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      10-17-2018, 09:18 PM   #45
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All I had to do is search the facts I provided and it's easy to find. Here's a link for ya...

Keep in mind these are non-partisan CBO numbers.

Quote:
Look at it this way. Tax revenues are up by $31 billion so far this fiscal year compared with last year. But spending is up $115 billion.

In other words, the entire increase in the deficit so far this year has been due to spending hikes, not tax cuts.
https://www.investors.com/politics/e...onomic-growth/
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      10-18-2018, 05:58 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
All I had to do is search the facts I provided and it's easy to find. Here's a link for ya...

Keep in mind these are non-partisan CBO numbers.



https://www.investors.com/politics/e...onomic-growth/
I won’t even get into how right wing that source is, which is why I used a WSJ article in my OP. Not exactly a liberal source, but they get just as any other sane economist does that this isn’t good. Besides, if we use your numbers how does this account for the whole deficit increase? We seem to be missing about 600 billion or so in those numbers.

Also, Trump wants his border wall and a massive infrastructure project. Without raising taxes, how is this going to be done and getting closer to a balanced budget by cutting other programs alone? How hot is the economy going to have to get to pay for all of this?

Also, keep in mind this budget was passed by a Republican Congress and signed by a Republican President. As you know this includes the likes of the HFC and Paul Ryan. All supposed deficit hawks that howled about QE etc during a bad economy. Well these are QE/bad economy like deficit numbers in a supposedly great economy. Facts.....

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stancol.../#1281ce2348cd
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      10-18-2018, 07:01 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
All I had to do is search the facts I provided and it's easy to find. Here's a link for ya...

Keep in mind these are non-partisan CBO numbers.



https://www.investors.com/politics/e...onomic-growth/
I won't even get into how right wing that source is, which is why I used a WSJ article in my OP. Not exactly a liberal source, but they get just as any other sane economist does that this isn't good. Besides, if we use your numbers how does this account for the whole deficit increase? We seem to be missing about 600 billion or so in those numbers.

Also, Trump wants his border wall and a massive infrastructure project. Without raising taxes, how is this going to be done and getting closer to a balanced budget by cutting other programs alone? How hot is the economy going to have to get to pay for all of this?

Also, keep in mind this budget was passed by a Republican Congress and signed by a Republican President. As you know this includes the likes of the HFC and Paul Ryan. All supposed deficit hawks that howled about QE etc during a bad economy. Well these are QE/bad economy like deficit numbers in a supposedly great economy. Facts.....

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stancol.../#1281ce2348cd
First- those are non-partisan CBO numbers, but yes that is a right-leaning analyses of indisputable facts.

Also- I agree this is being done during a republican led congress and president. I think it's fair to call out how the republicans in Congress are supposed to be the party of fiscal responsibility. (this is the olive branch portion of my post)

The fact is- there is very little apatite for reduced spending among the general voting public; and zero apatite for reducing spending among congressional Democrats. Actually what seems to be popular is massive increases in spending (as-in trillions a year) as you move leftward politicly.

So while Republicans are selling their fiscally-responsible souls; the Democrats don't even have a fiscally responsible soul to sell! How can we take criticism from the left seriously when they're simultaneously proposing trillions of dollars a year in increased spending?

Lastly- I have little confidence that we can agree on anything related to this discussion when you seem to be in denial that the American economy is doing great at the moment.
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      10-18-2018, 07:18 AM   #48
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First- those are non-partisan CBO numbers, but yes that is a right-leaning analyses of indisputable facts.

Also- I agree this is being done during a republican led congress and president. I think it's fair to call out how the republicans in Congress are supposed to be the party of fiscal responsibility.

The fact is- there is very little apatite for reduced spending among the general voting public; and zero apatite for reducing spending among congressional Democrats. Actually what seems to be popular is massive increases in spending (as-in trillions a year) as you move leftward politicly.

So while Republicans are selling their fiscally-responsible souls; the Democrats don't even have a fiscally responsible soul to sell on this topic! How can we take criticism from the left seriously when they're simultaneously proposing trillions of dollars a year in increased spending?
One, I'm not from the left nor does this have anything to do with Democrats or the left. Two, because the Republicans spent the entire Obama administration screaming about deficits and threatening to shut the government down over even raising the debt limit ceiling. This helped get guys like Ryan and FMC members elected whose supposed whole mission was to bring down the deficit and spending. Then they get the chance and this is what they do? How can you say there is no appetite for it when they got elected with this being a major part of their platform?

I agree the CBO numbers are non partisan, but they tell a very small part of the story as to what is happening and why. I also agree the left and most Dems aren't fiscally responsible. It's one thing to be that, but a completely different thing to do what the Republicans just did, especially given the whole story. Great economy and hold pretty much all of the power in government etc. I agree, when some of the Dems brought up the idea of resisting raising the debt ceiling was a farce.

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      10-18-2018, 07:22 AM   #49
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One, I'm not from the left nor does this have anything to do with Democrats or the left. Two, because the Republicans...
Ahh I see your point... This has nothing to do with Democrats or the left; yet everything to do with Republicans. Gotcha champ.
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      10-18-2018, 07:36 AM   #50
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Ahh I see your point... This has nothing to do with Democrats or the left; yet everything to do with Republicans. Gotcha champ.
Nice, as usual ignore everything else and focus on a one liner sound bite just like partisans from the right and left. I know it sucks to get duped doesn't it?

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      10-18-2018, 07:42 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Ahh I see your point... This has nothing to do with Democrats or the left; yet everything to do with Republicans. Gotcha champ.
I know it sucks to get duped doesn't it?
I do not think duped means what you think it means. Maybe you do. Humm.
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      10-18-2018, 08:01 AM   #52
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Two, because the Republicans spent the entire Obama administration screaming about deficits and threatening to shut the government down over even raising the debt limit ceiling. This helped get guys like Ryan and FMC members elected whose supposed whole mission was to bring down the deficit and spending.
Alright, Minn - you are on the right track to making some very good points, but check the mirror because your partisanship is showing.

This statement is exactly correct - they did rail against overspending and now in power, they have done little to curtail it and should be chastised for it. There were several items that did need budgetary increases, such as specific military and border security items, however, these should have been matched by greater cuts in funding from places that the federal government has no business spending money, such as the endowment for the arts, etc - but they weren't. It is shameful.




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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
How can you say there is no appetite for it when they got elected with this being a major part of their platform?
This is the catch-22, isn't it? Many of the vocal citizens say they want spending cuts and demand the republicans enact them to stay in office, but once any congressman proposes spending cuts in any area, those same people who rallied for the cuts realize they are going to stop getting certain government goodies and change their tune. So yes, it is why they got elected - or at least in part - but there is also no realistic appetite for the budget cuts - most American people are stupid in this way. It is sad.




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I also agree the left and most Dems aren't fiscally responsible
Um, most Dems? Let's all be honest here - it is all Dems. Seriously, name one single Democrat Congressman or Senator that rails against government spending and encourages substantial reductions in spending and wants a balanced budget? Just one. I'll wait.
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      10-18-2018, 08:09 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
Alright, Minn - you are on the right track to making some very good points, but check the mirror because your partisanship is showing.

This statement is exactly correct - they did rail against overspending and now in power, they have done little to curtail it and should be chastised for it. There were several items that did need budgetary increases, such as specific military and border security items, however, these should have been matched by greater cuts in funding from places that the federal government has no business spending money, such as the endowment for the arts, etc - but they weren't. It is shameful.






This is the catch-22, isn't it? Many of the vocal citizens say they want spending cuts and demand the republicans enact them to stay in office, but once any congressman proposes spending cuts in any area, those same people who rallied for the cuts realize they are going to stop getting certain government goodies and change their tune. So yes, it is why they got elected - or at least in part - but there is also no realistic appetite for the budget cuts - most American people are stupid in this way. It is sad.






Um, most Dems? Let's all be honest here - it is all Dems. Seriously, name one single Democrat Congressman or Senator that rails against government spending and encourages substantial reductions in spending and wants a balanced budget? Just one. I'll wait.
How is my partisanship showing? I have no real love for either party at this point. I said most (don't have time to look it up right now), but I generally don't like absolutes so I'm sure there are a few fiscally responsible Democrats out there.

If they did it, they would just do it differently. Off the top of my head they would raise taxes and cut things like defence etc, although that hasn't really happened with Dems in a long time. The Republicans would like to cut social programs and lower taxes. But, right now they want to increase spending and lower taxes, which as we've seen doesn't work out very well. Neither party has any semblance of what they used to really stand for at this point IMO.

But, right now it is about the budget and we have the first hard numbers as to how this current crop of Republicans is trying to tackle the problem and it obviously isn't working out well. And with a President that wants to enact some very very large public works programs (wall/infrastructure) the current outlook looks even worse. Again, by a party filled with a supposed very vocal budget/deficit hawks.

Edit: I agree people/voters are generally stupid and tend to vote very much against what they think they are voting for. I'm guessing you and I differ very much though as to who does and why.
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      10-18-2018, 08:40 AM   #54
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How is my partisanship showing? I have no real love for either party at this point. I said most (don't have time to look it up right now), but I generally don't like absolutes so I'm sure there are a few fiscally responsible Democrats out there.
Fair response with respect to the partisanship comment. I can understand reservations about absolutes. I still put out there, however, that there is likely none or maybe 1 or 2 at most out of every single Democrat Senator and Congressman who has even one iota of fiscal responsibility in their genes. That was what I meant when I was hitting back at the 'most dems' comment. Realistically, if we want to avoid absolutes, then perhaps "nearly all" or "all but a few" etc would have been more appropriate.




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If they did it, they would just do it differently. Off the top of my head they would raise taxes and cut things like defence etc,
They probably would - although I believe they would raise taxes exponentially, slash defense spending, and increase other spending by 10 fold whatever the defense cuts were and what the extra taxes are bringing in. They really are not any better than the Republicans. As I said on page one, both parties, when they are out of power, rail against the debt and deficits. Both parties, when they are in power, increase the debt and deficits.




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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Neither party has any semblance of what they used to really stand for at this point IMO.
What does the Democrat party actually stand for these days, and I am not being condescending, I really don't know. Not what all the baloney says on the DNC websites and the like - but what do they honestly want to accomplish in office if elected, other than 'Impeach Trump and Kavanaugh'?




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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I agree people/voters are generally stupid and tend to vote very much against what they think they are voting for. I'm guessing you and I differ very much though as to who does and why.
Probably not, in all honesty. I think voters on both sides of the political spectrum tend to vote very much against what they think they are voting for.
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      10-18-2018, 08:45 AM   #55
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Fair response with respect to the partisanship comment. I can understand reservations about absolutes. I still put out there, however, that there is likely none or maybe 1 or 2 at most out of every single Democrat Senator and Congressman who has even one iota of fiscal responsibility in their genes. That was what I meant when I was hitting back at the 'most dems' comment. Realistically, if we want to avoid absolutes, then perhaps "nearly all" or "all but a few" etc would have been more appropriate.






They probably would - although I believe they would raise taxes exponentially, slash defense spending, and increase other spending by 10 fold whatever the defense cuts were and what the extra taxes are bringing in. They really are not any better than the Republicans. As I said on page one, both parties, when they are out of power, rail against the debt and deficits. Both parties, when they are in power, increase the debt and deficits.






What does the Democrat party actually stand for these days, and I am not being condescending, I really don't know. Not what all the baloney says on the DNC websites and the like - but what do they honestly want to accomplish in office if elected, other than 'Impeach Trump and Kavanaugh'?






Probably not, in all honesty. I think voters on both sides of the political spectrum tend to vote very much against what they think they are voting for.
I have no idea what the Dems stand for, just as I have no idea what the Repubs stand for either. It isn't fiscal responsibility anymore that is for sure.
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      10-18-2018, 09:18 AM   #56
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Just curious, but who gets to decide if your deficit increased or decreases?

If one party controls the presidency, senate and house are they not completely if not largely in control of this? If so then how can anyone defend the republicans on this matter, and if not how can it be a partisan issue measured by who is in power?

I know with my government two things are true 1.) The government in power gets to decide and 2.) all sides spend equally, but just on different things.
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      10-18-2018, 09:40 AM   #57
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Just curious, but who gets to decide if your deficit increased or decreases?

If one party controls the presidency, senate and house are they not completely if not largely in control of this? If so then how can anyone defend the republicans on this matter, and if not how can it be a partisan issue measured by who is in power?

I know with my government two things are true 1.) The government in power gets to decide and 2.) all sides spend equally, but just on different things.
It is essentially the same here. I think they needed some Dem votes to pass it, but not many IIRC.
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      10-18-2018, 10:43 AM   #58
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It is essentially the same here. I think they needed some Dem votes to pass it, but not many IIRC.
Ok, so the increase it squarely on the shoulders of Trump and the republicans. Hard for Trump supporter to call democrats spenders when a government completely controlled by them increases it even further.

Examples like this show why a.) following a party blindly no matter what is stupid and b.) both sides of political parties suck and therefore there is no logical reason to put party before country and spend so much time point fingers.

Hypocrisy at its finest.
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      10-18-2018, 11:00 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Sassicaia View Post
Just curious, but who gets to decide if your deficit increased or decreases?

If one party controls the presidency, senate and house are they not completely if not largely in control of this? If so then how can anyone defend the republicans on this matter, and if not how can it be a partisan issue measured by who is in power?

I know with my government two things are true 1.) The government in power gets to decide and 2.) all sides spend equally, but just on different things.
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Originally Posted by Sassicaia View Post
Ok, so the increase it squarely on the shoulders of Trump and the republicans. Hard for Trump supporter to call democrats spenders when a government completely controlled by them increases it even further.

Examples like this show why a.) following a party blindly no matter what is stupid and b.) both sides of political parties suck and therefore there is no logical reason to put party before country and spend so much time point fingers.

Hypocrisy at its finest.
you need 60% to pass a budget.

rarely do you get a 60% control in one party, so it has to be a joint effort to get the budget done. This is why there are always concessions when it comes to the budget as far as what pet projects get budgeted in.
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      10-18-2018, 11:01 AM   #60
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you need 60% to pass a budget.

rarely do you get a 60% control in one party, so it has to be a joint effort to get the budget done. This is why there are always concessions when it comes to the budget as far as what pet projects get budgeted in.
No way those concessions are to blame for a ballooning number like that.

Also, "art of the deal"?
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      10-18-2018, 11:04 AM   #61
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you need 60% to pass a budget.

rarely do you get a 60% control in one party, so it has to be a joint effort to get the budget done. This is why there are always concessions when it comes to the budget as far as what pet projects get budgeted in.
No way those concessions are to blame for a ballooning number like that.

Also, "art of the deal"?
Reagan got budgets passed in a DEMOCRATIC house.
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      10-18-2018, 11:23 AM   #62
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It is essentially the same here. I think they needed some Dem votes to pass it, but not many IIRC.
Ok, so the increase it squarely on the shoulders of Trump and the republicans. Hard for Trump supporter to call democrats spenders when a government completely controlled by them increases it even further.

Examples like this show why a.) following a party blindly no matter what is stupid and b.) both sides of political parties suck and therefore there is no logical reason to put party before country and spend so much time point fingers.

Hypocrisy at its finest.
It's just hard for any congressional Democrat to point fingers as to excessive Republican spending while they're supporting massive increases in spending. The right may be selling out their principals, but the left doesn't have any ground to stand on and criticize.

Keep in mind the "future" of the Democrat party (thinking: Cortez) is proposing adding $3 TRILLION a year in social program spending. For perspective, total US revenues for 2018 is "only" $3.35 trillion!

Pardon me for not taking any criticism of spending from the left seriously. Talk about hypocrisy.
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      10-18-2018, 11:42 AM   #63
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No way those concessions are to blame for a ballooning number like that.

Also, "art of the deal"?
The actual deficit growth has slowed under the republican control congress and presidency.

it will almost always go up, since thats what america does.
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      10-18-2018, 11:53 AM   #64
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It's just hard for any congressional Democrat to point fingers as to excessive Republican spending while they're supporting massive increases in spending. The right may be selling out their principals, but the left doesn't have any ground to stand on and criticize.

Keep in mind the "future" of the Democrat party (thinking: Cortez) is proposing adding $3 TRILLION a year in social program spending. For perspective, total US revenues for 2018 is "only" $3.35 trillion!

Pardon me for not taking any criticism of spending from the left seriously. Talk about hypocrisy.
So to concluded. The lft spends like crazy and are hypocrites because the point the fingers at right for spending, and the right has been pointing the finger at the left for the last 8 years before trump, now that they are in power they are hypocites for doing exactly what they were critical of during the obama years.

This is why its stupid to blindly follow a political party as they currently are. Same shit in my country. You need to be critical of who ever is in power regardless if you voted for them or not.

Seems like once people vote for someone they let them do what ever they want and defend them for it. Sheep mentality.
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      10-18-2018, 11:54 AM   #65
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The actual deficit growth has slowed under the republican control congress and presidency.

it will almost always go up, since thats what america does.
So you're saying that someone who was critical or rape is just raping less?
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      10-18-2018, 12:30 PM   #66
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So you're saying that someone who was critical or rape is just raping less?
try again but make sense this time
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