Gintani twin turbo m3 e85 results!!! ***Dyno video added***

[Shredicus]

Originally Posted by Pro-AM3

Are you serious with those statements?

Somebody better explain BMEP

[Properstyle]

Originally Posted by Pro-AM3

Are you serious with those statements?

Very why? because boost is not flat across all applications. 11psi out a t3 flange 2867 gtx garrett turbo makes alot less power than 11 psi out of t4 percision 6870. Boost it self is not what destroys the motor, it's factors around it like timing, octane, cylinder temps. Saying oh I'm only running 6 psi i'm safe because another car made it safely on 10 psi would be foolish unless you know the amount of timing another car ran safely to make that higher boost.

So yes I stick to that statement that boost is not the killer. On pump gas on a new chevy ss we ran 14 psi out of a heart beat blower on a ls3 block on stock compression. Now if you search the web you will find this isn't possible with out popping the motor. The statement is true and false, true you can't run 14psi with aggressive timing and the motor live, false because you can pull timing out of the map for pump gas and save the motor and use more aggressive timing on e85 like we did. car made 641 on pump and 738 on e85. both at the same boost with no change to pullies.

If you take two motors will say a evo 10 I4 and a lsa v8, if both motors ran a 6870 turbo both at 20psi the 4cylinder will in fact see more stress than the v8, this is nothing new.

[Pro-AM3]

Originally Posted by Properstyle

Very why? because boost is not flat across all applications. 11psi out a t3 flange 2867 gtx garrett turbo makes alot less power than 11 psi out of t4 percision 6870. Boost it self is not what destroys the motor, it's factors around it like timing, octane, cylinder temps. Saying oh I'm only running 6 psi i'm safe because another car made it safely on 10 psi would be foolish unless you know the amount of timing another car ran safely to make that higher boost.

So yes I stick to that statement that boost is not the killer. On pump gas on a new chevy ss we ran 14 psi out of a heart beat blower on a ls3 block on stock compression. Now if you search the web you will find this isn't possible with out popping the motor. The statement is true and false, true you can't run 14psi with aggressive timing and the motor live, false because you can pull timing out of the map for pump gas and save the motor and use more aggressive timing on e85 like we did. car made 641 on pump and 738 on e85. both at the same boost with no change to pullies.

If you take two motors will say a evo 10 I4 and a lsa v8, if both motors ran a 6870 turbo both at 20psi the 4cylinder will in fact see more stress than the v8, this is nothing new.

lol. SO what CFM is the turbo pushing 11psi @4k rpms vs the cfm of 11psi at 8k rpms.. because i didnt know there were 2 flow rates for the same turbo at the same psi

[Properstyle]

Originally Posted by Pro-AM3

lol. SO what CFM is the turbo pushing 11psi @4k rpms vs the cfm of 11psi at 8k rpms.. because i didnt know there were 2 flow rates for the same turbo at the same psi

That didn't even make sense, no one said there were two differently flow rate for the same turbo. I spoke to stress on components, what the hell are you talking about.

[AWTT335i]

Originally Posted by Pro-AM3

lol. SO what CFM is the turbo pushing 11psi @4k rpms vs the cfm of 11psi at 8k rpms.. because i didnt know there were 2 flow rates for the same turbo at the same psi

PSI is a measure of back pressure. Depending on the application, 11psi could be indicative of completely different airflow for the same turbo on an S65 vs an N54 for example. You need to know mass air flow.

[Pro-AM3]

Originally Posted by Properstyle

That didn't even make sense, no one said there were two differently flow rate for the same turbo. I spoke to stress on components, what the hell are you talking about.

you went on about a gtx and a pte, different sized turbos to support your claim aboutpsi #rpms, but as far as i know, this it is only pushing one turbo, so i showed that what you wre saying doesnt make sense, make sense?

[Pro-AM3]

Originally Posted by AWTT335i

PSI is a measure of back pressure. Depending on the application, 11psi could be indicative of completely different airflow for the same turbo on an S65 vs an N54 for example. You need to know mass air flow.

I odnt think you have been following his claims. what is the difference between CFm and mass airflow?

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by Pro-AM3

I odnt think you have been following his claims. what is the difference between CFm and mass airflow?

CFM is volume flow rate and mass airflow is the mass flow rate. The number of molecules of air per unit volume ideally varies depending on temperature and pressure. The number of molecules per unit mass is constant. Therefore the most easily comparable variable is mass/mole/molecular flow rate. However the amount of peak cylinder pressure and piston/rod accel/jerk is variable based on many factors it still isn't so simple to make comparisons for the variety of stresses induced.

[s85e90]

Originally Posted by Properstyle

rods bending come from things other than tq. I.e. Detonation, cylinder temps which are also driven byt AIT and timing. If you are using a DCT car a 11PSI at 8k will be seen during the whole race after the first shift. So you in fact will see that stress alot more than people realize. But there is a nice trade off. with a turbo setup the crank no longer has tension on it for the blower. the car no longer has parasitic lost at the crank. I don't see him having much issue at all with the car.

11 psi is not spread across cylinders, it's 11 psi. And TQ at low RPM bends rods.

[Pro-AM3]

Originally Posted by ksteckba

CFM is volume flow rate and mass airflow is the mass flow rate. The number of molecules of air per unit volume ideally varies depending on temperature and pressure. The number of molecules per unit mass is constant. Therefore the most easily comparable variable is mass/mole/molecular flow rate. However the amount of peak cylinder pressure and piston/rod accel/jerk is variable based on many factors it still isn't so simple to make comparisons for the variety of stresses induced.

Im actually well aware of the difference, but I dont think you have been following his claims all the way either.

Is either #going to change (measurably- obviously Da can change in the 1-2 seconds to go from 4-8k rpms in the real world) @ 11psi @ 4k rpms or 11psi @ 8k rpms?

[Spoolin1]

Are the internals of the S65 forged? If they are he will be just fine running 11 psi on good fuel and a good tune. My F20c S2000 was on 34 psi of boost on the stock block and making over 800 whp for years; that's 11:1 CR. The F20c comes from the factory with forged internals though and an open deck block. Only upgrades were L19 studs and a built head.

Props to the OP on the twin turbo build, very impressive.

[Properstyle]

Originally Posted by Pro-AM3

you went on about a gtx and a pte, different sized turbos to support your claim aboutpsi #rpms, but as far as i know, this it is only pushing one turbo, so i showed that what you wre saying doesnt make sense, make sense?

I'm starting to think you are really dense if you don't see the point of what was being said. Smh. I even used an example of the same turbo on different motors having putting a different level of stress. people are comparing 11psi on supercharged setups to a 11 psi on a twin turbo setup. which is even worse comparison. while everyone is so bent on his car failing has anyone taken the time to actually find out the measure difference of temperature of the air being produced by both? the CFS and CFM rating on the twins he is running vs a v3 supercharger. Or hell even the propeller blade speed needed to reach a set psi on a v3 vs the turbos he is running? the cylinder temp of a car on 93 pump vs e85. bmw owners are the quickest to want something to fail that's not inline with the set way everyone else does things smh.

[Lucrecio84]

Originally Posted by Properstyle

I'm starting to think you are really dense if you don't see the point of what was being said. Smh. I even used an example of the same turbo on different motors having putting a different level of stress. people are comparing 11psi on supercharged setups to a 11 psi on a twin turbo setup. which is even worse comparison. while everyone is so bent on his car failing has anyone taken the time to actually find out the measure difference of temperature of the air being produced by both? the CFS and CFM rating on the twins he is running vs a v3 supercharger. Or hell even the propeller blade speed needed to reach a set psi on a v3 vs the turbos he is running? the cylinder temp of a car on 93 pump vs e85. bmw owners are the quickest to want something to fail that's not inline with the set way everyone else does things smh.

Amen

[Pro-AM3]

Originally Posted by Spoolin1

Are the internals of the S65 forged? If they are he will be just fine running 11 psi on good fuel and a good tune. My F20c S2000 was on 34 psi of boost on the stock block and making over 800 whp for years; that's 11:1 CR. The F20c comes from the factory with forged internals though and an open deck block. Only upgrades were L19 studs and a built head.

Props to the OP on the twin turbo build, very impressive.

They are not. plenty of motors have let go with centri setups and 8.5+ psi, which at that level, 100+ octane is required. they dont even sell those kits to the open public.

[Pro-AM3]

Originally Posted by Properstyle

I'm starting to think you are really dense if you don't see the point of what was being said. Smh. I even used an example of the same turbo on different motors having putting a different level of stress. people are comparing 11psi on supercharged setups to a 11 psi on a twin turbo setup. which is even worse comparison. while everyone is so bent on his car failing has anyone taken the time to actually find out the measure difference of temperature of the air being produced by both? the CFS and CFM rating on the twins he is running vs a v3 supercharger. Or hell even the propeller blade speed needed to reach a set psi on a v3 vs the turbos he is running? the cylinder temp of a car on 93 pump vs e85. bmw owners are the quickest to want something to fail that's not inline with the set way everyone else does things smh.

Thats crazy, you just tried to turn my entire argument against myself as if it were your intention, how did that happen?

I guess if your now arguing for me, then i was correct.

But you never answered my questions.

Lucrecio, what turbos on there, i dont recall seeing it mentioned

[Properstyle]

Originally Posted by Pro-AM3

They are not. plenty of motors have let go with centri setups and 8.5+ psi, which at that level, 100+ octane is required. they dont even sell those kits to the open public.

Originally Posted by Pro-AM3

Thats crazy, you just tried to turn my entire argument against myself as if it were your intention, how did that happen?

I guess if your now arguing for me, then i was correct.

But you never answered my questions.

Lucrecio, what turbos on there, i dont recall seeing it mentioned

Pretty sure I've stayed the same path that there are many more factors that kill motors then just say he is running 11 psi so he is going to fail it makes this much tq so it's going to fail lol.. but nice tryn, here is food for through e85 burns cooler then race gas does. Octane in racegas is there to prevent detonation but the cylinder temps are still high on race gas. E85 allows the car to run cooler in boost and prevents detonation which also means less stress on the rods and pistons but hell you seem to think you have it all figured out lol...

[Spoolin1]

Originally Posted by Pro-AM3

They are not. plenty of motors have let go with centri setups and 8.5+ psi, which at that level, 100+ octane is required. they dont even sell those kits to the open public.

Hmmmm...... 11 psi may be pushing things then. We shall see I guess.

[jcolley]

Originally Posted by Pro-AM3

I odnt think you have been following his claims. what is the difference between CFm and mass airflow?

One is volumetric flow rate and one is mass flow rate.

[Pro-AM3]

Originally Posted by Properstyle

Pretty sure I've stayed the same path that there are many more factors that kill motors then just say he is running 11 psi so he is going to fail it makes this much tq so it's going to fail lol.. but nice tryn, here is food for through e85 burns cooler then race gas does. Octane in racegas is there to prevent detonation but the cylinder temps are still high on race gas. E85 allows the car to run cooler in boost and prevents detonation which also means less stress on the rods and pistons but hell you seem to think you have it all figured out lol...

ok, lets try to dumb this down for you even further.

We will discuss strictly the S65. With lets just say 100 octane race fuel, and lets just say 27* timing, how much volume of air does it require to make 700hp# 8k rpms, and lets just ask how much MASS air is required to make 700hp@ 8k rpms

we know that 8psi, 27* and 100 octane will be roughly 600hp @8k rpms from a 1100cfm centri s/c..

so educate me on how 11psi @8krpms will get 700hp on 100octane..

how much AIR are those turbos required to push?

See what im getting at yet? It doesnt matter how much smaller the turbos are, because there are 2 of them, but combined they still need to flow the air, whether you are calculating it by MAF or CFM, it still needs the same air, more even..

SOOOOOO..

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by Pro-AM3

Lucrecio, what turbos on there, i dont recall seeing it mentioned

Twin Tial GT3076s. Can't find flow rating for those, but the GTX3076R is rated at 65 lb/hr. Generally speaking, each lb/hr can generate ~10 HP.

[pbonsalb]

I never thought this was an issue. The turbos would have to be really really small for two of them to flow less that a V3 Si Trim. It just seems common sense to me that if the turbos are good for at least the same 700 rwhp that the supercharger is good for, then if the turbos are making 11 psi at 4000 rpm and the supercharger is making 3 psi at 4000 rpm, the turbos are stressing the motor more in the midrange. The turbos will maintain that 11 psi all the way from 4000 to 8000, while the supercharger will be ramping up from 3 psi to 11 psi over those 4000 rpm. This is why the turbo has more power under the curve.

[BadBoostedBMWM3]

Originally Posted by AWTT335i

Its really hard to tell with these 1/2 mile races since people have different starting speeds, some people do digs, etcetera. The Fuel-it! M4 did the following:

Odd question,

Is that an app to measure 60-130mph time?