vs. GY SC3R vs. Trofeo R

[rhyary]

When running tire tests and calling one tire faster than another because the delta is .1 or .2 differences is ignoring too many variables that happen on one lap.

Also, running a test for 4 laps does not capture the full $1600 experience of a tire life.

My point is that there is no substitute for your own goals of what you want from a tire.

Having said that, I look at a lot of tire reviews to learn what the evaluation criteria are? when I drive, what should I look for in addition to lap time?

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by rhyary

When running tire tests and calling one tire faster than another because the delta is .1 or .2 differences is ignoring too many variables that happen on one lap.

Also, running a test for 4 laps does not capture the full $1600 experience of a tire life.

My point is that there is no substitute for your own goals of what you want from a tire.

Having said that, I look at a lot of tire reviews to learn what the evaluation criteria are? when I drive, what should I look for in addition to lap time?

There are so many variables.

I'll give one. Hoosiers. People say they are good up to 4 seconds a lap vs a lower end R-comp like an NT01. I think that comes down to driving style, track temp, air temp, rubber on track, sun/cloud cover, tire condition, fuel load, driver condition, etc, etc. When I instruct I always stress to my students that the track evolves from lap to lap. You can get a similar comparison but never an absolute apples to apples comparison.

I look at data in braking zones. IMO, that is the ultimate indicator of grip. If I visually compare videos, comparing my own data, and being out on track the biggest difference among tires is threshold braking distance.

If I compare my own corner speeds to a GT3 cup car at COTA, I'm at 42mph in T1 and so is the GT3 cup car. The cup car is running a 2:13 lap and I'm running a 2:30 lap. At the track out point, I'm about 2-3mph slower - mostly due to a power deficit. Oddly…I'm actually at higher speeds in some parts on the track…only slightly!


The difference in lap time is I'm braking at about 125m from 123mph and he is braking 100m from 148mph. Suspension and aero play a role too but your limitation on braking grip is mostly tires.

So if we just eliminate the brake zones then maybe bigjae1976 > Porsche GT3 cup car🤣

[rhyary]

Excellent point bigjae1976
This is why I wanted to have the ability to analyze when the ABS kicks in using AIM. On the PT6 protocol the 10hz limitation was not fast enough.

AIM increased the sampling rate max to 25 and 50hz.

If you are using AIM and the PT6 CAN bus, I recommend updating your config profile to the latest PT6 (2.00.06) and increase the sampling rate to 25Hz.

using the deriv(brake press specific wheel) watch the brake pressure fluctuate while the BRAKE PRESS is INCREASING.

BRAKE PRESS is what you do
BRSKE PRESS individual wheel is what the car is doing.

Tire related content
Compare your data among different tires.
A stickier tire will kick the ABS at a higher brake pressure.

For example, on UHP All season my ABS was kicking in at 800psi and on used track tires from last year it was kicking in at 1200psi

Also, observe the point in which there is no point pressing the brake pedal harder. There was no point going above 800psi on the all season, meaning find other aways to gain speed.

Not only you can see the difference among tires.
This also allows you to monitor one aspect of tire deterioration toward the end of tire lives (not counting the edge deterioration)

[rhyary]

>> So if we just eliminate the brake zones then maybe bigjae1976 >=Porsche GT3 cup car🤣

Fixed it for you

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by rhyary

>> So if we just eliminate the brake zones then maybe bigjae1976 >=Porsche GT3 cup car🤣

Fixed it for you

Thanks!

Originally Posted by rhyary

Excellent point bigjae1976
This is why I wanted to have the ability to analyze when the ABS kicks in using AIM. On the PT6 protocol the 10hz limitation was not fast enough.

AIM increased the sampling rate max to 25 and 50hz.

If you are using AIM and the PT6 CAN bus, I recommend updating your config profile to the latest PT6 (2.00.06) and increase the sampling rate to 25Hz.

using the deriv(brake press specific wheel) watch the brake pressure fluctuate while the BRAKE PRESS is INCREASING.

BRAKE PRESS is what you do
BRSKE PRESS individual wheel is what the car is doing.

Tire related content
Compare your data among different tires.
A stickier tire will kick the ABS at a higher brake pressure.

For example, on UHP All season my ABS was kicking in at 800psi and on used track tires from last year it was kicking in at 1200psi

Also, observe the point in which there is no point pressing the brake pedal harder. There was no point going above 800psi on the all season, meaning find other aways to gain speed.

Not only you can see the difference among tires.
This also allows you to monitor one aspect of tire deterioration toward the end of tire lives (not counting the edge deterioration)

I use an AiM SoloDL which measures G-forces. You can use forward accel G's to measure braking forces. I am not sure how accurate the SoloDL is.

Someday, I want to upgrade to an AiM dash in my E46 and install pressure sensors on the brake lines. Morehead Speedworks makes a handy brake line with a bung for a pressure sensor.

I am curious to see what the options are for an E9X.