End of an Era -- next gen M3 will be turbo'd

[footie]

Originally Posted by Sticky

I could not have said it better myself, there was a time when Lancia was something special. There was also a time where they dominated rally racing and were thought of as bad ass. Then again, what do I know?

That was exactly my point, the Lancia that used dual charging was the very championship rally cars I meant.

To knock different technologies just because it's different to the usually method BMW M cars use doesn't not mean they are a stupid choice. You haven't got to drive a Golf GT with the 1.4TSI engine and probably never will, but I can tell you that is it's technology, performance and economy are all very impressive. The only thing lacking was a decent vocal but then again it's not meant to be that way in a Golf.

[UdubBadger]

Originally Posted by southlight

Fixed.


Best regards, south

yeah i realized i fucked that up right after posting but i got stuck on the phone so i couldn't change it right away.

thanks

[urbo73]

Man, reading this thread you just see human psychology. Why don't we wait and SEE before passing judgment. And be flexible in your thoughts..What's with all the BMW bashing? I'm sure the next M3 will be better than the current one - no matter what engine it uses. Such has been the case with every M3, and it's not going to change. Talk about making something out of nothing!

[aus]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Man, reading this thread you just see human psychology. Why don't we wait and SEE before passing judgment. And be flexible in your thoughts..What's with all the BMW bashing? I'm sure the next M3 will be better than the current one - no matter what engine it uses. Such has been the case with every M3, and it's not going to change. Talk about making something out of nothing!

My main problem is the M-X6. That's just a WRONG direction for the Motorsport division.

[Mr D]

Originally Posted by aus

My main problem is the M-X6. That's just a WRONG direction for the Motorsport division.

BMW is in the business to make money, not deal with enthusiasts emotions or maintain a certain culture by someone's standards.

Porsche made a Cayenne Turbo, using the same turbo badge as all the others. I don't see a problem with that.

The M-series culture is a cherry on top.

[J08M3]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Man, reading this thread you just see human psychology. Why don't we wait and SEE before passing judgment. And be flexible in your thoughts..What's with all the BMW bashing? I'm sure the next M3 will be better than the current one - no matter what engine it uses. Such has been the case with every M3, and it's not going to change. Talk about making something out of nothing!

+1

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by footie

That was exactly my point, the Lancia that used dual charging was the very championship rally cars I meant.

To knock different technologies just because it's different to the usually method BMW M cars use doesn't not mean they are a stupid choice. You haven't got to drive a Golf GT with the 1.4TSI engine and probably never will, but I can tell you that is it's technology, performance and economy are all very impressive. The only thing lacking was a decent vocal but then again it's not meant to be that way in a Golf.

Footie, buddy, the Lancia that dominated rally racing in the late 80's and early 90's was the Delta Integrale. It was not twin charged, it used a Garret T3 turbo.

You might be confused with the overboost system the cars had, which was electronically valve actuated.

Twin charging is interesting on paper. However, you realize the VW system is made for economy not performance right? The supercharger shuts off after 2000 rpm and then the turbo takes over. It is not performance oriented but emissions oriented. If it was performance oriented, a supercharger working for only 2000 rpm and having a turbo is a waste. It just adds needless complexity to what will already be a beauty.

[CodeRed]

They might be going the TT route to save weight and cost..it isnt exactly cheap to construct a lite 8 cylinder engine. A TT ala Porsche might make sense with the DI.

[Voltigeur]

Originally Posted by Mr D

BMW is in the business to make money, not deal with enthusiasts emotions or maintain a certain culture by someone's standards.

The M-series culture is a cherry on top.

Absolutely. We may get emotional about marque purity but economic reality suggests BMW AG will respond to economic exigencies.

And they are WELL aware of the M-brand's iconographic aspects and that translates to a margin premium per M-car unit sold: they won't intentionally dilute that premium.

[Voltigeur]

Originally Posted by Sticky

I think we should put you in charge of BMW.

Your intelligence and command of the English language reminds me of the people in charge over at General Motors.

Good point on moving to the C63, it is not like Mercedes announced adding turbos to the 6.2 liter V8 or anything. What are you waiting for? Go get it now, they would love you over at MBworld.

Apologies in advance for my use of smileys to substitute for precise language. But if this C63 fan's post - that @Sticky is referring to - is indicative of the typical C63 driver then his lack of nuance is well-matched to that product. And I use the word "product" advisedly.

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by Voltigeur

Absolutely. We may get emotional about marque purity but economic reality suggests BMW AG will respond to economic exigencies.

And they are WELL aware of the M-brand's iconographic aspects and that translates to a margin premium per M-car unit sold: they won't intentionally dilute that premium.

Man, you DO sound like a journalist Next you should talk about the 6MT shifter and say stuff like - "short throws into easily found gates", etc.

[Voltigeur]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Man, you DO sound like a journalist Next you should talk about the 6MT shifter and say stuff like - "short throws into easily found gates", etc.

In my dreams! (being a journo writing for evo or CAR).

But don't journalists always say something like (in regards to Bimmers' manual transmissions): "the [6MT's] throws are unnecessarily elongated, but once you become familiar with its notchy changes you can row through the gears with surprising alacrity".

[footie]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Footie, buddy, the Lancia that dominated rally racing in the late 80's and early 90's was the Delta Integrale. It was not twin charged, it used a Garret T3 turbo.

You might be confused with the overboost system the cars had, which was electronically valve actuated.

Twin charging is interesting on paper. However, you realize the VW system is made for economy not performance right? The supercharger shuts off after 2000 rpm and then the turbo takes over. It is not performance oriented but emissions oriented. If it was performance oriented, a supercharger working for only 2000 rpm and having a turbo is a waste. It just adds needless complexity to what will already be a beauty.

Sticky,

I am seldom wrong but when I am I will admit it.

Sorry mate but it ain't going to happen this time. As I said I know my stuff when it comes to cars and especially in a sport so dear to my heart.

Lancia Delta S4 Group B

You need to understand the theory behind dual charging, one deals with the low part of the rev range while the other deals with the high part of the rev range and gives the power. In a single turbo setup, to produce big power figures requires a large turbo to max the air flow but with this design you get lag, quite a lot. So dual charging is the ideal solution, that is where a small turbo works the low revs (small turbine = quicker spooling and less lag) and a larger turbo that starts spooling before the smaller one hands over the reigns thus zero lag and lots of power everywhere. This system is used in the 335d but not the 335i which uses twin turbo technology, that is two turbos working together, this is the reason why they are very small and only boost the power and torque by a small amount.

The dual charging that VW adopted works really well because the supercharger works instantly (even quicker than a small turbo) and because of it's size uses next to no power to run. Yes VW chose economy over power with this engine but the technology and design works for a power application just as well.

[Robin_NL]

Well done footie. The gr B Delta S4 had a Volumex compressor(low rpm) and a turbo(higher rpm) , and a 1800cc 4 cylinder engine....

In my puberty years(15/16 years old lol) I watched the whole group B era on television in the mid '80s. I was a big fan (first) of the Audi Quattro, but became a big Pug(205Turbo 16/E2) and Lancia S4 Fan but also the Metro 6R4 and the great Ford RS 200!
Ari Vatanen, Timo Salonen, Henri Toivonen(RIP), Markku Alén, Hannu Mikkola, Stig Blomqvist, Michelle Mouton(f), Massimo Biasion, Walter Rörhl(yes the one and only), Juh Kankkunnen and more are the heroes of an era before Colin McRae(RIP) and Richard Burns(RIP, I love playing the RBR rally sim) and now Solberg, Grönholm, Loeb, Galli and many others.

Those cars were faster than fast. I think it was in '85 or '86 that a Peugeot 205 T16 driven bij Kankkunen or Salonen(I don't recall) drove a rallystage in Portugal, and one part of that stage was the short part of the famous Grand Prix track at Estoril or something like that. The speeds they achieved with that small Peugeot 205 with 530BHP @ 900kgs (4wd) were enough to place them at position 14 at the starting grid for FORMULA 1 in that year. Can you imagine that?

OK, here an example of contempory rallying, Gigi Galli in his Mitsu EVO, at 47 seconds(EVO V), one of the greatest handbrake turns/flicks ever in history.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by footie

Sticky,

I am seldom wrong but when I am I will admit it.

Sorry mate but it ain't going to happen this time. As I said I know my stuff when it comes to cars and especially in a sport so dear to my heart.

Lancia Delta S4 Group B

You need to understand the theory behind dual charging, one deals with the low part of the rev range while the other deals with the high part of the rev range and gives the power. In a single turbo setup, to produce big power figures requires a large turbo to max the air flow but with this design you get lag, quite a lot. So dual charging is the ideal solution, that is where a small turbo works the low revs (small turbine = quicker spooling and less lag) and a larger turbo that starts spooling before the smaller one hands over the reigns thus zero lag and lots of power everywhere. This system is used in the 335d but not the 335i which uses twin turbo technology, that is two turbos working together, this is the reason why they are very small and only boost the power and torque by a small amount.

The dual charging that VW adopted works really well because the supercharger works instantly (even quicker than a small turbo) and because of it's size uses next to no power to run. Yes VW chose economy over power with this engine but the technology and design works for a power application just as well.

Footie, did you miss where I specifically mentioned the Delta Integrale? Group B rally cars WERE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND THE CLASS WAS DISBANDED! Lancia never dominated that class, they lost, you confused the cars.

You realize the Group B class was discontinued don't you? The reason being people kept killing themselves in those overpowered freak cars. The class was disbanded in 1986, BEFORE Lancia went on its winning streak starting in 1987 using the Integrale which WAS NOT TWIN CHARGED.

Nice try though Footie..

Oh, and with the turbos, what you are referring to is sequential turbos, which is not twin charged by the definition you are using which is two separate power adders. It is still a twin turbo setup, and your idea still is stupid on an M car, but I still love you.

Oh, and Footie, the Delta S4 was never the car that brought Lancia its Manufacturers championships, it was a failure and a road going production model is not what it is based on. Still, nice try. Lancia themselves tried to replace it with the ECV but the class was scrapped and the Integrale with its turbo engine went on to dominate rally racing with a car actually based on a production model.

[Robin_NL]

Sticky. Footie is right. Admit it please. The Delta S4 had a Volumex COMPRESSOR AND A TURBOCHARGER working 'together'way back in 1986.

[Robin_NL]

Anyway, the Delta S4 story, very interesting. I don't know for sure but the predecessor037 had only a Volomex charger as I recall(???)
http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/lancia_S4.htm

The S4 engine, displacing 1759 cc, is based on proven Abarth hardware and mounted longitudinally behind the front seats. In the 'production' cars its

KKK turbocharger and Abarth Volumex supercharger boost output to a maximum of 250 bhp at 6750rpm and 2141bft of torque. That sounds a lot from less than 1.8 litres, but the similar-sized motor of the Lancia-Martini rally cars was persuaded to yield a reliable 470 bhp at 8000 revs, plus more than 333 Ib ft of torque.

The aim of using both a turbo unit and supercharging was to overcome the lazy low-speed response of the turbo. The supercharger looks after the provision of extra punch below about 3500 revs, and the turbocharger supplies an increasing amount of boost at higher rpm.


The competition S4 used exactly the same twin intercooler principles, but the transition from supercharging to turbocharging took place at higher engine speeds, between 5000 and 6000 revs. Developing the engine's mechanically driven supercharger and the exhaust-impelled turbo to the point where power and torque delivery were harmonious was a complex challenge. Fiat-Lancia-Abarth engineers eventually met it successfully, but as yet nobody else has repeated the experiment...

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

Sticky. Footie is right. Admit it please. The Delta S4 had a Volumex COMPRESSOR AND A TURBOCHARGER working 'together'way back in 1986.

You don't get it, he is wrong.

"That was exactly my point, the Lancia that used dual charging was the very championship rally cars I meant."

The car he actually meant that was the championship Lancia that dominated rally racing was the Delta Integrale. The Delta S4, was not dual charged by design. They added a turbo later to the supercharged motor to remain competitive because they were getting destroyed. It was not a function of by design, it was the only solution that allowed them to remain competitive within the rules.

Footie: "Well Lancia found great success with such a setup". No, they did not find great success, they did not win a Group B championship. The car in question also was a failure and replaced. It was also used only in Group B, not based on a production car. They did homologate 200 S4 Stradales so they could compete after the fact, but these were not the same thing as the rally car obviously.

Second of all, I never said Lancia never had a rally car with a turbo and a supercharger. Nissan also made an actual production car with a turbo and supercharger, look into that if you want.

I wish people knew WTF they were talking about...

[Robin_NL]

[southlight]

+1 and


Best regards, south

[Robin_NL]

sorry Nachbar.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Footie, did you miss where I specifically mentioned the Delta Integrale? Group B rally cars WERE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND THE CLASS WAS DISBANDED! Lancia never dominated that class, they lost, you confused the cars.

You realize the Group B class was discontinued don't you? The reason being people kept killing themselves in those overpowered freak cars. The class was disbanded in 1986, BEFORE Lancia went on its winning streak starting in 1987 using the Integrale which WAS NOT TWIN CHARGED.

Nice try though Footie..

I think you misunderstood my original statement about Lancia, their rally cars and the technology. My point was that Lancia were a very well regarded engineering company who seen promise in the dual charging technology. They used supercharging in the Lancia 037 and replaced this with the technology above in the Delta S4 which I might add won the title in 1986 but due to scrutineering irregularities in the San Remo Rally it lost those points and the title was handed to Markku Alen in the Peugeot.

P.S.

I was there during one of the deaths in question so I know very well why they were banned.

Originally Posted by Sticky

Oh, and with the turbos, what you are referring to is sequential turbos, which is not twin charged by the definition you are using which is two separate power adders. It is still a twin turbo setup, and your idea still is stupid on an M car, but I still love you.

Oh, and Footie, the Delta S4 was never the car that brought Lancia its Manufacturers championships, it was a failure and a road going production model is not what it is based on. Still, nice try. Lancia themselves tried to replace it with the ECV but the class was scrapped and the Integrale with its turbo engine went on to dominate rally racing with a car actually based on a production model.

Sequential turbocharging is used in the 335d not the 335i which is twin turboed (each turbo used together at the same time, 1 turbo per 3 cylinders as in the 335i). But if I am wrong than I will admit it, maybe south can tell if I am correct or not.

Hopefully this pissing contest can be concluded and the discussion of possible M3 engines can get back on track.