BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > M3 vs....
 
EXXEL Distributions
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      03-27-2020, 03:37 PM   #23
RedScytheM3
Science stuff and stuff
RedScytheM3's Avatar
United_States
395
Rep
414
Posts

Drives: 2008 E92 ///M3
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Houston

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jd501 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by neilum View Post

anyway, I don't like the feel of new BMW's, plus not a fan of the looks of the M2 or 2 series so my default answer given this choice is a no brainer.
I was very much in the same camp ... I preferred the E46 M3 (or a F06 M6) over the M2 as a second car for the E92, until I saw this one on the forums. Definitely has me considering changing my mind (still give the edge to a nice E46 CSL clone, but it's close).
I would definitely rather have this than my e92
Appreciate 2
AC/DC380.50
M2 GT65.50
      03-27-2020, 04:31 PM   #24
AC/DC
NooB
381
Rep
383
Posts

Drives: M
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: M

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jd501 View Post
I was very much in the same camp ... I preferred the E46 M3 (or a F06 M6) over the M2 as a second car for the E92, until I saw this one on the forums. Definitely has me considering changing my mind (still give the edge to a nice E46 CSL clone, but it's close).
I love the M2, specifically this one, at least from what I can see. Probably the only thing I'd trade my E90 for.
Appreciate 1
M2 GT65.50
      03-27-2020, 04:33 PM   #25
SAMM3Y
Colonel
SAMM3Y's Avatar
3085
Rep
2,747
Posts

Drives: 2008 m3
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilum View Post
I really don't get all of the lack of torque comments on these forums. The S65 is very linear, and pulls fine down low.

I've owned a FBO F80 before this so that's my frame of reference. I really never once thought my DCT E90 was lacking in any way, in fact sometimes it surprises me how well it pulls everywhere.

I've also owned an S2000 so I get what people mean when they talk about torque, now that car needed to be revved up. The S65? I don't agree at all in terms of it being a problem or a notable "flaw"

anyway, I don't like the feel of new BMW's, plus not a fan of the looks of the M2 or 2 series so my default answer given this choice is a no brainer.

If you're are going to get an E90 I agree set aside 3-5K for issues noted above to be addressed or fixed, get new plugs no matter what (these motors are very sensitive to even plugs that are 15K miles old) and get any exhaust that you like and enjoy. It's a very raw machine and IMO the last of the classic BMW's that drive a certain way. The new BMW's feel like vanilla Ice cream...
Lack of torque talk comes from 6mt drivers, you have to thrash the car through 1st/2nd gear on a 6mt to go anywhere. Half throttle shifting at 5500rpm you can't keep up with traffic off the light. When you shift to third that's when the car comes to life! I've never driven a DCT M3 but can imagine it's better around town.
__________________
9ers
Appreciate 2
M2 GT65.50
Ajolives901.00
      03-27-2020, 07:57 PM   #26
neilum
Captain
897
Rep
753
Posts

Drives: 718 GT4
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Bergen County NJ

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jd501 View Post
I was very much in the same camp ... I preferred the E46 M3 (or a F06 M6) over the M2 as a second car for the E92, until I saw this one on the forums. Definitely has me considering changing my mind (still give the edge to a nice E46 CSL clone, but it's close).
That black car is sick! OP's white one is too, I guess I'm just turned off by my F80 that I tried so hard to like.
Appreciate 1
M2 GT65.50
      03-27-2020, 08:19 PM   #27
neilum
Captain
897
Rep
753
Posts

Drives: 718 GT4
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Bergen County NJ

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAMM3Y View Post
Lack of torque talk comes from 6mt drivers, you have to thrash the car through 1st/2nd gear on a 6mt to go anywhere. Half throttle shifting at 5500rpm you can't keep up with traffic off the light. When you shift to third that's when the car comes to life! I've never driven a DCT M3 but can imagine it's better around town.
I get the hyperbole but sorry but that's what I am talking about. I think it's just perception.

IF you want to get really technical and scientific the reality is the S65 driven in this manner would easily be faster than most normal or average acceleration cars driven in this manner. Most cars do not have 295 ft lbs @ 3900 RPM, that only weigh 3600 lbs, not accounting for very aggressive gearing that multiplies tq at the wheels.

The torque at the wheels, average HP for the cars weight and forward G forces in this car would be higher/faster than most ICE cars on road below 5500 RPM let alone what happens after that.

It's just a deceptive power delivery.

I'm not trying to argue but the truth and people's comments don't align very well when it comes to this topic.
Appreciate 1
M2 GT65.50
      03-27-2020, 09:02 PM   #28
SAMM3Y
Colonel
SAMM3Y's Avatar
3085
Rep
2,747
Posts

Drives: 2008 m3
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (2)

It's not perception, it's a reality l live every time I drive my car. Most modern day turbo commuter cars are geared/tuned for around town and upto freeway speeds which is the opposite of an m3, mix varying non shifting transmissions and they don't need a ton of torque to do alright off the line at a traffic light. I mean don't get me wrong I can rev the car right catch the clutch perfectly and take off like a rocket but when your car has a custom exhaust it makes you look like an asshole. It doesn't help that everybody that sees as m car wants to test you so you feel like your perpetually racing everyone. You can argue the numbers all you want, the reality is it's missing something. Again this is only spoken as a 6mt driver, so shift times come into play. my car is heavily modified too including a shorter gear set. It's the reality of a short stroke small displacement v8 but also the beauty, quick revs and rev happy I love it don't get me wrong.
__________________
9ers
Appreciate 1
M2 GT65.50
      03-27-2020, 09:28 PM   #29
Eja144
Second Lieutenant
Eja144's Avatar
United_States
303
Rep
298
Posts

Drives: 2008 E90 M3
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Long Island, NY

iTrader: (0)

First and second at half throttle, no power-mode can feel a bit sluggish, but I definitely don't have to shift at 5500 to keep up with traffic off the line. I usually keep the revs between 2800 and 3800 for normal, around town driving and never feel like I'm lagging behind traffic. If I want to rocket around slow moving traffic I'll just let the revs climb to 4k in second or third and punch it, then shift around 6 so I don't get arrested, lol.
Appreciate 1
M2 GT65.50
      04-04-2020, 09:56 PM   #30
Rajmun340
Major
Rajmun340's Avatar
413
Rep
1,178
Posts

Drives: 2013 E92 M3 ZCP factory order
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: NC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAMM3Y View Post
It's not perception, it's a reality l live every time I drive my car. Most modern day turbo commuter cars are geared/tuned for around town and upto freeway speeds which is the opposite of an m3, mix varying non shifting transmissions and they don't need a ton of torque to do alright off the line at a traffic light. I mean don't get me wrong I can rev the car right catch the clutch perfectly and take off like a rocket but when your car has a custom exhaust it makes you look like an asshole. It doesn't help that everybody that sees as m car wants to test you so you feel like your perpetually racing everyone. You can argue the numbers all you want, the reality is it's missing something. Again this is only spoken as a 6mt driver, so shift times come into play. my car is heavily modified too including a shorter gear set. It's the reality of a short stroke small displacement v8 but also the beauty, quick revs and rev happy I love it don't get me wrong.
Not true, you are generalizing your own inabilities as a 6MT driver. I have a totally opposite experience with my 6MT M3. When you say you have to "thrash" 1st and 2nd gear on a 6MT to get going that tells me you have never mastered it. Let me ask you, which group are you in : A) cannot heel and toe shift at all B) can heel and toe "when i get it right sometimes" C) can heel and toe reasonably well 80% of times D) Can heel and toe ALL THE TIME, in ALL driving scenarios from a subtle refined civilized traffic driving around town heel and toe that only an expert passenger will notice to break neck driving around the track heel and toe. All 100% perfect rev matching ?? Based on what you said, you are A or B. I am D. I teach advanced driving classes. Bottom line 6MT is for people who are capable to learn more. 6MT is a superb experience for those who master it unfortunately very few do. Most get stuck between B and C. It's the same for any skill, a high end tennis racket or golf club do not replace skill. But you will find plenty of unskilled sportsmen who complain about their gear when their skill does not cut it. The 6MT gearing on the M3 is more aggressive than the DCT, that makes it a lot of fun or frustration depending on the driver.
Appreciate 0
      04-04-2020, 10:19 PM   #31
SAMM3Y
Colonel
SAMM3Y's Avatar
3085
Rep
2,747
Posts

Drives: 2008 m3
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (2)

😂... are you off your fucking meds?!
__________________
9ers
Appreciate 3
velociti181.50
Not Sure212.50
m3jala543.50
      04-05-2020, 09:52 AM   #32
SoCalRPM
Captain
SoCalRPM's Avatar
886
Rep
942
Posts

Drives: e92 M3
Join Date: May 2017
Location: LA

iTrader: (0)

I've had my e92 for a few years now. Bought it with mid 50k mileage. Excellent condition. Took me about a dozen cars (and 6-12 months of my time) to find one in the right condition with the right specs.

Ive spent about 5k in preventative/general maintenance. Not including consumables and oil changes, etc. But I feel pretty confident in this car being reliable now - as much as anyone can expect anyway.

If you're patient, you'll find the right car. Good luck with your search.
Appreciate 1
M2 GT65.50
      04-05-2020, 02:55 PM   #33
M3R1
Colonel
2146
Rep
2,335
Posts

Drives: ///M2cs
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: NJ

iTrader: (5)

Like most have said, do yourself a favor and drive an E9x before you sell your M2C. Before i bought my current car, I had cars with more power. I was sure I wanted a E92, however after driving one I wasn't so sure. The driving experience was as awesome, but it was lacking the power I was used to. I ultimately found a very low mile supercharged car in perfect condition so my decision was easy.

Keep your car, it is very nice indeed! If you are a true "car guy" any car you love you will want to keep it nice.
__________________
BSM ///M2cs, 6spd
Appreciate 2
CSBM52695.50
M2 GT65.50
      04-06-2020, 07:54 AM   #34
New2Roundel
Captain
465
Rep
804
Posts

Drives: Some fun stuff
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Philly, PA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by neilum View Post
I get the hyperbole but sorry but that's what I am talking about. I think it's just perception.

IF you want to get really technical and scientific the reality is the S65 driven in this manner would easily be faster than most normal or average acceleration cars driven in this manner. Most cars do not have 295 ft lbs @ 3900 RPM, that only weigh 3600 lbs, not accounting for very aggressive gearing that multiplies tq at the wheels.

The torque at the wheels, average HP for the cars weight and forward G forces in this car would be higher/faster than most ICE cars on road below 5500 RPM let alone what happens after that.
I agree with this 100%. I've never had a situation in normal driving where I had to go above 4k rpms to keep up with traffic off the line. And if I want to get ahead of traffic, I don't need to go much over 5k rpms. And I live in the philadelphia area, which is known to have hyperaggressive drivers. Another example here is our beater car, a 2011 Hyundai Tucson. It has 178hp and about as much torque. I have no problem keeping up with traffic when shifts occur at 3500 rpms for example. Keep in mind the 0-60 of the Hyundai is about 9.5 seconds, so it's dirt slow even at its quickest.
Appreciate 1
M2 GT65.50
      04-06-2020, 12:24 PM   #35
aus
Major General
United_States
890
Rep
9,031
Posts

Drives: Odysse
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Seal Beach, CA

iTrader: (10)

For daily driving, the M2c is probably better.
If you're going to track it, get the E9x. That motor will always put a smile on your face.
And sounds 1,000x better.
.
__________________
Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
Appreciate 1
M2 GT65.50
      04-06-2020, 08:31 PM   #36
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
11421
Rep
10,296
Posts

Drives: E90M/E92M/M4GTS/M4GT4/X5M
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajmun340 View Post
It's the same for any skill, a high end tennis racket or golf club do not replace skill. But you will find plenty of unskilled sportsmen who complain about their gear when their skill does not cut it..
For proof, just go to any track day, you'll find lots of people who could beat the world record if only they had the right car, the right tires, the right alignment, the right helmet, the right battery, etc etc etc
Appreciate 1
M2 GT65.50
      04-07-2020, 12:31 PM   #37
OG Shark
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
OG Shark's Avatar
4656
Rep
2,518
Posts


Drives: Angry
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Spring Branch, TX

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
For daily driving, the M2c is probably better.
If you're going to track it, get the E9x. That motor will always put a smile on your face.
And sounds 1,000x better.
.
I dunno - I'm finding the E90 M3 to be just about the perfect DD (for me). Very comfortable as a cruiser (love the seats), rides great - and with an upgraded sound system (intake, exhaust) an instant smile is just a bit of throttle away. Four doors are awesome if you have kiddos too. I will note that I don't care much about having the latest tech or stuff like that - all I really care about is the car having bluetooth.

I'm basing this off my M2 which is an OG with the N55 - so a comp might be a different animal. I personally don't think the S55 would make the difference for me though as far as being a daily driver. They are awesome cars though & I love mine for what it is - but I don't think it can touch the E90 M3 as a DD. M2's can also be an absolute blast on the track too - but oh revving that S65 out just stirs the soul...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
For proof, just go to any track day, you'll find lots of people who could beat the world record if only they had the right car, the right tires, the right alignment, the right helmet, the right battery, etc etc etc
Appreciate 2
SYT_Shadow11421.00
M2 GT65.50
      04-12-2020, 10:23 PM   #38
Montaver
Lieutenant Colonel
Montaver's Avatar
No_Country
2067
Rep
1,630
Posts

Drives: 718 GT4 & M340i LCI
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

I plan to write a full review at some point, but for comparison I did about 15K miles and 20 track days in my E90 M3, I have around 3K on the M2C. Ultimately it depends what your looking for in a car because whilst they are both very fun to drive they get there in quite different ways. I'll just stick to dynamics for now..

The chassis in the M2C feels light years ahead. It feels stiff and solid, like you are driving a 'square' almost as the wheelbase is so short and the front track so wide. It turns in way more keenly than the M3 and feels like a much lighter car. The back end in particular feels like it has no slop whatsoever, pedal position translates into instant movement. The downside is the steering is far less communicative, it took me longer than I expected to approach the limit in the M2C due to the lack of front end feel. However once you get dialled into it its actually very easy to hustle along as its accurate and the rack is ultra responsive.

The brakes there is no contest, the M2C brakes feel better than the e9x brakes in every conceivable way.

I really enjoy the ferocity of the S55, it's satisfying to rev out and is very linear. Only the slightest hint of lag and the turbos don't really kick in properly until 2.6K revs or thereabouts. What I miss is the lovely S65 induction warble between 3-4K RPM in the M3. After about 4.5K RPM the S55 is very loud, mainly as the M2C has no sound deadening.

Personally I would only make the move if you want a more long legged, GT feeling car. The M3 feels more 'natural' and less immediate than the M2C which may be what you are looking for. Stock for stock I would take the M2C. Your M2C has all the right mod's as well...

However If your picking up a nice E9x and dropping $20k on mods to sharpen the driving experience that may be a different story, but keep in mind the grass is always greener. I spent a year looking at M2C's, then I got one and now I look at GT3's... there's a lot to be said for enjoying what you have
Appreciate 3
M2 GT65.50
m3jala543.50
Bartledoo2690.00
      04-12-2020, 11:20 PM   #39
Redd
Brigadier General
3853
Rep
4,133
Posts

Drives: 2010 BMW E92 M3 Dakar Edition
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Malaysia

iTrader: (0)

I wonder how an M2C would compare against E9x M3 with front monoballs, and rear subframe bushings. I feel these two relatively simple mods really help sharpen up the E9x M3 and driving experience.
Appreciate 1
M2 GT65.50
      04-13-2020, 07:46 AM   #40
W///
Lieutenant General
W///'s Avatar
7436
Rep
12,293
Posts

Drives: F82GTS, E36/E92M3, Z4M
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SC

iTrader: (13)

Quote:
Originally Posted by New2Roundel View Post
I agree with this 100%. I've never had a situation in normal driving where I had to go above 4k rpms to keep up with traffic off the line. And if I want to get ahead of traffic, I don't need to go much over 5k rpms. And I live in the philadelphia area, which is known to have hyperaggressive drivers. Another example here is our beater car, a 2011 Hyundai Tucson. It has 178hp and about as much torque. I have no problem keeping up with traffic when shifts occur at 3500 rpms for example. Keep in mind the 0-60 of the Hyundai is about 9.5 seconds, so it's dirt slow even at its quickest.
Couldn't agree more. I've driven everything from MINI's up to Ferrari's and at no point have I ever felt like the S65 is a gutless engine. Mine is a 6MT with a catless Stage 2 tune and I think it's more than fast enough even under 5500 RPM's. What are we comparing to? These new turbocharged cars and electric cars? If we're talking about just US speed limits, this car has the ability to throw you right in jail IMO. Just to prove a point, my commute to work is 8 miles, and during the winter, we all know the car takes a damn eternity for the oil to warm up. I'm religious about watching my oil temp (at 93k miles on original rod bearings) so I only get to go through the whole rev range the last 2 miles of my commute. Never complained once.

I have no problems admitting that this car couldn't keep up in some situations with even cars like an M340i, but I think it's silly to say the car can't keep up with regular traffic. For me personally, the S65 is such a sweet spot when it comes to being able to enjoy on the streets vs say a 992 Turbo that can only be enjoyed at full throttle for 1.5 seconds at a time.

P.S It could just be that I also have a bone stock engine US S52 E36 M3 with a 5MT. And even I find that "adequate". Not like going full throttle merging on the highway and still going the speed limit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
I plan to write a full review at some point, but for comparison I did about 15K miles and 20 track days in my E90 M3, I have around 3K on the M2C. Ultimately it depends what your looking for in a car because whilst they are both very fun to drive they get there in quite different ways. I'll just stick to dynamics for now..

The chassis in the M2C feels light years ahead. It feels stiff and solid, like you are driving a 'square' almost as the wheelbase is so short and the front track so wide. It turns in way more keenly than the M3 and feels like a much lighter car. The back end in particular feels like it has no slop whatsoever, pedal position translates into instant movement. The downside is the steering is far less communicative, it took me longer than I expected to approach the limit in the M2C due to the lack of front end feel. However once you get dialled into it its actually very easy to hustle along as its accurate and the rack is ultra responsive.

The brakes there is no contest, the M2C brakes feel better than the e9x brakes in every conceivable way.

I really enjoy the ferocity of the S55, it's satisfying to rev out and is very linear. Only the slightest hint of lag and the turbos don't really kick in properly until 2.6K revs or thereabouts. What I miss is the lovely S65 induction warble between 3-4K RPM in the M3. After about 4.5K RPM the S55 is very loud, mainly as the M2C has no sound deadening.

Personally I would only make the move if you want a more long legged, GT feeling car. The M3 feels more 'natural' and less immediate than the M2C which may be what you are looking for. Stock for stock I would take the M2C. Your M2C has all the right mod's as well...

However If your picking up a nice E9x and dropping $20k on mods to sharpen the driving experience that may be a different story, but keep in mind the grass is always greener. I spent a year looking at M2C's, then I got one and now I look at GT3's... there's a lot to be said for enjoying what you have
Yep, pretty much 100% agree with you there. Personally, I couldn't part with my E92 M3 for an M2C because I know I'd miss the engine and I've had the car for almost a decade. My only option would be to add an M2C.

I think it's by far one of the best bargains on the market right now. I can't think of too many cars where I'd consider buying new since I'm more of a buy used kind of a guy. The M2C truly is a weapon and M at their very best.
__________________
Current:
16 F82 M4 GTS, Black Sapphire/Black, DCT
08 E92 M3, Sparkling Graphite/Bamboo Beige, 6MT
07 E85 Z4M Roadster, Alpine White/Red, 6MT
99 E36 M3, Techno Violet/Dove Grey, 6MT
Appreciate 1
Montaver2066.50
      04-13-2020, 11:54 AM   #41
akkando
Major General
akkando's Avatar
5860
Rep
6,631
Posts

Drives: 17 M2 DCT LBB,11 e90 M3 ZCP IB
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Bay Area

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redd View Post
I wonder how an M2C would compare against E9x M3 with front monoballs, and rear subframe bushings. I feel these two relatively simple mods really help sharpen up the E9x M3 and driving experience.
my e90 m3 has Bimmerworld Precision Front Upper Control Arm Bearing Kit, stiffer purple diff bushings, and solid subframe bushings. It still doesn't compare to the M2 (n55). I think I need coilovers to get close.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:15 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST