Won ebay auction at 60K for E90 M3, BMW of Lincoln refusing to honor

[MalibuBimmer]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Sh*t, your're right. What's more, you can just click on the same seller name "r***c" for each of the auctions in the list and see that its clearly the same person based on 30 day bid history. So it seems like a lock to me - "r***c" is verifiably the same person, bidding on three seperate husker auctions. Shill? Not guaranteed, but it seems quite probable.

Not a shill if he is a wholesaler or repeat buyer. You have to look at the dealer's inventory following a reportedly successful sale. You also need to analyze the dealership's activity for a period of time to ascertain shill bidding activity. But, based on my experience, reported above, eBay wants to facilitate shill bidding if it helps its sellers. In response to the fraud I found on eBay 4 years ago, eBay changed its policy of identifying buyers (it allowed us to communicate with each other and compare notes), under the guise it was keeping big ticket bidders from being importuned by phony second chance proposals from phishers and spoofers.

[benzlvr]

Okay can we agree the salesman messed up? I don't think the dealer never wanted not to make things right but how to make things right, there are quit a few links in the chain of comand that needed to be contacted. Toss in a weekend to slow response time down and this group of haters to crucify BMW of Lincoln and it really makes this group look bad. I think some rational talk with Fil and he would make things right. In the end Dooma350 will get his car. I hope people will realize that this type of negitive activity only makes the group as a whole look bad, a little persistence and the deal would have gone through. Now all the haters on this group just look stupid.

[imafrk]

If nothing else its very suspicious. You can see the 411 regarding Shill bidding on eBay http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/...l-bidding.html. Then report it here. Independant of the request to stop harrasing the dealer this fake bidder stuf is crapo and if true, should be brought to the attention of teh eBay.

If you look at the bidding by the following users In the last 30 days 5***i and r***c have both placed the 2nd last bids on 3 auctions from the same seller.... hmmm?

(Need to sign in to teh eBay to see the list)

Item number:230232101590

Item number:230233262304

Item number:230233478083

[Ron21]

Originally Posted by MalibuBimmer

Not a shill if he is a wholesaler or repeat buyer. You have to look at the dealer's inventory following a reportedly successful sale. You also need to analyze the dealership's activity for a period of time to ascertain shill bidding activity. But, based on my experience, reported above, eBay wants to facilitate shill bidding if it helps its sellers. In response to the fraud I found on eBay 4 years ago, eBay changed its policy of identifying buyers (it allowed us to communicate with each other and compare notes), under the guise it was keeping big ticket bidders from being importuned by phony second chance proposals from phishers and spoofers.

It could be a wholesaler but we have no way of knowing since we can't see the bidders feedback and their history.

I'm just going by the sellers history and to me it looks very suspicious.

Only Ebay can find out exactly what's going on here.

[MalibuBimmer]

Originally Posted by benzlvr

Okay can we agree the salesman messed up? I don't think the dealer never wanted not to make things right but how to make things right, there are quit a few links in the chain of comand that needed to be contacted. Toss in a weekend to slow response time down and this group of haters to crucify BMW of Lincoln and it really makes this group look bad. I think some rational talk with Fil and he would make things right. In the end Dooma350 will get his car. I hope people will realize that this type of negitive activity only makes the group as a whole look bad, a little persistence and the deal would have gone through. Now all the haters on this group just look stupid.

This is a strange post. Dooma caught the dealer running a little fraud. Plain and clear. And you want to give this dealer a pass? Call it a mistake? And say the people who called out the dealer did something wrong?

It was clearly concerted, planned activity by a dealer or one of his reps, to give the dealer a bigger bottom line and trick some buyers into cars. Typical dealer stuff. And probably a crime as well as fraud.

[0.02eurocents]

OK, looking at this auction:
http://offer.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/...m=230232101590

Checking on the "anon" bidder r***c under this link.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...chOogy5Zook%3D

This guy bid:

eBay Motors > Mercedes-Benz 	3 	Seller 1 	18h
Home & Garden > Living Room, General Furniture 	1 	Seller 2 	4d 2h
eBay Motors > Toyota 	4 	Seller 1 	22h
Art > Contemporary (1980-Now) 	1 	Seller 3 	<1h
Home & Garden > Portable, Space Heaters 	1 	Seller 4 	<1h
eBay Motors > Chevrolet 	2 	Seller 5 	6d
eBay Motors > Chevrolet 	3 	Seller 1 	21h

So, this guy bid on MB, a Toyota and two different Chevys. MB and Toyota and one Chevy were located at the same dealer. The third bid on a Chevy was at another dealer. This looks fishy to me, because Husker happened to have a Toyota and a MB listed:

http://offer.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/...m=230233478083
http://offer.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/...m=230233262304

Enlighten me on the soul of the american car buyer? Are there people who are so bound to make a deal with a SPECIFIC dealer that they switch from one car type / brand to another wildly? To me it looks like salespeople are encouraged to use their private ebay accounts for their private shopping and shill bidding. Normally someone settles for a car type / brand / price range and then shops from there, instead of sticking to all auctions of one seller. Still, just hints, no smoking gun proof, but anyways...

[SvB4EvA]

Originally Posted by 0.02eurocents

Enlighten me on the soul of the american car buyer? Are there people who are so bound to make a deal with a SPECIFIC dealer that they switch from one car type / brand to another wildly? To me it looks like salespeople are encouraged to use their private ebay accounts for their private shopping and shill bidding. Normally someone settles for a car type / brand / price range and then shops from there, instead of sticking to all auctions of one seller. Still, just hints, no smoking gun proof, but anyways...

You are totally right... VERY suspect.

[3aficionado]

Originally Posted by Ron21

They (ebay) really did make it difficult for ordinary ebayers to detect fraud..

They did this because there is A LOT of fraud on eBay. Their fraud detection department couldn't keep up with all the reports of fraud & users talked too much of eBay not responding to their fraud reports. Bad word of mouth was starting to kill eBays business & stock price.

When they hid the screen names they essentially stopped eBay users from detecting fraud or accurately reporting it. Result is less reported fraud. But not less fraud, just less reported fraud. Keeping the eBay users in the dark is the horrible eBay solution to a problem eBay has found its easier to ignore.

If any reporter looking for that big story to make national news is reading this... take a good look into eBays new policies. If you can get some eBay employees to talk you will find they are ignoring fraud so users dont get scared away. Hiding behind the random anonymous screen names eBay sometimes will not even investigate the fraud then tell a user the fraud they reported didn't occur using a form letter/email. The user has no recourse but to trust/believe eBay. And its in eBays best interest to hide this information. If you crack this story you will be working on 20/20 or dateline in no time.

[Stealth_M]

The power of the Net

I tell you it was my chanting in an earlier post that helped but congratulations!

So Ken, as a thank you for our support we want to see you in your new ride so post some pictures as soon as you can

[0.02eurocents]

Originally Posted by 3aficionado

If you can get some eBay employees to talk you will find they are ignoring fraud so users dont get scared away. Hiding behind the random anonymous screen names eBay can not even investigate the fraud then tell a user the fraud they reported didn't occur using a form letter/email. The user has no recourse but to trust/believe eBay.

I am pretty sure that they (ebay) actually can access their databases locally to see the full data should a whole bunch of users complain. I bet if we made this issue viral some accounts would get suspended over an actual investigation. But you're right, especially on ebay motors where ebay potentially cashes in on shill bids twice (once for the shill and once for the inevitable relist later on) it makes it unlikely that solitary user complaint will get honored accordingly.

[beauderek]

Congratulations, dooma on a great fight, great thread and great car!!! Hooray for the little guy. PIALT

[normtrum]

Originally Posted by benzlvr

Okay can we agree the salesman messed up? I don't think the dealer never wanted not to make things right but how to make things right, there are quit a few links in the chain of comand that needed to be contacted. Toss in a weekend to slow response time down and this group of haters to crucify BMW of Lincoln and it really makes this group look bad. I think some rational talk with Fil and he would make things right. In the end Dooma350 will get his car. I hope people will realize that this type of negitive activity only makes the group as a whole look bad, a little persistence and the deal would have gone through. Now all the haters on this group just look stupid.

Well...if you're going to make an effort to join a forum for the sole purpose of calling someone "stupid"...I strongly suggest that next time you utilize the "spell check" function... You might just gain a little bit more credibility.

[kingdaviswaco]

Originally Posted by 0.02eurocents

OK, looking at this auction:
http://offer.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/...m=230232101590

Checking on the "anon" bidder r***c under this link.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...chOogy5Zook%3D

This guy bid:

eBay Motors > Mercedes-Benz 	3 	Seller 1 	18h
Home & Garden > Living Room, General Furniture 	1 	Seller 2 	4d 2h
eBay Motors > Toyota 	4 	Seller 1 	22h
Art > Contemporary (1980-Now) 	1 	Seller 3 	<1h
Home & Garden > Portable, Space Heaters 	1 	Seller 4 	<1h
eBay Motors > Chevrolet 	2 	Seller 5 	6d
eBay Motors > Chevrolet 	3 	Seller 1 	21h

So, this guy bid on MB, a Toyota and two different Chevys. MB and Toyota and one Chevy were located at the same dealer. The third bid on a Chevy was at another dealer. This looks fishy to me, because Husker happened to have a Toyota and a MB listed:

http://offer.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/...m=230233478083
http://offer.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/...m=230233262304

Enlighten me on the soul of the american car buyer? Are there people who are so bound to make a deal with a SPECIFIC dealer that they switch from one car type / brand to another wildly? To me it looks like salespeople are encouraged to use their private ebay accounts for their private shopping and shill bidding. Normally someone settles for a car type / brand / price range and then shops from there, instead of sticking to all auctions of one seller. Still, just hints, no smoking gun proof, but anyways...

Can anyone find out if the other dealership mentioned above is part of the Van Tuyl auto group? If Dealership A and Dealership B are really all part of the same company, than it would be easy to work out a back-channel agreement where payments are never made and salesmen could help each other out. Maybe I'm paranoid, but in browsing through all these pages, it seems like many others besides myself have had Van Tuyl try to stick it to them when they make a purchase. Maybe part of the corporate game plan? Dunno, just asking...

[dgb2]

Soooo when is Lincoln BMW putting their next M3 on eBay? I want a good deal!

[0.02eurocents]

Originally Posted by dgb2

Soooo when is Lincoln BMW putting their next M3 on eBay? I want a good deal!

I think it will be a few days before they fill the now vacant position of the Internet Sales Manager...

[0.02eurocents]

Originally Posted by Laszlo

eBay can do something but will do nothing. It might even be their new mission statement.
As I've said before, eBay is a haven for fraud.
Where is BMWNA on this?

What's BMWNA gonna do without solid proof? Slap ebay into submission?

Doesn't constitute shill bidding a criminal offense? That bait-and-whatever stuff that was mentioned often in this thread. Someone in the US might want to do a writeup of that thing, point to the old auctions, explain the suspicion and mail the whole shebang to the local district attorney (would have to be done by someone in NE). Or can you not file a criminal suit if you are not the person suffering the damages? I bet the DA can subpoena into releasing the full bidding information and associated IPs. I bet the "shillers" used the computers at work more often than not to bid. Or might this even be a Fed case if VT is operating in multiple states?

[the_stranger]

Awesome! Congrats on your new car. You did it.

[ideliver]

Originally Posted by kingdaviswaco

Can anyone find out if the other dealership mentioned above is part of the Van Tuyl auto group? If Dealership A and Dealership B are really all part of the same company, than it would be easy to work out a back-channel agreement where payments are never made and salesmen could help each other out. Maybe I'm paranoid, but in browsing through all these pages, it seems like many others besides myself have had Van Tuyl try to stick it to them when they make a purchase. Maybe part of the corporate game plan? Dunno, just asking...

Originally Posted by kingdaviswaco

Anyone had similar problems with VT Dealerships? Here's a list of VT dealers from 2000:
Westway Ford, Irving, TX
Reliable Chevrolet, Richardson, TX
Camelback Toyota, Phoenix
Showcase Honda, Phoenix
Reliable Chevrolet/Mercedes-Benz, Springfield, MO
ABC Nissan, Phoenix
Trophy Nissan, Mesquite, TX
Vandergriff Chevrolet, Arlington, TX
Toyota of Richardson, TX
Van Chevrolet, Scottsdale, AZ
Pinnacle Nissan/Infiniti, Scottsdale, AZ
Showcase Pontiac-GMC, Phoenix
Crest Autogroup (Cadillac-Isuzu-Kia), Plano, TX
Cerritos Nissan, Cerritos, CA
Van Chevrolet, Carrollton, TX
Grand Prairie Ford, Grand Prairie, TX
Reliable Chevrolet, Tulsa, OK
Showcase Chevrolet, Dallas
Reliable Toyota/Lexus/BMW, Springfield, MO
Gwinnett Place Ford, Duluth, GA
Miles Chevrolet/Nissan, Decatur, IL
Huber Chevrolet, Omaha
Reliable Chevrolet, Albuquerque, NM

This is from earlier in the thread

[3aficionado]

Originally Posted by 0.02eurocents

I am pretty sure that they (ebay) actually can access their databases locally to see the full data should a whole bunch of users complain. I bet if we made this issue viral some accounts would get suspended over an actual investigation. But you're right, especially on ebay motors where ebay potentially cashes in on shill bids twice (once for the shill and once for the inevitable relist later on) it makes it unlikely that solitary user complaint will get honored accordingly.

Bad wording on my behalf. I should have wrote 'eBay sometimes will not investigate the fraud' instead of 'can not investigate'. EBay definitely has the records to look up everything on bidders, buyers & users all the way down to the IP you are surfing their site & how long you stay on. Besides Google & Amazon, eBay has one of the largest databases of customer information and habits for all of eBay & eBay related companies (paypal, etc).

Its not a lack of data that stops eBay from investigating many fraud reports. It hurts eBay if too much fraud is found. EBay or paypal has to refund payments under their protection plan, EBay & paypal have to refund service fees and the word of mouth from so may members suspecting fraud was killing eBays image - that drove down the number of users which drove down revenue & hurt the stock price.

The new policies and fees were put in place to limit the fraud reports, stop users from checking up on eBay in their fraud investigations and increase revenue through a modified fee structure. Ebay also changed how feedback worked so negative comments dont play a role which in effect is helping more fraud on the site. But ebay & paypal get their cut even if its fraud so its in ebays best interest to drive up sales on the site even if its at the cost of its honest members.

Like I wrote earlier, there is a huge story for a reporter that can crack the walls of ebay and get the scoop. Ebay can thank Lincoln BMW for any reporter that gets their story idea from this thread. After all this thread wouldn't exist if the Lincoln BMW stealership didn't try to screw over the OP

[ctzn]

Sorry to hear about the unfortunate circumstance, I hope the deal goes through in your favor and the dealership is able to regain some of their dignity by sticking to the deal.

Congrats from my350z.com or more importantly, from one enthusiast to another.

post some pics when you take delivery

[S4to335]

Originally Posted by 0.02eurocents

What's BMWNA gonna do without solid proof? Slap ebay into submission?

Doesn't constitute shill bidding a criminal offense? That bait-and-whatever stuff that was mentioned often in this thread. Someone in the US might want to do a writeup of that thing, point to the old auctions, explain the suspicion and mail the whole shebang to the local district attorney (would have to be done by someone in NE). Or can you not file a criminal suit if you are not the person suffering the damages? I bet the DA can subpoena into releasing the full bidding information and associated IPs. I bet the "shillers" used the computers at work more often than not to bid. Or might this even be a Fed case if VT is operating in multiple states?

Dealerships are regulated by the Dept of Motor Vehicles in California. I would go to them about this.

[3aficionado]

Originally Posted by Laszlo

I agree with you 100%. Althought they say fraud is only 1%.

I would love this to lead into a 20/20 story. Something on the lines of how eBay might be hiding the truth about how bad fraud is on their service.

They say fraud is only 1%... if you believe that I have an M3 in Nebraska I will sell you for $60k

If fraud is really 1% what good reason would eBay have from hiding information from users that would help them detect fraud (negative feedback & bidding history). The evidence is out there. I'm with you and would like to see a reporter crack this story.