Track forum general chit chat.

[Chris_PDX]

Originally Posted by Grip Addict

Anyone here with track experience do any lead/follow events?

I just did one at Summit Point a week or so ago. While the speeds are barely 100 mph, cannot pass, I think it is great for keeping seat time and simply learning the lines of a track. Thoughts?

I've done L/F coaching for several years for advanced students, and during COVID for everyone. We just now transitioned back to in-car this year if everyone is vaccinated.

Should L/F be slower than in car? Yes, because in order for it to work you need a fairly close following distance, and that presents safety concerns. Can you go faster than 100mph? Also yes.

None of the organizations I coach/instruct with have 100mph speed limits for L/F. One club we limit novices for the first two sessions just to get them acclimated but after lunch it's wide open. I've hit 130+ with a student following me. You have to manage their braking at those speeds (i.e. I verbally tell them to brake and then let a gap build before I brake at the end of the fast straights), but it's doable.

That includes swapping throughout the day/session so you lead and I follow, etc. And normal passing rules for faster traffic, except every pass is a two-car situation (or a pod, as we call it).

[Chris_PDX]

Originally Posted by Grip Addict

Honestly, I think everyone should adopt SCCA Track Night's formula. You don't NEED an instructor to go on track.

100%, wholeheartedly, absolutely, disagree.

SCCA Track Night in America is absolute trash. It's a crapshoot at what you get, depending on the region and the people who show up. I've well over 100 HPDE events (20+ a year), and I've had around 5 close calls with car-to-car contact. Those five where at TWO SCCA TNIA events. And at those two events I saw two wall contacts (one of which resulted in a completely totaled car).

This is a hobby that people literally die doing. It's rare, but it happens. Serious mechanical damage or minor injuries is a thing. Track days that just allow people to self select into run groups and provide no instruction do nothing but reinforce the "I play Forza so I'm a driving God" mindset. You don't learn to drive properly at those events.

End soapbox. Fuck TNIA. *grumbles*

[Bimmer Barney]

Originally Posted by Grip Addict

Anyone here with track experience do any lead/follow events?

I just did one at Summit Point a week or so ago. While the speeds are barely 100 mph, cannot pass, I think it is great for keeping seat time and simply learning the lines of a track. Thoughts?

Video below of the pace to determine the value:

I did lead follow at BMW experience at thermal in M4 competitions and M8 competitions. Drivers in the lead car we're good enough to be able to pick up their pace to stay in front and so I was never able to catch them, and was able to drive my hardest. So, I think it all depends on who the instructor is or who the lead car is and their ability to set pace

[Kelse92]

The key to lead-follow is how b4hand described it and how we tried/try to do in Lone Star BMW CCA and Eagles Canyon HPDE days. 1:1 for intermediate, 3:1 for novices to learn the line then switch around slower/faster students into groups that make more sense for similar paces. Lead instructor goes faster and faster until the students can’t keep up and then dials it back.
It’s pretty effective when played as a true cat & mouse game and not just “fixate on my line” that won’t be remembered once the instructor is back in the car anyway honestly.
Just my .02 from doing some in-car and lead-follow in the last year.
In-car is best, but I think there’s a place for lead follow too. Especially for an intermediate student who already knows the line but needs someone to try and chase to go faster.

[Chris_PDX]

Originally Posted by Kelse92

needs someone to try and chase to go faster.

As a coach, I find that even my new PB's are due to chasing someone, especially someone who's only a second or so quicker.

[dparm]

I know everyone loves to pull into the pits and just veg out for an hour until the next session, but why aren't you using the time to go talk to the guy who is faster than you?

Chock the wheels, pop the hood, grab your water, and then go ask him/her if you can grid up just behind on the next session. You can either drive home saying "wow that guy in car X was really fast" or "wow I took 2 seconds off".

Some people just like farting around on the track at 8/10ths, fine.

[b4hand]

Originally Posted by dparm

I know everyone loves to pull into the pits and just veg out for an hour until the next session, but why aren't you using the time to go talk to the guy who is faster than you?

Chock the wheels, pop the hood, grab your water, and then go ask him/her if you can grid up just behind on the next session. You can either drive home saying "wow that guy in car X was really fast" or "wow I took 2 seconds off".

Some people just like farting around on the track at 8/10ths, fine.

I do this almost every session. Find some guy/gal who's flying and ask for help on corners I am struggling on. It's great.

[Move Over]

Originally Posted by dparm

I know everyone loves to pull into the pits and just veg out for an hour until the next session, but why aren't you using the time to go talk to the guy who is faster than you?

Chock the wheels, pop the hood, grab your water, and then go ask him/her if you can grid up just behind on the next session. You can either drive home saying "wow that guy in car X was really fast" or "wow I took 2 seconds off".

Some people just like farting around on the track at 8/10ths, fine.

Love doing this, there should be little relaxation time in between sessions in my book lol. I also can't stand the crew I see at the hotel cracking beers the night before a track day, I've never understood.

There was an s54 e36 at barber last year who was COOKIN. 4-5 seconds faster than me easy at the beginning of the weekend. Spent most of my weekend chatting with him and reviewing data, by the end of the weekend we were within a half second. Learning can always be done

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by dparm

I know everyone loves to pull into the pits and just veg out for an hour until the next session, but why aren't you using the time to go talk to the guy who is faster than you?

Chock the wheels, pop the hood, grab your water, and then go ask him/her if you can grid up just behind on the next session. You can either drive home saying "wow that guy in car X was really fast" or "wow I took 2 seconds off".

Some people just like farting around on the track at 8/10ths, fine.

Also taking a ride is good. I give tons of rides to people looking to improve.

However, I’ve literally never popped my hood for cooling haha. Too paranoid it will get left unlatched once out of the potential 1000’s of sessions over my lifetime.

[Exclusivs]

Random:

Best place to source BK stuff fastest?

TIA!

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by Exclusivs

Random:

Best place to source BK stuff fastest?

TIA!

I ordered through slicer just yesterday.

[Bimmer Barney]

Originally Posted by dparm

I know everyone loves to pull into the pits and just veg out for an hour until the next session, but why aren't you using the time to go talk to the guy who is faster than you?

Chock the wheels, pop the hood, grab your water, and then go ask him/her if you can grid up just behind on the next session. You can either drive home saying "wow that guy in car X was really fast" or "wow I took 2 seconds off".

Some people just like farting around on the track at 8/10ths, fine.

I do it just to be friendly and conversational. My first track day in the M3 this guy in an M4 with some aero came over and said "have you ever tracked before? Your lines are really bad"

That was at buttonwillow which I had done many motorcycle days at so maybe my lines were just wrong for 4 wheelers vs 2, but I asked him if I could grid up behind him and he said yes. On the second lap he took off 🤷🏻*♂️ once tires were warm so I pulled into the pits and told the starter to send me out behind him and then ran him down and passed him, and that was that.

Now when I I do track days I try to find someone who is skilled and comfortable lapping closely together and taking turns leading in a game of cat and mouse. It's usually someone in a Miata or a Porsche or another M3. I no longer care as much about fast lap times because I'm not training for actual racing, I look at my own time slips for consistent lap times. I tend to have more fun now doing that.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Barney

I do it just to be friendly and conversational. My first track day in the M3 this guy in an M4 with some aero came over and said "have you ever tracked before? Your lines are really bad"

That was at buttonwillow which I had done many motorcycle days at so maybe my lines were just wrong for 4 wheelers vs 2, but I asked him if I could grid up behind him and he said yes. On the second lap he took off 🤷🏻*♂️ once tires were warm so I pulled into the pits and told the starter to send me out behind him and then ran him down and passed him, and that was that.

Now when I I do track days I try to find someone who is skilled and comfortable lapping closely together and taking turns leading in a game of cat and mouse. It's usually someone in a Miata or a Porsche or another M3. I no longer care as much about fast lap times because I'm not training for actual racing, I look at my own time slips for consistent lap times. I tend to have more fun now doing that.

this is exactly how my HPDE days are.

i always try to see if i can grid behind the fastest guy in my session to see where i can pick up brake points, apex etc.

but i also go out to see if i can run a specific time for all of the day. i prefer to hit a target time over and over vs the fastest.

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by b4hand

I do this almost every session. Find some guy/gal who's flying and ask for help on corners I am struggling on. It's great.

Might see if you can catch a ride with them too - I find that can really help.

Oh and we missed you at COTA last weekend - was playing taxi service all weekend. Had a lot of first timers around a track in the car - lots of fun. Would always get a bit of a chuckle the first hard braking at 150m into 12 . My M2C will always have a passenger seat so that anyone that wants to can ride - really was a lot of fun.

[Kelse92]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

i prefer to hit a target time over and over vs the fastest.

This is so key. It’s how we started measuring our students in NASA HPDE around here too. No run group move up until you can demonstrate consistency in your lap times within a certain time delta. It’s great to go out and put down a fast lap, but if you can’t go repeat it, what’s the use?

[dparm]

Originally Posted by Exclusivs

Random:

Best place to source BK stuff fastest?

TIA!

Northstar Motorsports or Competition Motorsports, though my experience has been that most places are just drop-shipping from BK.

[dogbone]

Interesting conversation. In my years of tracking, many many people have come over to my car to ask questions about the hardware. But very few people have ever come over to ask about how I drive the track. It does happen, but it's infrequent.

I love to ask track experts about how they drive a track. fsmtnbiker walked me through turn by turn at High Plains when I brought my E90 to CO. And after practicing WGI on the simulator, I was asking SYT_Shadow and his brother about many of the turns there before I even got onto the track. And then at VIR, I was talking to SYT_Shadow and his brother after various sessions about different parts of the track.

I think there are two things going here:
1. Sometimes I guess people are a bit shy and don't know if they can approach you.
2. Ego. I think there are a lot of egos and testosterone flowing at a racetrack, and people can't bring themselves to do it.

When I'm at a track with friends, we download data and sit there and compare things. The data shows a lot of great stuff and you hope that everyone can walk away with something to work on.

I try to leave my ego at home and I'm happy to learn from others, and I appreciate when someone else is willing to share their knowledge. Plus, we're at a racetrack! Let's talk about the damn track!

[derbo]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Interesting conversation. In my years of tracking, many many people have come over to my car to ask questions about the hardware. But very few people have ever come over to ask about how I drive the track. It does happen, but it's infrequent.

I love to ask track experts about how they drive a track. fsmtnbiker walked me through turn by turn at High Plains when I brought my E90 to CO. And after practicing WGI on the simulator, I was asking SYT_Shadow and his brother about many of the turns there before I even got onto the track. And then at VIR, I was talking to SYT_Shadow and his brother after various sessions about different parts of the track.

I think there are two things going here:
1. Sometimes I guess people are a bit shy and don't know if they can approach you.
2. Ego. I think there are a lot of egos and testosterone flowing at a racetrack, and people can't bring themselves to do it.

When I'm at a track with friends, we download data and sit there and compare things. The data shows a lot of great stuff and you hope that everyone can walk away with something to work on.

I try to leave my ego at home and I'm happy to learn from others, and I appreciate when someone else is willing to share their knowledge. Plus, we're at a racetrack! Let's talk about the damn track!

I'm with you there! I'm not an expert and that means I can always learn! Hell, even F1 drivers seem to learn more throughout their careers. I always felt like the goal is to always constantly improve some aspect of driver skill as I got plenty to learn!

[b4hand]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

Might see if you can catch a ride with them too - I find that can really help.

Oh and we missed you at COTA last weekend - was playing taxi service all weekend. Had a lot of first timers around a track in the car - lots of fun. Would always get a bit of a chuckle the first hard braking at 150m into 12 . My M2C will always have a passenger seat so that anyone that wants to can ride - really was a lot of fun.

That feel when they tell their buddy they're going to be slow because they have extra weight

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by b4hand

That feel when they tell their buddy they're going to be slow because they have extra weight

You got me all wrong - I need you to help balance me out. Thought the car might flip over on those high speed rights with that generous stock lean

Pretty sure we were pushing +4,000lbs on a couple of those runs last weekend...

[roastbeef]

Trailer peeps- is 7' wide enough for an open trailer?

[Kelse92]

The deck on ours is 78” wide for a car, but technically 84” total fender to fender. It’s plenty of room for most cars. Big thing to consider is the style of the trailer. We have a Sloan Kwik Load that makes it easy to not have to worry about removing a fender to open/close the car door when loading thanks to the rollback design.