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      12-05-2019, 06:28 AM   #10759
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Is this the e92 M3 widebody GT with S62 car? I need that engine!
If I remember correctly, Grand Am GT cars of that era were 100% tube frame cars so about the only thing on that car that was BMW besides the outer skin was the S62.
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      12-07-2019, 09:49 AM   #10760
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Some tires and camber conclusions from my 2019 and projections to 2020.

If you followed my posts here, you know I went through lots of configurations, much to the chagrin of forum members. Here are some learning lessons and implications to the 2020 season. Advice and comments are welcomed.

The season was mostly done using -3.0 front camber and -2.0 on the rear. I don't have useful info on the rear. It was on constant 295/30/19 with all tires experiments

The front saw four sizes
235/35/19 slick RR
265/35/19 slick R7
265/30/19 100/200 type tires R888R, ADOR8, PS4S
275/30/19 road/rain tires (say PS4S or similar)

Some of the above are more 2017-18. Of interest in 2019 are two sizes - 235 and 265 /35

The 235/35 RR are SIGNIFICANT cheaper and the delta between the RR and R7/A7 is $600.

In 2019 I have 14 x 20 min sessions in two days.
7 per day

Neither the 235 nor the 265 were able to finish 14 sessions on pace below 1:40. Above 1:40 there is not real issue.

The 235 corded the INSIDE after 10 x 20min session. swapping sides coded both front

The 265 coded the OUTSIDE after 10 x 20 sessions.

both tires on -3.0 could not finish two days on pace.

So 2020 I plan to start on -2.5 front camber and RR 235. Only one reason. cheaper.

I get best time on that, and depending on finance, I will switch to 265 and -3.5 and test.

My goal is to finish two day 14 x 20m on either set at pace sub 1:40

For the record, my best time with 235 RR is 1:37.2 and best time on 265 is 1:35.7.

On the R7 265, I did multiple 1:36 and best accomplishment is 1:36.1 with traction control off.
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      12-07-2019, 09:58 AM   #10761
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Some tires and camber conclusions from my 2019 and projections to 2020.
So an r7 would only last a 2 day track weekend? Damn
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      12-07-2019, 10:38 AM   #10762
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Some tires and camber conclusions from my 2019 and projections to 2020.

If you followed my posts here, you know I went through lots of configurations, much to the chagrin of forum members. Here are some learning lessons and implications to the 2020 season. Advice and comments are welcomed.

The season was mostly done using -3.0 front camber and -2.0 on the rear. I don't have useful info on the rear. It was on constant 295/30/19 with all tires experiments

The front saw four sizes
235/35/19 slick RR
265/35/19 slick R7
265/30/19 100/200 type tires R888R, ADOR8, PS4S
275/30/19 road/rain tires (say PS4S or similar)

Some of the above are more 2017-18. Of interest in 2019 are two sizes - 235 and 265 /35
Iím sure youíve mentioned this before but I probably missed it. Why not testing 18ís at all??
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      12-07-2019, 10:41 AM   #10763
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b4hand View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Some tires and camber conclusions from my 2019 and projections to 2020.
So an r7 would only last a 2 day track weekend? Damn
Typically this is how I finish the second day:
.
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      12-07-2019, 10:54 AM   #10764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelse92 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Some tires and camber conclusions from my 2019 and projections to 2020.

If you followed my posts here, you know I went through lots of configurations, much to the chagrin of forum members. Here are some learning lessons and implications to the 2020 season. Advice and comments are welcomed.

The season was mostly done using -3.0 front camber and -2.0 on the rear. I don't have useful info on the rear. It was on constant 295/30/19 with all tires experiments

The front saw four sizes
235/35/19 slick RR
265/35/19 slick R7
265/30/19 100/200 type tires R888R, ADOR8, PS4S
275/30/19 road/rain tires (say PS4S or similar)

Some of the above are more 2017-18. Of interest in 2019 are two sizes - 235 and 265 /35
I’m sure you’ve mentioned this before but I probably missed it. Why not testing 18’s at all??
Yes, the 18" 19" has been covered extensively.
In short, 18" won't clear my Brembo brakes
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      12-07-2019, 01:00 PM   #10765
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Yes, the 18" 19" has been covered extensively.
In short, 18" won't clear my Brembo brakes
Wait....is that an F8x M3 hub? Are you on 14mm studs?
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      12-07-2019, 01:06 PM   #10766
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So you're going to be running RR's 295 rear and 235 front? On an M3?!
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      12-07-2019, 02:50 PM   #10767
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Originally Posted by Bartledoo View Post
So you're going to be running RR's 295 rear and 235 front? On an M3?!
Yap, fastest and cheapest combination after the R7 set. Another way to think about the delta between 1:37.2 and 1:35.7 is $600 of tires.

That is the cost of two track days for less than 2 second.

I have to admit that the grip of front R7 265/35/19 is intoxicating.

BTW, while 235 sounds narrow, I calculated width of rubber on the road of 245, 265, and 275 and everything I measured had LESS contact patch than the RR 235. And the data backs it up.
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      12-07-2019, 03:03 PM   #10768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
Wait....is that an F8x M3 hub? Are you on 14mm studs?
https://ind-distribution.com/collect...b-retrofit-kit
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      12-07-2019, 04:29 PM   #10769
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Ah ok. The Future Classic setup. Nice. When did you move over to that?
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      12-07-2019, 08:27 PM   #10770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
I have to admit that the grip of front R7 265/35/19 is intoxicating.

BTW, while 235 sounds narrow, I calculated width of rubber on the road of 245, 265, and 275 and everything I measured had LESS contact patch than the RR 235. And the data backs it up.
these statements essentially contradict each other.

more grip with a 265, but somehow the 235 has a larger contact patch? contact is directly related to grip.
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      12-07-2019, 10:24 PM   #10771
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
these statements essentially contradict each other.

more grip with a 265, but somehow the 235 has a larger contact patch? contact is directly related to grip.
Even if the 235 has a larger contact patch, the real difference comes from the difference in rubber compound. The R7's are considerably stickier then the RR's, thus the difference in grip.

For example, a set of 255 slicks will be faster then a set of 295 AR1/RR's, etc. comparable R-comp tires. They may overheat easier and wear more quicker due to the the narrower contact patch - but they will be faster.
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      12-07-2019, 11:58 PM   #10772
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because of the variance of treadwear ratings differing between brands coupled with environmental variables, it might be impossible to even make that comparison. there is going to be an overlap somewhere with a high grip skinny tire, and a lower grip, wider tire, but its going to be almost impossible to determine where.
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      12-08-2019, 02:34 AM   #10773
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Initially, I also refrained from commenting. Maybe rhyary is giving us the tl;dr of his notes?

Different compounds and different tyres are going to require different alignments. I have no idea which "265" is being compared here:

Quote:
The 265 coded the OUTSIDE after 10 x 20 sessions.

both tires on -3.0 could not finish two days on pace.
If that was feedback on PS4S, I wouldn't be surprised. It's an elite road tyre that has no place on a dry track unless you keep a razor sharp eye on temps/pressures plus, drive below the limit with sympathy for the tyre .
AD08Rs have steel inserts and should cope decently with camber. I ran them at -2.8 on soft OEM suspension (1M being softer I suppose?) and same set once at -3.4 with coilovers (570lbs/in). If you corded (or wore/tore?) the A7/R7, needs more camber! A probe pyro would tell you this immediately.
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      12-08-2019, 03:44 AM   #10774
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Regardless of his contact patch calculations and comparisons of wide x brand tires to the 235 RR, he said he was running 295 rear RR and 235 front RR. I can't imagine that M3, with its relatively typical overall track setup, not handling like crap and understeering horribly.
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      12-08-2019, 06:26 AM   #10775
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Yes, the 18" 19" has been covered extensively.
In short, 18" won't clear my Brembo brakes
Wait....is that an F8x M3 hub? Are you on 14mm studs?
I am. Front and Rear. MSI
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      12-08-2019, 06:30 AM   #10776
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
I have to admit that the grip of front R7 265/35/19 is intoxicating.

BTW, while 235 sounds narrow, I calculated width of rubber on the road of 245, 265, and 275 and everything I measured had LESS contact patch than the RR 235. And the data backs it up.
these statements essentially contradict each other.

more grip with a 265, but somehow the 235 has a larger contact patch? contact is directly related to grip.
with the exception of the R7 which is also slick
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      12-08-2019, 06:32 AM   #10777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
because of the variance of treadwear ratings differing between brands coupled with environmental variables, it might be impossible to even make that comparison. there is going to be an overlap somewhere with a high grip skinny tire, and a lower grip, wider tire, but its going to be almost impossible to determine where.
I have lap times to correlate to my statements.
But, non of it is scientific so take it as observation.

For example, with the RR 235, I was easily doing multiple 1:37 on multiple sessions through out the day throughout the season.

On the ADOR8, while my fastest time is 1:37.2, most of the laps were 1:38-39 and only few sessions in the fall when it was cooler.
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      12-08-2019, 06:33 AM   #10778
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmx View Post
Initially, I also refrained from commenting. Maybe rhyary is giving us the tl;dr of his notes?

Different compounds and different tyres are going to require different alignments. I have no idea which "265" is being compared here:

Quote:
The 265 coded the OUTSIDE after 10 x 20 sessions.

both tires on -3.0 could not finish two days on pace.
If that was feedback on PS4S, I wouldn't be surprised. It's an elite road tyre that has no place on a dry track unless you keep a razor sharp eye on temps/pressures plus, drive below the limit with sympathy for the tyre .
AD08Rs have steel inserts and should cope decently with camber. I ran them at -2.8 on soft OEM suspension (1M being softer I suppose?) and same set once at -3.4 with coilovers (570lbs/in). If you corded (or wore/tore?) the A7/R7, needs more camber! A probe pyro would tell you this immediately.
I thought I was clear that it was between two slicks, RR and R7
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      12-08-2019, 06:34 AM   #10779
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmx View Post
Initially, I also refrained from commenting. Maybe rhyary is giving us the tl;dr of his notes?

Different compounds and different tyres are going to require different alignments. I have no idea which "265" is being compared here:

Quote:
The 265 coded the OUTSIDE after 10 x 20 sessions.

both tires on -3.0 could not finish two days on pace.
If that was feedback on PS4S, I wouldn't be surprised. It's an elite road tyre that has no place on a dry track unless you keep a razor sharp eye on temps/pressures plus, drive below the limit with sympathy for the tyre .
AD08Rs have steel inserts and should cope decently with camber. I ran them at -2.8 on soft OEM suspension (1M being softer I suppose?) and same set once at -3.4 with coilovers (570lbs/in). If you corded (or wore/tore?) the A7/R7, needs more camber! A probe pyro would tell you this immediately.
With PS4S 275/30/19 front I did 1:38 on semi wet track. So it is fantastic tire, but not compares to RR and R7 in the dry
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      12-08-2019, 07:09 AM   #10780
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartledoo View Post
Regardless of his contact patch calculations and comparisons of wide x brand tires to the 235 RR, he said he was running 295 rear RR and 235 front RR. I can't imagine that M3, with its relatively typical overall track setup, not handling like crap and understeering horribly.
Well, perhaps on paper 235 295 understeer like crazy, but it does not. I somewhat understeer but it is manageable.

The only combination that got me into 1:37 besides RR and R7 is the ADO8R when I was on 265/30/19 front. At that time, I was afraid that 265/35/19 won't fit. But @slicer posts and others convinced me to try the R7 size ls to 265/35/19. It worked ver well.

I liked the ADOR8 the most on the track out of the non slicks.

I love the PS4S 275/30/19 on the road and in the wet on the track.

So a viable non-slick option is the ADO8R in 265/35/19 295/30/19. The the price is almost like the R7, so for the price, I rather get the R7. But I am very curious to give that combination a try.

The RR is not ideal, but factoring the RR price of less than $1000 for a set, and $237 front is very compelling option. And fast.

The RR rears last many track days (so was the R7)

So I rather experiment with the RR since it is the lowest price for almost fastest time.

Last comment about the PS4S. While wonderful tire in the wet and damp surface, in the dry at a 1:38 pace I am peeling the rubber of the tire. So not just wear, but the rubber is too soft.

The ADO8R where impressive at 1:38/37 pace but again I was on -2.5 when I tried them and corded the outside.

In general, I think it is good to be skeptical of anyones findings. At the same time, I have close to 70 track days on the same track, and I am running one of the fastest times on that track given HP and weight. So perhaps it means something. Or not. Who knows.
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