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10-14-2009, 04:41 AM | #133 |
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The thing with M-M is that you'll spend more on a lawyer than you would on repairing the car.
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10-14-2009, 05:31 AM | #134 | |
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And to make things sweeter, the dealer and BMW Asia dumped the car back to me and told me everything is fine. If everything is fine, why did they have to void the warranty? Obviously its not but they choose to lie to me and then void the warranty. If they have been clean about what is exactly wrong with the car but cant cover the engine warranty, I would not have been this pissed. Imagine if you went in for a normal service with no problems with your car and they just send you a letter telling you that your warranty is void just because you had a tune if they had find out. Sure the scenario is different only because my dealer / BMW Asia lied to me and there is a problem with my car. Now thats why I am pissed. They did not talk to me nor discussed ANYTHING. They portrayed that "Everything is working great but we have to void your warranty. CYA!" I am aware that this is my doing and I accept the consequences. But when you have been lied blatantly by BOTH the dealer and BMW Asia, something is wrong with the way they are treating the customer. I could not care less right now with the warranty of the engine being void but I do care about my drivetrain warranty. Why? Simple. I dont have any problems with it now at all but if I am gonna have something wrong with it down the road, its gonna be a problem. Moreover, my dealer has fucked the DCT oil by changing the wrong fluid so there might be a possibility of it fucking up along the way. I am MORE worried for this than even the engine. With the engine, I already have made plans to rebuild it with new internals not just fixing it. I want to know this rebuilt engine will be better than what I have now.
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10-14-2009, 05:34 AM | #135 |
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Unfortunately we do not have that act to fall on here and getting legally involved in this kinda stuff, its hard to prove even 50%. As much as you can be sure it was nothing to do with what you did. So its pretty pointless. Those money spent on lawyers can get me some nice kickass brakes and some serious suspension. I am thinking more of mod parts than lawyer fees right now given the scenario.
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10-14-2009, 05:49 AM | #136 | |
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Having said that, this is NOT the case here. His chip affected engine output. Enough to cause a valve problem? Maybe, maybe not. Them taking away the tranny warranty is a bit much but I can see their point. More engine power means more stress on the tranny as well. |
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10-14-2009, 06:14 AM | #137 | |
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Yes taking away the warranty is definitely over the top even though there is more stress on the tranny but we have 200nm buffer btw engine output and gearbox. No chip tune can even give you enough to break even half of that threshold. TO top that, the dealer has screwed the tranny once due to their negligence and changed the wrong liquid. I found out abt it and declined to accept the car. If I had accepted the car, FOR SURE, a new tranny will be in my car now. So i saved BMW some money too. No reciprocity to at least save the tranny's warranty?
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10-14-2009, 10:28 AM | #138 | |
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And just because the dealer has the burden to prove something doesn't mean you don't have to take them to court (or worse yet, to arbitration), to get them to do it.
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10-14-2009, 10:35 AM | #139 | |
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10-14-2009, 01:21 PM | #140 |
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Man this thread is going to lead to tons of "If I install X do I void my warranty" questions. Can we formulate an offical m3post answer like:
"If you have to ask, you're not prepared to install it"
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10-14-2009, 02:44 PM | #141 | |
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Title 15 Chapter 50 § 2304. Federal minimum standards for warranties (a) Remedies under written warranty; duration of implied warranty; exclusion or limitation on consequential damages for breach of written or implied warranty; election of refund or replacement In order for a warrantor warranting a consumer product by means of a written warranty to meet the Federal minimum standards for warranty— (1) such warrantor must as a minimum remedy such consumer product within a reasonable time and without charge, in the case of a defect, malfunction, or failure to conform with such written warranty; (2) notwithstanding section 2308 (b) of this title, such warrantor may not impose any limitation on the duration of any implied warranty on the product; (3) such warrantor may not exclude or limit consequential damages for breach of any written or implied warranty on such product, unless such exclusion or limitation conspicuously appears on the face of the warranty; and (4) if the product (or a component part thereof) contains a defect or malfunction after a reasonable number of attempts by the warrantor to remedy defects or malfunctions in such product, such warrantor must permit the consumer to elect either a refund for, or replacement without charge of, such product or part (as the case may be). The Commission may by rule specify for purposes of this paragraph, what constitutes a reasonable number of attempts to remedy particular kinds of defects or malfunctions under different circumstances. If the warrantor replaces a component part of a consumer product, such replacement shall include installing the part in the product without charge. (b) Under a limited warranty that provides only for replacement of defective parts and no portion of labor charges. (c) No warrantor may condition the continued validity of a warranty on the use of only authorized repair service and/or authorized replacement parts for non-warranty service and maintenance nor does it preclude the warrantor from denying liability where the warrantor can demonstrate that the defect or damage was so caused. See the bolded section. BMW could say that a slight over rev caused the problem. They know exactly how high the engine was revved but as you can see they have to demonstrate that the damage was caused by the non-warranty service/maintenance (the ECU work) and not just say "we think so." |
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10-14-2009, 03:54 PM | #143 | |
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They don't care either though, my emails to germany went unanswered |
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10-14-2009, 04:37 PM | #144 |
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No warrantor may condition the continued validity of a warranty on the use of only authorized repair service and/or authorized replacement parts for non-warranty service and maintenance nor does it preclude the warrantor from denying liability where the warrantor can demonstrate that the defect or damage was so caused.
This clause is vague, as is most legislative language, which is why we have such an active courts system and why we're still fighting about the meaning of the U.S. Constitution in the Supreme Court. It does not state that the warrantor must prove beyond all reasonable scientific doubt that an aftermarket ECU reprogram caused a bent valve in YOUR particular engine. That would be impossible. All the manufacturer must demonstrate is that the ECU modification changed the performance parameters of the engine from the stock configuration, and that could have led to more wear, and ultimately a higher likelihood of failure in the type of engine in question. They have more than ample data to show given all their performance testing. In that regard, the tuners help make the case for the manufacturer in their claims of higher HP and torque, and that's all a manufacturer needs to win a case against you under M-M, involving an engine mod. Moreover, it is against U.S. law to modify engine parameters because of EPA emissions certification regulations, and 99% of judges would bang the gavel and tell you to go home because you illegally modified your engine. M-M was passed into law years ago because certain manufacturers were trying to deny warranty claims for the use of non-factory aftermarket parts such as mufflers and air cleaners. It was designed to prevent manufacturers from having a monopoly on repairs and parts sales.
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10-14-2009, 05:10 PM | #145 | ||
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2. How does the quoted provision mean the dealer, as opposed to the consumer, has to take anything to court? Based on that provision, the dealer has the burden of proof at trial, not when the car is up on the rack in the work bay. 3. How does an ECU tune qualify as service or replacement parts under the quoted provision? It pisses me off when people spout off about the Magnuson-Moss Act like it's the holy grail of get-out-of-jail-free cards. Anytime someone posts about warranty issues, the knee-jerk one-line M-M responses are inevitable and completely unhelpful. Is it something that you can remind your dealer of when they're giving you grief about something? Of course. Often the threat of litigation is more powerful than an actual lawsuit. Just hope you never actually have to rely on the M-M act in court.
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10-15-2009, 04:12 AM | #146 |
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You don't NEED a lawyer. You can get one, but techincally even soneone on trial for murder doesn't need a lawyer.
Who said it HAS to go to court? In another section of the MMA Congress said that anyone that provides a warranty must also provide a means of mediation so not every dispute goes to court. How doesn't it? You can't replace something unless it's broken? No one said it was the holy grail of anything and I don't believe it applies in this case. i was saying that dealers blindly disallowing warranty coverage for ANY aftermarket part is wrong. On another note, did anyone here ever own an E46? Ever notice the sticker in the upper left of the windshield that said using a cell phone in the car without a permanently installed car kit would void the warranty on the entire electrical system? I've been to dealers that wanted to deny warranty coverage on a faulty front wheel bearing because the car didn't have OEm wheels. The wheels were OEM but from the parts catalog and approved by use on that model by the manufacturer but the dealer only knew it wasn't what was on the car when it was sold. That, and protecting companies that make perfectly acceptable aftermarket parts and the people that buy those parts, is the reason the MMA exists. PG - I would not agree that your engine is covered but things like sensors attached to it, your intake, etc SHOULD still be covered. They codl make an argument about the tranny and cooling system since they're being streesed beyond design though. |
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10-15-2009, 12:12 PM | #147 | |
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Oh, and a related comment for those 'guilty' of the following: deleting the cats is a federal offense in the US, potentially getting both the tuner (for 'tuning' them out) and owner (for removing them) in some extra hot water. Another gamble, and another reason not to go after BMW if that's part of the ECU modification. Good day folks. |
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10-15-2009, 09:59 PM | #148 | |||
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I do agree with this.
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10-15-2009, 10:39 PM | #149 | |
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Thank God I was a loyal customer (bought E36, 335i and E90 M3) otherwise they might have tried to screw me. I am surprised an 8700 RPM overrev would damage this engine considering it is designed to rev to 8400 RPM. That is momentary 3% higher engine speed - I am sure the engine was tested to that, and multiple chips voluntarily allow it to rev to 8600 RPM.
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10-16-2009, 08:20 AM | #150 |
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Damn some fucked up shit going on in this thread. I feel scared to even bring my car to the dealer now
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10-16-2009, 09:35 AM | #151 |
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Don't be. The whole reason this thread has gotten so much attention is the sheer fact that this almost never happens. Like I said in an earlier post, a whole chain of events has to happen before things ever get to this point.
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10-16-2009, 10:58 AM | #152 |
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Damn performance motors... bloody useless, just wanna suck our money and save up on warranty issues...
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10-17-2009, 12:31 AM | #154 |
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Nothing new. They lost the M dealership anyway. Probably the only place in the world where BMW and M Cars are sold by 2 different agents. I would most definitely get a PI car or the new agent. What's the difference? More to gain on PI Esp cost savings. Also less risk of PML mechanics racing the cars and crashing them and trying to cover up by giving customers a new car. I am sure you have heard of that case.
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