BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > M3 vs....
 
BPM
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-23-2022, 06:14 PM   #1
specka
Private First Class
71
Rep
166
Posts

Drives: M2 LCI BSM
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Melbourne

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2017 BMW M2 LCI  [0.00]
E92 - viable purchase in 2023?

I realise this has been done to death but I'm going through the (e)motions of E92 M3 lust at the moment. This is not strictly an M3 vs M2 thread, its also just about do current owners feel the E92 is still relevant and still a low enough risk proposition in 2023 given the age of the cars.

I currently drive a reasonably modified 2018 M2 LCI, and I absolutely love the car. I do a few track days a year, and I live in a remote town so have access to quiet roads for the occasional blast. I also have two kids under 3 so I am lucky to drive the car 2-3 times per month in recent times. This infrequent use is an important factor when it comes to he potential decision to flip it for an E92.

M2 is my first even non-manual car. I like DCT, its effortless and fast, and delivers some involvement when using paddles or the shifter. However I also own a 23 year old POS ute that is manual and when I drive that I still get a weird pleasure from the 3 pedal experience. The M2 sounds fantastic in N55 format, with a DP...but, its still turbo and its still 95% exhaust/turbo noise and not enough engine.

I suspect - and I am yet to test drive any E92's due to where I live and the scarcity of manual cars for sale - that those very visceral elements that are lacking in the M2 could be satisfied in the M3. What I am concerned about is the potential loss of dynamics and capability vs the M2. The M2 is faster in almost all aspects, I suspect it handles better in twisty roads and is a more competent car all round. This might cause some argument but on paper at least that's the case, including lap times from circuits etc.

Almost every review you watch seems to say the DCT is better matched to the S65 than the manual in order to extract the most out of it. That is also cause for hesitation for me.
So then, perhaps a manual M2 would be better. Then there is the fact that the manual box in both cars is described as average at best.

The age of the cars, and potential costly repairs for things breaking is the other factor - again it will be a weekender, I wont track it so perhaps it will be ok. I have read all the threads about crucial maintenance items, seems its all fairly well documented path so no nasty surprises. Critical items aside, I'd also throw some money at brakes and suspension and swap my Recaro's in from the M2.

I would like to hear people's thoughts on this. Is the gap in capability vs other great modern cars enough to overwhelm the sheer joy of the engine sound/character?

Obviously a test drive is the logical next step...there are more private sale cars around but I'm not the type to go wasting someone's time. Will wait for the right spec to appear at a dealership and then book a test.

The solution would be a Lotus Exige 410 but the $$$ simply can't stretch that far ��
__________________
M2 LCI - DCT - BSM | BM3 Stg 2 | Eventuri Intake | Fabspeed Sportscat | Wagner Evo 2 FMIC | Ohlins R&T | Rays | Recaro Sportster CS

Last edited by specka; 11-23-2022 at 06:21 PM..
Appreciate 1
      11-23-2022, 06:43 PM   #2
Frostynorth
Weirdo
Frostynorth's Avatar
Canada
433
Rep
182
Posts

Drives: 2011 e92 M3
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Middle of nowhere

iTrader: (0)

Coming from a turbo car the loss of torque is really noticeable, do miss it at times. You will be downshifting more to get moving.
You really have to rev it out for that great soundtrack.

Wouldn't worry about DCT vs manual. If you want a stick, it's just fine.

Last edited by Frostynorth; 11-23-2022 at 06:53 PM..
Appreciate 2
specka71.00
cotmfk2042.00
      11-24-2022, 09:27 AM   #3
Longboarder
Major General
Longboarder's Avatar
3430
Rep
6,771
Posts

Drives: 2016 BMW i8
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Monarch Beach

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
I think you will love the e92 M3 DCT.

I have a modded 991 Turbo S and prefer driving my mostly stock e92 DCT comp package carbon roof for pleasure drives. The "lack of torque" is not an issue because my mindset changes when I get into the e92. I drive the DCT is "manual mode" and it holds the gear until I want it to shift. Extracting full power/potential takes some effort which js fun. Only time I use auto mode is traffic or if I want to rip off a 3.9 second 0-60 which it will still do 10 years old 57k miles according to my dragy (1-ft rollout) with the help of euro MDM and some PS4S tires at 28psi rear. I can go all out on the street with this car and not worry about going to jail.

I also used to heavily track a 991 GT3 and I would bring the e92 with me as well to these track days and would switch back and forth and yes the e92 is slower but just as much fun. It was slow enough to give me more time to consider all inputs and to be able to clear my mind on track and as a consequence, became a better driver, according to my driving coach. Track setup was basic on the e92. I bought a set of stop tech brakes and used the street performance pads and no squeal on the street or track (I accel through the 1 marker and threshold left foot brake - dont think the stock brakes are up to this abuse). Set of camber plates to dial in alignment and some Cup2's. That's it. Retired from the track and swapped back to stock brakes so the only mod is the camber plates as it does need a little more neg camber up front for the way I drive. Stock brakes / pads are fine for street.

M2 is a cool car and like most modern sports cars prob faster everywhere but cannot provide the emotion of the e92. It is on a special class of cars with large displacement NA motors that rev past 8k rpm. And yes the DCT is THAT good - a little idiosyncratic and sometimes clunky in auto mode but that's what makes it special. Like the PDK-S in the GT3, redline wot shifts rip through your fingers through your arms into your spine.

One last thing, on stock suspension (I have comp 10mm lower) the ride quality is very comfortable and the seats are also amazingly comfortable. Prefer these seats to any other I have had including the M8 and X5M. By the way I was going to replace the e92 for an M8 but ended up dumping the M8 after 6 months since the e92 was soooo much better. M8 is quick off the line but so what. Everywhere else it has compromises. Glad I hung on to the e92 and didnt sell it during the time I had the M8.

Anyway I can rant on on how amazing and special the e92 DCT is but you should experience it yourself. Yes go to a dealer and yes let it warm up properly and then rip on it for a while with an open mind perspective for a high revving motor. Good luck.
__________________
Current BMWs: 2022 X5 40i, 2016 X5 50i
2015 Porsche 991 Turbo S
1979 Porsche 911 Turbo (930)
a couple others
IG: longboarder949; YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT1...eoFBszPIK0gf9w
Appreciate 5
specka71.00
Cmassey3413.50
Helmsman4465.00
SaMaster144430.50
      11-24-2022, 01:45 PM   #4
akkando
Major General
akkando's Avatar
5863
Rep
6,635
Posts

Drives: 17 M2 DCT LBB,11 e90 M3 ZCP IB
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Bay Area

iTrader: (1)

I have both. You'll be trading torque, nimbleness, possibly reliability, feeling of smaller size and less weight for a more exciting engine when driven hard, better soundtrack front to back especially with intake plenum and exhaust, sharper throttle response, steering feeling, more stability, and mushy brake feel.

The gas milage is better on the m2, it has more tech, but the m3 has more premium feeling interior. I installed Carplay headunit on the m3 to bring it up to date.


I feel more on the edge of my seat in the m3 when I rev it out, but the m2 feels more exciting ripping around tight corners around town even at slow speeds. Short wheel base of m2 and the newer diff really is the star for the m2.
Appreciate 2
specka71.00
SaMaster144430.50
      11-25-2022, 07:11 AM   #5
BimmerMan33
Private First Class
BimmerMan33's Avatar
United_States
125
Rep
192
Posts

Drives: 2011 BMW M3, 2014 BMW X5
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Illinois, USA

iTrader: (0)

It is a must to rev out the e92 M3 to hear the induction sound & feel the power as well as specialness of this motor.
You need access to open roads to have fun in the M3. It does not feel special driving in city traffic!
The M2 might be more fun for city driving but never feels special no matter how you drive.
M3 is an emotional car & not a numbers car.

If you get the M3, budget for $5000 for repairs/maintenance/preventative rod bearing service.
Appreciate 3
specka71.00
Cmassey3413.50
SaMaster144430.50
      11-25-2022, 08:54 PM   #6
akkando
Major General
akkando's Avatar
5863
Rep
6,635
Posts

Drives: 17 M2 DCT LBB,11 e90 M3 ZCP IB
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Bay Area

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerMan33 View Post
It is a must to rev out the e92 M3 to hear the induction sound & feel the power as well as specialness of this motor.
You need access to open roads to have fun in the M3. It does not feel special driving in city traffic!
The M2 might be more fun for city driving but never feels special no matter how you drive.
M3 is an emotional car & not a numbers car.

If you get the M3, budget for $5000 for repairs/maintenance/preventative rod bearing service.
Yeah but it SOUNDS special in city traffic with the right mods.
Appreciate 0
      11-26-2022, 03:58 AM   #7
specka
Private First Class
71
Rep
166
Posts

Drives: M2 LCI BSM
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Melbourne

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2017 BMW M2 LCI  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerMan33 View Post
It is a must to rev out the e92 M3 to hear the induction sound & feel the power as well as specialness of this motor.
You need access to open roads to have fun in the M3. It does not feel special driving in city traffic!
The M2 might be more fun for city driving but never feels special no matter how you drive.
M3 is an emotional car & not a numbers car.

If you get the M3, budget for $5000 for repairs/maintenance/preventative rod bearing service.
Thanks for the input. The two I am looking at currently have 60-70k KM on the clock and neither has had the bearings done, so I thin from reading here its a good idea to get the oil tested.

I am 2 hours from a city and have a lot of good open roads, but more importantly a lot of very twisty ones that are pretty sketchy but incredible fun. For any Australian's think Reefton Spur, Kinglake, Lake Mountain. I had to replace the factory suspension to get the car dialled in for these types of roads, but with amazing results.

I think the term "special" depends what you mean - if its some sort of association to the M3 pedigree, or the nicer interior then I'm not looking for that. I certainly don't need it to be a 'nice place to be' for daily driving. The sound is the exception, its one those non-performance related items that still sits high on the list of priorities!

If its a better/more dynamic chassis, more communicative steering and overall a more 'connected' drive as people seem to be indicating, then I think it could be the one.

fwiw I find the M2 feels very special being driven hard on track or in the Alpine roads, it needed a few mods but it is an absolute blast to drive. But in relative terms to the E92 I have to concede to not knowing yet. Soon though!
__________________
M2 LCI - DCT - BSM | BM3 Stg 2 | Eventuri Intake | Fabspeed Sportscat | Wagner Evo 2 FMIC | Ohlins R&T | Rays | Recaro Sportster CS
Appreciate 0
      11-26-2022, 04:02 AM   #8
specka
Private First Class
71
Rep
166
Posts

Drives: M2 LCI BSM
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Melbourne

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2017 BMW M2 LCI  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by akkando View Post
I have both. You'll be trading torque, nimbleness, possibly reliability, feeling of smaller size and less weight for a more exciting engine when driven hard, better soundtrack front to back especially with intake plenum and exhaust, sharper throttle response, steering feeling, more stability, and mushy brake feel.

The gas milage is better on the m2, it has more tech, but the m3 has more premium feeling interior. I installed Carplay headunit on the m3 to bring it up to date.


I feel more on the edge of my seat in the m3 when I rev it out, but the m2 feels more exciting ripping around tight corners around town even at slow speeds. Short wheel base of m2 and the newer diff really is the star for the m2.
Thanks this is very helpful to hear from someone who has both. It seems to mirror the general consensus in terms of pros and cons.

If you had to pick just one based on the driving experience, which would you choose?
__________________
M2 LCI - DCT - BSM | BM3 Stg 2 | Eventuri Intake | Fabspeed Sportscat | Wagner Evo 2 FMIC | Ohlins R&T | Rays | Recaro Sportster CS
Appreciate 0
      11-26-2022, 12:23 PM   #9
akkando
Major General
akkando's Avatar
5863
Rep
6,635
Posts

Drives: 17 M2 DCT LBB,11 e90 M3 ZCP IB
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Bay Area

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by specka View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by akkando View Post
I have both. You'll be trading torque, nimbleness, possibly reliability, feeling of smaller size and less weight for a more exciting engine when driven hard, better soundtrack front to back especially with intake plenum and exhaust, sharper throttle response, steering feeling, more stability, and mushy brake feel.

The gas milage is better on the m2, it has more tech, but the m3 has more premium feeling interior. I installed Carplay headunit on the m3 to bring it up to date.


I feel more on the edge of my seat in the m3 when I rev it out, but the m2 feels more exciting ripping around tight corners around town even at slow speeds. Short wheel base of m2 and the newer diff really is the star for the m2.
Thanks this is very helpful to hear from someone who has both. It seems to mirror the general consensus in terms of pros and cons.

If you had to pick just one based on the driving experience, which would you choose?
Hard to say really, guess that's why I have both.

I think if I knew the e90 m3 was going to be reliable I would go with that if I could only have one, I think it does seem more special. Where else can I get a car that seats four or five, and in my case that has four doors, sounds this good, with these two transmissions, that likes to rev to the moon? They don't make them like this anymore. The m2 is entertaining more often though. The m2 is like a slice of pizza, the m3 is like a steak.

If you're not the type of person who will rev out the E9x m3 to 8k+ I wouldn't get it. It gives you more the harder you push the engine. Often I see people worried about stressing the engine and short shifting at 5k. You need to be willing to downshift to the appropriate gear to get the car moving the way you want. It's a more jekyll and hyde type of experience.
Appreciate 1
specka71.00
      11-26-2022, 02:05 PM   #10
14_deltaM3
Private First Class
134
Rep
117
Posts

Drives: e36m3 euro ó>e92m3
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

The m2ís true improvements over an e9x are the short wheelbase and improved agility, and the torque. The e9x wheelbase means that agility canít really be replicated.

The torque issue is so overrated in my view and represents a personal choice for drivers. ďEasy accessĒ to power is like all things that are easy - less memorable and special.

The engine of the e9x M3 is really its central identity. Nothing compares unless youíre looking at Audi R8s, GT class Porsches and exotics. When people use the word special for this car, this is what they mean. Once you sit in it and run through 3 gears at full throttle, your senses will ALL be engaged and you will be hooked.


What I said earlier about the m2 agility is true, but what many donít mention about the M2 is thatís itís considerably more ďrefinedĒ - less vibration from engine, steering, transmission (manual and DCT). This reflects the chassis itís based on. Many people donít know this, but M division initially refused to work on the f8x chassis because of how floppy and isolating it was. M had to gain approval of BMWs board to essentially reengineer the subframes of f8x cars and other aspects before they started on the M division products. This caused many issues in BMW as BMW wanted to avoid the investment to do so, and follow the AMG approach for how M cars are designed and engineered (to the benefit of profitability and at the cost of engineering intergirty). It was solved eventually, but at the compromise of the rawness offered by the car (more isolating experience, even if more agile), and weight. When you realize that the m3 has many inches of wheelbase over the M2, a V8, and yet weighs about the same, you start to wonder.
Appreciate 4
specka71.00
ZZZZNA0.00
SaMaster144430.50
      11-26-2022, 02:57 PM   #11
SnohoRaptor
First Lieutenant
SnohoRaptor's Avatar
United_States
535
Rep
364
Posts

Drives: 2011 AW E92 ZCP 6MT
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Snohomish, WA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2021 Toyota Tacoma  [0.00]
2020 BMW X5  [9.00]
2020 Subaru WRX  [0.00]
2019 Ford Raptor  [0.00]
2011 BMW M3  [0.00]
I had a champagne quartz F80 for 2 years as a daily. Bought it just off lease with 11K. Great car, lots of tech, torque, and the DCT was epic. But the more I drove that car the more I started to realize it wasn't checking every box. Plus the cost of ownership wasn't conducive to our budget if I parked it and daily something else.

Now there is a special e92 in the garage that isn't a daily. I don't want to be the fastest and would rather focus on the road and the theater of driving, so the loss of torque and tech isn't missed.

Sound being a big factor and this is where these cars shine. Especially if you sprinkle in some upgrades to increase the induction and exhaust soundtrack.

Sure you can daily them and sit in traffic, but keeping them for sunny days and special occasions fills my cup. I love this car. My wife loves this car.
__________________
AW 2011 E92 ZCP 6MT single hump w/speed cloth.
Alpine Stage 2 | Apex Manufacturing X-Pipe |
Corsa | BayOptiks | Haimus Racing CF Plenum

MW 2020 G05 X5 with delicious coffee interior
Appreciate 3
specka71.00
CamasM3e933147.50
SaMaster144430.50
      11-27-2022, 08:55 AM   #12
BIGMIG
Private First Class
BIGMIG's Avatar
Canada
24
Rep
115
Posts

Drives: E92 M3/ '13 F800GS
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Winnipeg

iTrader: (0)

I pined and lusted after M2s all through the development and prelaunch phase. I wanted to order one, was bummed no individual option existed. Life changed and I was glad I didn't buy at the time.

A cheap manual E92 fell into my lap and Ive put thousands in. Many days I hate it especially when I am fixing it, but then it wins me back every time I get it perfect again.

I would say it depends on your day to day needs for a car. DCT is always faster and like another member said it has versatility. The S65B40 engine is fast enough revving, and if your skills allow, the car is a "two-hands on the wheel" fast.

In my area the speeds are low and the cops and speed camera a plenty. I use cruse control and drive as slow as possible because I am burning 12-16L/100km depending on how much I feel like burying the peddle.

The car is at home at 70km/h and higher, and somewhat hates life below that or in stop and go. it is very much the wrong car and I start to hate it again... it is a nice place to be inside, but there are more comfy and more economical cars for traffic.

People mention making the car louder, and maybe I got old but I like things stock ish so that when I do drive flat out, I don't get too much attention. Maybe it's my appearance but certain age demographics get uppity with event the slightest blip of the throttle to 3500rpm to shift down to 2nd lol.

The engine has plenty of bark but the sound deadening in the cabin is intense. The E92 M3 is very much a windows down radio off car for me. People like the E93 for this reason. Overall it is bomb at grand touring and highway commutes. I winter beat mine and it is great. My roads suck so I run Bilstein B6 shocks rich are ideal for these conditions and cabins runs.

I still sit in it lusting at clean E46s which are true nimbleness and agility. I had a cage-less SpecE46 street car build that I miss dearly.

The M2 is gonna offer more performance and probably more economy in traffic rush hour commutes. If you don't mind driving slow and getting passed by everyone in Kias or shit boxes with low end torque, GET ONE. This car will be slower in every way. I don't care about getting buzzed on the track by M2s F8X M3s ect I am having a BALL.

Budget $3k a year for pro-active maintenance / repairs LOL

Edit: for traffic and rush our commutes I prefer motorcycles or this shitbox Toyota Echo NCP13 that is a marvel to drive and burns exactly half the gas. Perfect short trip car. The performance yields from mods are enormous. I swear I got 15hp (Back) from fresh plugs. To get that on the S65 is like, $350 for under drive pulleys, $200 for a tune from DINAN and a $100 drop in filter. I was peeping the DINAN throttle bodies for a casual $2000 for 6-9hp. with a $3800 core charge...

If you want a tuner car, the E9X M3 kinda sucks beyond going straight Forza motorsport/Track Tool/Racekor. It is a very special car when stock as it maintains the two-faced duality. You can cruise/dub or your can hang gear and roll on and off the gas for epic sounds. Way more tactile.

Last edited by BIGMIG; 11-27-2022 at 11:14 AM..
Appreciate 2
specka71.00
SaMaster144430.50
      11-27-2022, 06:31 PM   #13
Redd
Brigadier General
3897
Rep
4,160
Posts

Drives: 2010 BMW E92 M3 Dakar Edition
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Malaysia

iTrader: (0)

They're both great cars. I think the fact that you're cracking your brain over an M2 vs something 10 years older is testament to how great the E9x M3 is. Something to consider - in another 10 years will people still be comparing the next H-gen M2/M3/M4 vs the E9x M3?

If you compare a stock E9x M3 vs M2, the M2 will feel newer, tighter, more solid, with more tech. As it should, that's what progress is all about. The E9x M3 can be modded to replicate some of these newer tech in the M2. Solid subframe bushes, android iDrive screen, better brakes and suspension, etc. With the help of the aftermarket you can even fix some of the perceived reliability issues with the E9x M3 - leaky DCT pan, throttle actuators, rod bearings, etc. I have a pretty highly modded E92 M3 and I don't find myself lagging behind the M2/M4s in the canyons. On track is another matter entirely, the fastest E9x are still about 5s slower than M2/M4 on a 2 and a half min track.

But you will never be able to retrofit the S65 V8 into an M2. The S65 V8 is a truly special engine. It will never have the torque surge of the N55/S55 turbo but its screaming, high revving, instant throttle response nature is something from a bygone era and will never be replicated by BMW again. However there is a price to pay for this experience, and that's fuel consumption. Reliability wise, it's give or take between the S65 and S55 - rod bearings on one, crank hub on the other.

End of the day, it's your money. For me, I find my M3 to be the perfect single do-everything everyday car. A PGT car would be more outright special and faster but still lacks the drama of the S65 V8 and is missing two seats entirely (not to mention costing 3-4x the price). It's a tough choice you need to make but both are great drives.
Appreciate 2
      11-30-2022, 07:15 PM   #14
Longboarder
Major General
Longboarder's Avatar
3430
Rep
6,771
Posts

Drives: 2016 BMW i8
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Monarch Beach

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redd View Post
They're both great cars. I think the fact that you're cracking your brain over an M2 vs something 10 years older is testament to how great the E9x M3 is. Something to consider - in another 10 years will people still be comparing the next H-gen M2/M3/M4 vs the E9x M3?

If you compare a stock E9x M3 vs M2, the M2 will feel newer, tighter, more solid, with more tech. As it should, that's what progress is all about. The E9x M3 can be modded to replicate some of these newer tech in the M2. Solid subframe bushes, android iDrive screen, better brakes and suspension, etc. With the help of the aftermarket you can even fix some of the perceived reliability issues with the E9x M3 - leaky DCT pan, throttle actuators, rod bearings, etc. I have a pretty highly modded E92 M3 and I don't find myself lagging behind the M2/M4s in the canyons. On track is another matter entirely, the fastest E9x are still about 5s slower than M2/M4 on a 2 and a half min track.

But you will never be able to retrofit the S65 V8 into an M2. The S65 V8 is a truly special engine. It will never have the torque surge of the N55/S55 turbo but its screaming, high revving, instant throttle response nature is something from a bygone era and will never be replicated by BMW again. However there is a price to pay for this experience, and that's fuel consumption. Reliability wise, it's give or take between the S65 and S55 - rod bearings on one, crank hub on the other.

End of the day, it's your money. For me, I find my M3 to be the perfect single do-everything everyday car. A PGT car would be more outright special and faster but still lacks the drama of the S65 V8 and is missing two seats entirely (not to mention costing 3-4x the price). It's a tough choice you need to make but both are great drives.
I haven't paid much attention in the last couple years but from what I recall at the SoCal tracks, the highly modded e92 M3's like Dogbone's are setting the fastest track day lap times. Not against other BMW's but against the fastest MacLaren, Porsche GT cars and Vettes.
__________________
Current BMWs: 2022 X5 40i, 2016 X5 50i
2015 Porsche 991 Turbo S
1979 Porsche 911 Turbo (930)
a couple others
IG: longboarder949; YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT1...eoFBszPIK0gf9w
Appreciate 0
      11-30-2022, 07:27 PM   #15
DRLane
Brigadier General
DRLane's Avatar
United_States
3989
Rep
3,408
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (21)

Garage List
2008 m3  [6.63]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redd View Post
They're both great cars. I think the fact that you're cracking your brain over an M2 vs something 10 years older is testament to how great the E9x M3 is. Something to consider - in another 10 years will people still be comparing the next H-gen M2/M3/M4 vs the E9x M3?

If you compare a stock E9x M3 vs M2, the M2 will feel newer, tighter, more solid, with more tech. As it should, that's what progress is all about. The E9x M3 can be modded to replicate some of these newer tech in the M2. Solid subframe bushes, android iDrive screen, better brakes and suspension, etc. With the help of the aftermarket you can even fix some of the perceived reliability issues with the E9x M3 - leaky DCT pan, throttle actuators, rod bearings, etc. I have a pretty highly modded E92 M3 and I don't find myself lagging behind the M2/M4s in the canyons. On track is another matter entirely, the fastest E9x are still about 5s slower than M2/M4 on a 2 and a half min track.

But you will never be able to retrofit the S65 V8 into an M2. The S65 V8 is a truly special engine. It will never have the torque surge of the N55/S55 turbo but its screaming, high revving, instant throttle response nature is something from a bygone era and will never be replicated by BMW again. However there is a price to pay for this experience, and that's fuel consumption. Reliability wise, it's give or take between the S65 and S55 - rod bearings on one, crank hub on the other.

End of the day, it's your money. For me, I find my M3 to be the perfect single do-everything everyday car. A PGT car would be more outright special and faster but still lacks the drama of the S65 V8 and is missing two seats entirely (not to mention costing 3-4x the price). It's a tough choice you need to make but both are great drives.
I haven't paid much attention in the last couple years but from what I recall at the SoCal tracks, the highly modded e92 M3's like Dogbone's are setting the fastest track day lap times. Not against other BMW's but against the fastest MacLaren, Porsche GT cars and Vettes.
A similarly prepped f8x could lay a comparable if not faster time than Gabe's e90. The available power is hard to replicate. That said, you'd have to be a talented driver Also the longer wheel base vs M2 is preferential given the M2 is a heavy pig.
__________________
Not a Doctor, those are just my initials.
Appreciate 0
      12-01-2022, 11:33 AM   #16
Richneerd
The WEEBM3
Richneerd's Avatar
469
Rep
782
Posts

Drives: E90 WEEBM3
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: San Jose, CA

iTrader: (0)

Sounds like everyone covered everything so I'll just say a few words.

If you want the E9X M3.
  • Be ready for 8-11 MPG days.
  • Keep it up above 5K RPM when you shift or downshift; That's where the S65 sings
  • Since you got kids too, I recommend a 4 door, it's an amazing family car, I take my kids to the track, they say GOFASTER
  • 6MT for enjoyment, DCT for practicality, if you have a DCT in the M2, get 6MT in for the M3
  • Don't think, just do it and drive, worry about stuff later when you're at the gas station every 2-3 days.
  • Welcome to the club, looking forward to what color you get
__________________
BMW E90 Alpine White Slicktop Stripped 6M 03/2008
IG: @Richneerd
Appreciate 4
Helmsman4465.00
cotmfk2042.00
SaMaster144430.50
      12-03-2022, 09:50 PM   #17
Lucky1
Colonel
Canada
647
Rep
2,051
Posts

Drives: '08 128i Coupe SGM 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
I only find the engine and throttle response in the car to be "visceral". The steering (servotronic is awful) clutch, gearbox and turn in due size and weight sap all the rawness out of the car. I see the E90 as a comfortable highway and city cruiser with tons of practicality save gas mileage.

I suspect the 1M, E46 M3 and the Z4M are better BMW's if you are looking for classic analog feel vs an M2.

My Z4M Roadster is way, way more analog, visceral and fun to drive than my E90. I'm dying to try an E46.
Appreciate 0
      12-04-2022, 03:16 PM   #18
neilum
Captain
897
Rep
753
Posts

Drives: 718 GT4
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Bergen County NJ

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by specka View Post
Thanks for the input. The two I am looking at currently have 60-70k KM on the clock and neither has had the bearings done, so I thin from reading here its a good idea to get the oil tested.

I am 2 hours from a city and have a lot of good open roads, but more importantly a lot of very twisty ones that are pretty sketchy but incredible fun. For any Australian's think Reefton Spur, Kinglake, Lake Mountain. I had to replace the factory suspension to get the car dialled in for these types of roads, but with amazing results.

I think the term "special" depends what you mean - if its some sort of association to the M3 pedigree, or the nicer interior then I'm not looking for that. I certainly don't need it to be a 'nice place to be' for daily driving. The sound is the exception, its one those non-performance related items that still sits high on the list of priorities!

If its a better/more dynamic chassis, more communicative steering and overall a more 'connected' drive as people seem to be indicating, then I think it could be the one.

fwiw I find the M2 feels very special being driven hard on track or in the Alpine roads, it needed a few mods but it is an absolute blast to drive. But in relative terms to the E92 I have to concede to not knowing yet. Soon though!
If you like your M2 and it feels special, keep it.

Personally modern turbo M cars do not excite my senses like the e9x M3 does. I owned an f80 prior to my e92 m3 and did not enjoy it. The new M's traded character for power. I can totally tell the difference.

Regarding performance, e92 m3 is a fast car with just a few mods (ohlins/cat delete/tune). It sounds like you may be over stating the performance angle, or under estimating M3 here. I run with local guys who have 991 GTS, 718 Boxster spyders on local mountain runs up in New York state and there is no doubt my car belongs and they both would have to really really push it to pull away or have my car be outclassed. Properly modded e9x M3's are not slow. If you're going for all out lap times then sure, you will lose but real world use cases, I doubt you will get out of a modded e92 and feel its outright "slow"

e9x m3's are also incredibly easy to drive fast. They are very balanced overall and the limits are very approachable. I'd bet if you put me in my old 475 whp f80 M3, and me in my current 375 whp e92, i would be faster in the v8 on most circuits. It puts power down seamlessly, the chassis never feels overwhelmed or upset. It exhibits neither excessive understeer or oversteer and allows me, an amateur to push it 8/10th in total control. I've had very few "pucker up" moments in this car.

Summary here is, in my opinion the e92 offers a level of excitement and fun that modern turbo BMW's cannot come close to. These are feelings that are hard to articulate on a car forum but the s65 is a very special engine full of character, godly intake and exhaust sounds, throttle response, and revs.

Honestly just cruising on the highway at 80MPH, the engine feels totally alive in your lap, its hard to explain.
Appreciate 0
      12-11-2022, 11:11 PM   #19
kyrix1st
Colonel
kyrix1st's Avatar
2359
Rep
2,360
Posts

Drives: G87 M2; E92M3 MT&DCT; M3 euro
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: nyc

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2004 BMW Z4  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by specka View Post
.....Almost every review you watch seems to say the DCT is better matched to the S65 than the manual in order to extract the most out of it. That is also cause for hesitation for me. .......
From someone who currently owns both E92 M3 6MT and DCT; DCT being a better match than a manual for S65 engine is bullsht.

DCT's throttle response isn't as sharp as the MT, and the diff lock is less aggressive on the DCT. What 6MT loses due to the slower gear changes are made up by 6MT's gear ratios which allow one to stay at high rpm longer. Combined with the fact that 6MT is lighter, acceleration figures are identical between the two. Also, maintaining MT is much cheaper and easier since you don't need a special equipment to change the transmission fluid.

What DCT has over MT is ease of driving. If you are not a skilled MT driver, you may have more fun with DCT.
__________________
Pass me if you can.
Appreciate 2
BSM n54iS2684.50
DanMpower3234.00
      12-12-2022, 12:50 AM   #20
spammysammich
Major
spammysammich's Avatar
1581
Rep
1,102
Posts

Drives: 2009 E92 M3 Dakar Yellow II
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Edmonds, WA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 BMW M3  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
From someone who currently owns both E92 M3 6MT and DCT; DCT being a better match than a manual for S65 engine is bullsht.

DCT's throttle response isn't as sharp as the MT, and the diff lock is less aggressive on the DCT. What 6MT loses due to the slower gear changes are made up by 6MT's gear ratios which allow one to stay at high rpm longer. Combined with the fact that 6MT is lighter, acceleration figures are identical between the two. Also, maintaining MT is much cheaper and easier since you don't need a special equipment to change the transmission fluid.

What DCT has over MT is ease of driving. If you are not a skilled MT driver, you may have more fun with DCT.
I definitely noticed the throttle response when I was tailing MT e92s. My car kinda hesitates for a second if I was going from light to a sudden stab of full throttle and even with a stage 2 Dinan tune with their DCT tune.

What special equipment are you talking about? Iím planning a DCT service soon and was going to use the same fluid transfer pump I use for my MT services, thoroughly cleaned out of course.
Appreciate 0
      12-16-2022, 08:32 AM   #21
14_deltaM3
Private First Class
134
Rep
117
Posts

Drives: e36m3 euro ó>e92m3
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
From someone who currently owns both E92 M3 6MT and DCT; DCT being a better match than a manual for S65 engine is bullsht.

DCT's throttle response isn't as sharp as the MT, and the diff lock is less aggressive on the DCT. What 6MT loses due to the slower gear changes are made up by 6MT's gear ratios which allow one to stay at high rpm longer. Combined with the fact that 6MT is lighter, acceleration figures are identical between the two. Also, maintaining MT is much cheaper and easier since you don't need a special equipment to change the transmission fluid.

What DCT has over MT is ease of driving. If you are not a skilled MT driver, you may have more fun with DCT.
Agreed. Most of the reviews that spout that BS line of DCT being a better match are in-period reviews coloured by the horrible SMG that came before. Now, 14 years later after launch, time has crept up on the DCT and yet the manuals appeal has only grown. The DCT is now dated. In the end, manual vs DCT is only down to one matter: engagement. And thereís no doubt which one offers more engagement. Performance difference is irrelevant now that the m3 is no longer bought for being at the forefront of pure performance.
Appreciate 1
DanMpower3234.00
      01-22-2023, 09:37 PM   #22
F87M2Melb
New Member
20
Rep
9
Posts

Drives: VW Golf
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Australia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by specka View Post
I realise this has been done to death but I'm going through the (e)motions of E92 M3 lust at the moment. This is not strictly an M3 vs M2 thread, its also just about do current owners feel the E92 is still relevant and still a low enough risk proposition in 2023 given the age of the cars.

I currently drive a reasonably modified 2018 M2 LCI, and I absolutely love the car. I do a few track days a year, and I live in a remote town so have access to quiet roads for the occasional blast. I also have two kids under 3 so I am lucky to drive the car 2-3 times per month in recent times. This infrequent use is an important factor when it comes to he potential decision to flip it for an E92.

M2 is my first even non-manual car. I like DCT, its effortless and fast, and delivers some involvement when using paddles or the shifter. However I also own a 23 year old POS ute that is manual and when I drive that I still get a weird pleasure from the 3 pedal experience. The M2 sounds fantastic in N55 format, with a DP...but, its still turbo and its still 95% exhaust/turbo noise and not enough engine.

I suspect - and I am yet to test drive any E92's due to where I live and the scarcity of manual cars for sale - that those very visceral elements that are lacking in the M2 could be satisfied in the M3. What I am concerned about is the potential loss of dynamics and capability vs the M2. The M2 is faster in almost all aspects, I suspect it handles better in twisty roads and is a more competent car all round. This might cause some argument but on paper at least that's the case, including [...]
I am in the exact same boat as you - looking at getting an E92 M3 from a 2017 M2. I am from Melbourne too (we had actually exchanged a few messages previously about your led steering wheel) and Iím trying to work out how to best get a feel of the E92 as I havenít driven one myself as well. Not sure a short drive at a dealer would give me that.

Did you end up getting an E92 M3? Would love to hear how youíve gone through your process especially being Melbourne based.

Iíve got the real itch to get an e92 M3 but am really not sure itís a the car for me and I would enjoy it more than my current M2. Seems like thereís generally mixed sentiments when comparing the OG M2 to the E92 M3.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:45 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST