Custom Clevite Rod Bearings

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Richbot

I also wonder if it was planned obsolescence, Apple style. If the battery won't hold a charge or there's a hole in the block either way you buy the latest Iphone or the latest Mcar because fanboy

I think this is the case for every new BMW product. Nowadays, its about the latest and greatest. Not the long-term ownership experience.

I do thing M cars are a little different. M's of old were high maintenance right out of the box but would last a long time. Newer M's will last 100k with relatively low maintenance until its out of warranty...then either cost you an arm and a leg or just fall apart.

[4corners]

Every chain has a weak link. This car was awesome in 2007 when it was released, and it still is a car to own. Others are jut now catching up you could argue.

~$2500 for bearings is less than you'll pay for many things on these cars. As long as it doesn't blow up catastrophically first.

[Flea7]

subscribed

[CIFUM3]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Sometimes I wonder if the design tolerances were so tight because they designed for best case and just flat ignored the possibility that they could screw up or that their suppliers could screw up.

I also wonder if it was planned obsolescence, Apple style. If the battery won't hold a charge or there's a hole in the block either way you buy the latest Iphone or the latest Mcar because fanboy

Lmao last sentence too funny. I just got done telling my girlfriend I'm never going back to any other car

[MFL]

Will they be more "proven" than VAC? Lol.

[code7rpd]

Subscribed.

[squartus]

WPC better than VAC, since VAC is a coating and actually makes it thicker making problem worse. WPC is a treatment changing the surface structure and actually makes the bearing slightly thinner in the process.

This bearing with the proper clearance + WPC treatment would be awesome, what ill get if/when I crack my engine open again. Glad to see progress is being made to get engine parts with better clearance.

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by LSx

Agreed.

Well if these bearings become available then they'll be the best way to fix the bearing clearance because it's a drop-in solution. The other way to do it is to either get a good crank grinder to try to remove just .001" or so from the crank journals and use a standard bearing, but that's not possible many times with production cranks so it would have to be ground to .010"(.25mm).

The way we do this from scratch with our much more common race motors where aftermarket engine parts are plentiful is to torque up the mains on the block or big end of the connecting rods with the bearings we want to use in place and measure with a dial bore gauge. Then have the crank ground to the exact size needed to give us the desired clearance. If the sizing isn't perfect there's plus and minus bearings available that you can mix and match to adjust the clearance by as little as .0005" - point is that if your crank is in good condition then with these thinner bearings you now have the ability to fix the clearance without grinding the crank so it's the best solution to the problem.

Side clearance is the second part of the equation, it allows the oil to flow out of the bearing so it can be constantly replaced by fresh cool oil. If the rods are too tight to each other on the rod throw they can rub against each other instead of having a constant flow of oil separating them, that's what causes the blueing on the cheeks - friction/heat.

The notch is an imperfect solution to getting oil out of the bearing since for many removing the rods to actually adjust the side clearance may be out of budget or for some other reason not desired. The real fix is to remove the rods and grind the cheeks.

Odd thing is wondering why the hell the engineers are running them so tight, there's absolutely no upside to running a tight side clearance on rods, oil pressure is set by the clearance between the bearing and the journal, not by bottlenecking the system and not allowing the oil to escape once it's done it's job. On piston guided rod engines we'll run .060" rod side clearance and there's no effect on oil pressure, the main bearings on engines are open to the crankcase on the side and oil flows freely out, there's just absolutely no reason to risk these kind of engine failures by making these parts too tight to each other.

Absolute gold. Thank you

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I think this is the case for every new BMW product. Nowadays, its about the latest and greatest. Not the long-term ownership experience.

I do thing M cars are a little different. M's of old were high maintenance right out of the box but would last a long time. Newer M's will last 100k with relatively low maintenance until its out of warranty...then either cost you an arm and a leg or just fall apart.

Yeah I agree To be fair M cars have always been a little bit of a PITA, but more peripherally, S14's are a mother effer and it's just a 4-banger, the s3x are the same way. Probably the only "reliable" S-motor was the S50/2. And anyone who's owned an E36 knows it's no cakewalk either. But even the most stressed of that era was in the 85-90bhp/l range. Not mention S62. Hay guys got you some VANOS don't look into it or anything but it's super reliable! Then along came the S54...

They should have poached some Honda engineers before building these engines, lol

[wrecklessfool]

Originally Posted by Richbot

They should have poached some Honda engineers before building these engines, lol

Now this is funny!

[aus]

Originally Posted by Richbot

They should have poached some Honda engineers before building these engines, lol

//M just poached a Ferrari engineer and the head of //M just went to Hyundai to head their "performance cars." He probably figured he'd out of a job soon.

.

[tdott]

Hurry up and take my money!

Lol I'll be waiting for the first sign of pre-orders.

[modkrazy]

Originally Posted by MFL

Will they be more "proven" than VAC? Lol.

VAC is "proven" to not work, if that's what you mean. I don't have the thread bookmarked, but an M3 guy from another forum had VAC-treated bearings on his car that he opened up again after 25K miles (and something like 80 track days), and the coating was all burned off and it was grinding into the bearing again. So best case scenario, they briefly, very briefly, delay the inevitable. Worst case, they make tight clearance even tighter and cause the problem to happen faster.

[MFL]

Originally Posted by modkrazy

VAC is "proven" to not work, if that's what you mean. I don't have the thread bookmarked, but an M3 guy from another forum had VAC-treated bearings on his car that he opened up again after 25K miles (and something like 80 track days), and the coating was all burned off and it was grinding into the bearing again. So best case scenario, they briefly, very briefly, delay the inevitable. Worst case, they make tight clearance even tighter and cause the problem to happen faster.

They called them "proven", I questioned them on that and asked them to prove their solution. Thread was deleted. Derp.

[braheem24]

I Joined this forum to subscribe to this thread alone,

My S85 with 160K is in need of a solution.

[SSJVegita]

wow, the fact ur car has 160k is already a feat in itself lol, gj man, id prob have changed them by now if i was u

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by braheem24

I Joined this forum to subscribe to this thread alone,

My S85 with 160K is in need of a solution.

That's epic. So much for the bearing issues worldwide.

[tlrid3r]

Sorry to bring this up but I'm really happy this is been addressed and bravo for the work. I had mine replaced with wpc cause it was only option at the time and if you see my thread on it I was really due. But has any one look into main bearing (the bearing the holds the crank in place) if they are also faulty. Rod bearing and main bearing probably same spec. Main bearings may also need replacing

[LSx]

Originally Posted by tlrid3r

Sorry to bring this up but I'm really happy this is been addressed and bravo for the work. I had mine replaced with wpc cause it was only option at the time and if you see my thread on it I was really due. But has any one look into main bearing (the bearing the holds the crank in place) if they are also faulty. Rod bearing and main bearing probably same spec. Main bearings may also need replacing

My specification software says that the main bearing clearance is .020mm-.055mm which is ~.0008-.002"

For an aluminum block motor that main bearing clearance range is not an issue.

Secondly, as indicated by the detailed teardown pictures & tolerance inspection, a major component of the problem for the rod bearings is that there's practically no side clearance. Main bearings (excluding the single thrust) don't have this issue as they're completely open to the crankcase on either side so oil can freely exit the bearing.

That's assuming the engines are actually assembled to the clearance specification I have, and as you postulated, the rod bearings have basically the same specification which is too tight for a steel connecting rod in a performance application.

[SenorFunkyPants]

as indicated by the detailed teardown pictures & tolerance inspection, a major component of the problem for the rod bearings is that there's practically no side clearance.

The section on side clearance in the engine teardown on page 1 of the Wiki bearing thread which notes the shock horror of finding a side clearance issue is totally opposite to the detailed description of the same engine teardown originally completed in 2011 in the Van Dyne shop. In that write up by Regular Guy (as Pencil geek) they send off for a BMW crank and rods which they use to measure the side clearance in order to machine the out of spec Carrillo rods to the right clearance.
Also main bearing failure in S65 engines are very rare.

[Gossypiboma]

Hats off the the community and crew working on this. Ill be in for a set as soon as they are available.

[wrecklessfool]

The rod side clearance issue has been brought up by multiple, highly regarded people on this forum. Do a search around and you'll see what I mean.