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      07-14-2017, 04:37 PM   #67
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The Tesla fanboy presence is strong in this thread. I've read enough threads on this subject and it typically goes as follows:

Tesla Fanboy: **SMUGLY** Tesla and EV's are the future. ICE's and dino fuel are ruining the worlddddd. It's over.

Normal Person: I commend Tesla, everyone loves a real life Tony Stark... but why do we need EV's again?? You realize that we have more oil reserves under the US than anywhere in the world and the US is moving to be a net exporter of our oil/gas? And if you're concerned about the environmental consequences, you understand that natural gas cuts CO2 emissions by 20% vs gasoline? Why aren't you just pushing more towards natural gas usage in vehicles??

TFB: Yah, butttt... autonomous vehicles are the FUTURE.

NP: You're sidestepping now. Vehicle autonomy is not reliant on EV in the least bit. Tesla may be one of the (many) companies leading the charge, but AV can be used in a EV, ICE... hell, I'm sure it could even be engineered to work on a horse and buggy!

TFB: Yahhhh... but the P100X in captain insano mode can crusshhh any new production car in the 1/4 miles.

NP: ....

TFB: Andddd its a 4 door famly car!!!!! See its da futurrre!!!

NP ... I think we're done here.


And while I kid and poke fun at those bullish on Tesla... I think Musk is a fascinating dude. I hope Tesla is successful (I mean that). But please do so by growing your company as a COMPLIMENT to the existing competition vs a REPLACEMENT. He would get far more buy in from us "old timers" (34 years old lol) by doing so.
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      07-14-2017, 05:00 PM   #68
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The hate is amazing. It's truly the fear of the undiscovered country. The above post makes several incorrect assumptions and references, but it doesn't matter, people are afraid because it's different, because the world is changing. The true genius is that electric doesn't matter what the power station does to make power.
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      07-14-2017, 08:05 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
The hate is amazing. It's truly the fear of the undiscovered country. The above post makes several incorrect assumptions and references, but it doesn't matter, people are afraid because it's different, because the world is changing. The true genius is that electric doesn't matter what the power station does to make power.
Please explain.
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      07-14-2017, 10:11 PM   #70
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ICE will be around for a while and many people love how ICE cars respond. Likely there will be a lot more hybrids instead of ICE disappearing or EV taking over.

There's no need to stereotype that Tesla drivers are all at one extreme or BMW drivers at another extreme. What Tesla has accomplished is making an amazing vehicle that exceeds other brands in many important areas such as technology and driving dynamics (depending on tastes).

Competition is good. Propels all companies to make better cars. That's good for me.
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      07-14-2017, 11:04 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by sirdaft1 View Post
Please explain.
You started out insulting other people, not to mention your attempt to stereotype them into the categories that you have created, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. You bring up natural gas, but you mistakenly believe that the combustion has to take place inside your car's engine. It's not even worth it to attempt to explain to you any further.
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      07-15-2017, 01:42 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
The hate is amazing. It's truly the fear of the undiscovered country. The above post makes several incorrect assumptions and references, but it doesn't matter, people are afraid because it's different, because the world is changing. The true genius is that electric doesn't matter what the power station does to make power.
Why do tesla people have this attitude? This is not how I feel or anyone else i know who isn't on the EV bandwagon. I and all my friends and everyone I know just want the best car. Ev isnt mature yet. It isnt a superior alternative either. Its an "alternative" Pure and simple. It has no benefits over ice except immediate torque and debatably environmental friendly. Autonomous can be done with any car. It's something tesla pushed because it's gimmicky gadgety and appeals to the techno nerd crowd just like the ugly iPad touchscreen, but it's not ev only, and frankly I like driving. I do not want someone or something doing it for me. But it's just another option on any car like automatic high beams.

The reason i don't like ev cars is they don't do the job as well. They were appealing when Obama jacked up oil prices to make them appealing to push his at the time global warming agenda. Now they came down because the market corrected his efforts and global warming is now climate change because the warming evidence is dubious at best and you can point a finger at any storm and say climate change so it's a safer way to bs.

They aren't now economical. They only were when gas was $4 And the government threw $7500 of my money at the sticker price. You will now save thousands buying an ice car over the time of ownership including fuel costs. Try selling an ev to a family making 50k a year by saying you need to spend thousands more, 10s of thousands more up front because it's the future. You can't. And that's the average household now on the US. They'll buy their 20k camry and be happy.

They don't perform any better, except 0-60 a couple times. In most cases they're worse.

They don't refuel as rapidly. They don't have the range. They don't tow. They don't offroad well. On and on. Are they a viable commuter vehicle? Yes. Do i only use a car for a daily commute? No. Many people don't have the luxury of having more than one car. What do they do then?

As far as wide acceptance by the general public, a car needs to bring to the table equal or better attributes and abilities. They don't which is why they've been on sale for a decade and still only comprise a fraction of one percent of worldwide car sales.

Do they have a niche? Yes. Will they improve? Yes. Will they surpass ice cars in all these categories or at least tie them any time soon? No. At the same time also, remember ice cars will be improving too. Compare a 335i today to a 330 20 yrs ago. Night and day difference.

So no, I'm not against new tech. I'm not a hater. I'm not a caveman who wants his rock. I'm not antitech. I just don't care to believe the marketing hype they are using to push these things, and from a sales standpoint, neither is the general public.
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      07-15-2017, 02:11 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirdaft1 View Post
The Tesla fanboy presence is strong in this thread. I've read enough threads on this subject and it typically goes as follows:

Tesla Fanboy: **SMUGLY** Tesla and EV's are the future. ICE's and dino fuel are ruining the worlddddd. It's over.

Normal Person: I commend Tesla, everyone loves a real life Tony Stark... but why do we need EV's again?? You realize that we have more oil reserves under the US than anywhere in the world and the US is moving to be a net exporter of our oil/gas? And if you're concerned about the environmental consequences, you understand that natural gas cuts CO2 emissions by 20% vs gasoline? Why aren't you just pushing more towards natural gas usage in vehicles??

TFB: Yah, butttt... autonomous vehicles are the FUTURE.

NP: You're sidestepping now. Vehicle autonomy is not reliant on EV in the least bit. Tesla may be one of the (many) companies leading the charge, but AV can be used in a EV, ICE... hell, I'm sure it could even be engineered to work on a horse and buggy!

TFB: Yahhhh... but the P100X in captain insano mode can crusshhh any new production car in the 1/4 miles.

NP: ....

TFB: Andddd its a 4 door famly car!!!!! See its da futurrre!!!

NP ... I think we're done here.


And while I kid and poke fun at those bullish on Tesla... I think Musk is a fascinating dude. I hope Tesla is successful (I mean that). But please do so by growing your company as a COMPLIMENT to the existing competition vs a REPLACEMENT. He would get far more buy in from us "old timers" (34 years old lol) by doing so.
+1 to everything said here.

I love the concept, and would love a Tesla (p120 thanks Elon if you are reading this) ... but it isn't a binary choice.
Elon Musk is a brilliant mind and a disrupter who is changing the world for the better. But I reckon there is the possibility of an even greener technology out there to move us around.

Oh, and can we forget about Mars and just fix earth? Thanks
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      07-15-2017, 02:40 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
.....They'll buy their 20k camry and be happy....
That was a great speech but with the new 10th generation of Honda Accord announced today. It's Honda all the way!
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      07-15-2017, 05:52 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seedyrom View Post
+1 to everything said here.

I love the concept, and would love a Tesla (p120 thanks Elon if you are reading this) ... but it isn't a binary choice.
Elon Musk is a brilliant mind and a disrupter who is changing the world for the better. But I reckon there is the possibility of an even greener technology out there to move us around.

Oh, and can we forget about Mars and just fix earth? Thanks
Can we forget about autonomous driving and just teach (i.e. force) people to drive better. Have real, rigorous tests for vehicle control and traffic situational awareness. And the ones that can't learn, let them telecommute.
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      07-15-2017, 06:20 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
The hate is amazing. It's truly the fear of the undiscovered country. The above post makes several incorrect assumptions and references, but it doesn't matter, people are afraid because it's different, because the world is changing. The true genius is that electric doesn't matter what the power station does to make power.
Why do you have to classify it as "hate". It's just opinion based on observation with a bit of sarcasm thrown in to make it interesting. Poking a little fun at fanboys. Not a big deal.

I don't think anyone here, us car enthusiasts, is afraid of EVs, and especially because they are "different". I'm as big a car enthusiast as anyone here, and I've loved the experience of the several electric cars I've driven so far, but...

But they are still not practical in both use and economics in the US for a single-car household, even with 300 mile range and supercharger stations strewn across the country (Tesla); or DC fast charge stations (Volt, Bolt, Leaf etc.). EVs are range limited and refueling-time limited to replace the internal combustion engine. Sorry, but BEVs are not going to replace the ICE-powered vehicle. EV (Tesla fans) fail to realize that passenger cars are not the only ICE-powered vehicles on the planet. Planes, large trucks, pickup trucks (a few million are sold in the US each year), and local delivery trucks all will never be converted to BEV because the energy storage capacity of petroleum is far denser than any battery will ever be. So while those vehicles need to be in the public fleet (especially commercial aircraft) natural gas, gasoline, diesel, and jet fuel will be the fuels of choice because it is inexpensive and are all made from the same manufacturing infrastructure. Commercial air flight will keep gasoline cars viable for a long time in the future because economics will dictate it so. The main disruptive force that is making BEVs anywhere near viable in the market (it's up to 3% now world wide) is due to Government legislation and the hologram that is globalwarmingclimatechange.

If I were leading the future of the automobile, I'd put my R&D towards a hybrid drivetrain similar to the Volt, but with a highly efficient conversion of gasoline into electricity (i.e. not by a traditional internal combustion engine) and a bank of super-capacitors rather than a chemical battery. However, burning of carbon is being legislated out of existence, so ideas such as what I've just stated, will sadly get little to no R&D funding. The petroleum-powered electric hybrid drivetrain engineers well into all types of vehicles except commercial aircraft, yet uses that same source of energy storage as aircraft, just far more efficiently. It also requires no change in the infrastructure of energy delivery (i.e. gas stations) as does a mass change to plug-in electric vehicles (electric grid capacity expansion), or hydrogen powered vehicles.

Now was any of that hate speech?
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Last edited by Efthreeoh; 07-15-2017 at 06:34 AM.
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      07-15-2017, 07:26 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
The true genius is that electric doesn't matter what the power station does to make power.
That is indeed its strong point.
But it also is its most difficult accomplishment.

Making an electric car (what I mean is: the electric drive) isnt difficult at all, we could do that in the 60's. A normal tramcart has an electric motor thats about 14x16" and makes 700hp.
The difficult part is finding the energy source that is small enough, has enough stamina and is easily/fast replenishable. Thats what all the research is about. not the electric motor.
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      07-15-2017, 07:38 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Can we forget about autonomous driving and just teach (i.e. force) people to drive better. Have real, rigorous tests for vehicle control and traffic situational awareness. And the ones that can't learn, let them telecommute.
But... why the hate of EV!?!

I could not agree more. It's like the government has given up when it comes to continued drivers education. I remember taking a one semester course almost 20 years ago when I was 15, then one "final exam" the day I turned 16 at the DMV... nothing since. Good news is, driving as we know it/texting/the laws/vehicle speed potential certainly hasn't changed over those 20 years

That said, the current state of drivers on the road is ridiculous. The constant texting and lack of situational awareness is a nightmare. My wife comments that I may be more on the aggressive side of driving (read: very different from wreckless or angry). That means I pay attention. I would MUCH rather drivers like myself who can respond quickly to situations, than some person cruising the fast lane on the highway going 5 under while a trail of 10 cars rides her bumper because she's completely oblivious. Or my favorite, the person parked at a fresh green light because they are head down in their phone texting and oblivious to their surroundings.

Can autonomous vehicles assist with getting oblivious persons like this out of the drivers seat? Absolutely. But that seems like a very long and expensive answer to what should be a very simple solution. It would be like saying 40 years ago when drinking and driving was commonplace... "Lots of people like drinking and driving, who are we to stop them? Let's heavily subsidize Taxi's to make them THE future for those who are irresponsible, while taking away the freedom to drive from those who are responsible."

It's absurd, but appears to be the argument I hear coming down the pipeline for AV tech. The reality is you enact proper legislation paired with education to curb that behavior. Will there still be bad eggs breaking the law? ABSOLUTELY. Thats why you enforce consequences and deal with those individuals on a case by case basis. **off soapbox**
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      07-15-2017, 10:19 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
That is indeed its strong point.
But it also is its most difficult accomplishment.

Making an electric car (what I mean is: the electric drive) isnt difficult at all, we could do that in the 60's. A normal tramcart has an electric motor thats about 14x16" and makes 700hp.
The difficult part is finding the energy source that is small enough, has enough stamina and is easily/fast replenishable. Thats what all the research is about. not the electric motor.
No one is arguing about battery capacity, but it has reached a practical level with Tesla, which is why those cars got on the road in the first place. Before that, it was science fiction.

Although there would need to be serious upgrades for "everyone" to use electric cars, some of the huge benefits are that there already IS infrastructure in place, as compared to hydrogen, or natural gas, etc. These are either tiny to non-existent in terms of infrastructure and distribution, when compared to straight gasoline or electricity. Here's the thing, we spend lots of money, waste lots of energy, trucking around gas, in ships, in trucks, storing it in tanks, building new gas stations, manning those gas stations, etc. We not only need gas for our cars, but for all those things that they require, the ships, the trucks, everything else.

Think about all the things the petroleum could then be used for, military flight training, navy patrols, etc. Right now, many of those things are pulled way back and fuel is one of the number one issues.
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      07-15-2017, 10:25 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirdaft1 View Post
But... why the hate of EV!?!

I could not agree more. It's like the government has given up when it comes to continued drivers education. I remember taking a one semester course almost 20 years ago when I was 15, then one "final exam" the day I turned 16 at the DMV... nothing since. Good news is, driving as we know it/texting/the laws/vehicle speed potential certainly hasn't changed over those 20 years

This is because you've prioritized other things with the government, like lower taxes, defense, spending more on other areas, etc. You can't have everything at once, it's impossible. And when I say "you", I mean the entirety of the population, not you individually. You want the government to do what people are unwilling to do themselves, how is that even supposed to work?

People want self-driving cars, not by their words, but by their actions. We have raised generations of subdivision-dwelling people that have been taught that they are more important than anyone else and that they need to make a bunch of kids and that their life's worth is judged based on how much stuff they own and what they can enjoy while sitting around and doing nothing sitting on their a$$. So it's no surprise people are on their phones constantly and texting and driving while face-timing. It's getting to the point where this is the majority of the drivers, not a small minority.

I guess, my point is, before you go trying to blame "the government" for this, what have YOU done about it? (just a general question to anyone who is concerned about distracted drivers)
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      07-15-2017, 10:34 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post

I don't think anyone here, us car enthusiasts, is afraid of EVs, and especially because they are "different". I'm as big a car enthusiast as anyone here, and I've loved the experience of the several electric cars I've driven so far, but...


...But they are still not practical

Consciously, I would say people aren't aware they are afraid.

Subconsciously, they are terrified.



All we constantly hear is about how it'll never work, it'll fail, they are going under, no one will ever produce them, they won't be able to drive, they won't be able to charge, the batteries will die, etc. They try to throw up a million reasons why it can't work, yet, they are out there, working. For everyone? Is a Panamera Turbo S for everyone? Is a Kia Soul for everyone? Heck no, so that holds about as much water as a dry lake.

Is it practical? Of course, for those that are using it, it's 100% practical. Otherwise, they wouldn't be using it.
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      07-15-2017, 11:04 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
No one is arguing about battery capacity, but it has reached a practical level with Tesla, which is why those cars got on the road in the first place. Before that, it was science fiction.

Although there would need to be serious upgrades for "everyone" to use electric cars, some of the huge benefits are that there already IS infrastructure in place, as compared to hydrogen, or natural gas, etc. These are either tiny to non-existent in terms of infrastructure and distribution, when compared to straight gasoline or electricity. Here's the thing, we spend lots of money, waste lots of energy, trucking around gas, in ships, in trucks, storing it in tanks, building new gas stations, manning those gas stations, etc. We not only need gas for our cars, but for all those things that they require, the ships, the trucks, everything else.

Think about all the things the petroleum could then be used for, military flight training, navy patrols, etc. Right now, many of those things are pulled way back and fuel is one of the number one issues.
Those things were pulled back for 2 reasons. Fuel supply is not one of them.
1 fuel for the military was mandated to be "green" renewable fuel by Obama. This means the military jets now need to use $700 a gallon fuel.
2. Budget the military budget was cut way back. They cut costs by cutting everything including money for fuel

The world is awash in gas. There's tankers waiting to dock because there's no more storage capacity on land. Supplies will last out lifetime plus way more. Techniques are being developed to extend this for hundreds of years if not indefinitely.

As for the infrastructure you compared it to hydrogen, etc. You didn't compare it to petroleum. It's an invalid argument.
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      07-15-2017, 12:18 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
some of the huge benefits are that there already IS infrastructure in place, as compared to hydrogen, or natural gas, etc.
That remains to be seen.
Sure everyone has an electricitypoint to their house, but when people start to use EV as their transport (batterycharged) you see that their electricityuse is rising with sometimes 300-400%.
For one or two homes in a street thats no problem, but if everyone is doing that the complete electricitydistribution network needs to be expanded in capacity with that same rise in powerdemand. So all cables that run underground need to be replaced/expanded by much much thicker ones.
A big plus in this is that much people might take the decision to charge overnight, a time that electricitydemand is usually at a low point and normal electricitypowerplants have a surplus. That might also change with more green energysources as both windmills and solar panels generate less electricity at night (there's usually less wind at night, the solarpanels speak for themselves)
Also in cities where lots of people dont have their own parkingspace on their property there need to come lots and lots of rechargingposts.
So there are still a lot of hurdles to take on that matter, outside of the public view.

As for natural gas, in my country virtually every house has a natural gas connection so here that would be less of a problem but most countries dont have that, so globally thats not really an option.
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      07-15-2017, 12:43 PM   #84
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And don't forget the us power grid itself is past nominal capacity and strained. It will have to go through a massive and expensive overhaul from power stations, substations, lines, etc to handle a meaningful number of ev cars.
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      07-16-2017, 08:38 AM   #85
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And don't forget the us power grid itself is past nominal capacity and strained. It will have to go through a massive and expensive overhaul from power stations, substations, lines, etc to handle a meaningful number of ev cars.
It will take decades to upgrade the grid to support mass EV use. I'd propose that by the time the grid is upgraded, the propulsion technology will have moved on.

Or, I guess, the counter argument is that with EV's comes autonomous driving, so the Envrio-fantasy will be a massive reduction in total vehicles on the road because we'll all just summon a pod to come and pick is up, which will reduce the need for charging capacity from the grid...

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      07-16-2017, 09:39 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Consciously, I would say people aren't aware they are afraid.

Subconsciously, they are terrified.




All we constantly hear is about how it'll never work, it'll fail, they are going under, no one will ever produce them, they won't be able to drive, they won't be able to charge, the batteries will die, etc. They try to throw up a million reasons why it can't work, yet, they are out there, working. For everyone? Is a Panamera Turbo S for everyone? Is a Kia Soul for everyone? Heck no, so that holds about as much water as a dry lake.

Is it practical? Of course, for those that are using it, it's 100% practical. Otherwise, they wouldn't be using it.
No flame meant.. but what in the hell does that mean? Subconsciously terrified? Terrified about what? I don't think anyone is terrified about a propulsion technology that could be better than the current ICE system if it can become the replacement technology via equivalent convenience, performance and ownership cost.

I for one have seriously looked at the Chevy Bolt to replace my E90 as my daily driver (175 miles a day) for the following reasons:

1) The total cost of ownership works out to be on par with a similar-class ICE equivalent. But taking $7,500 of the price off via the EV tax incentive is what makes the economics work. Once the $7,500 goes away, it might be difficult to maintain EV sales with fuel prices at the current level. My

2) I like the performance of the electric motor propulsion system. The torque characteristics of electric motors makes this possible. What I've come to realize is EVs drive like manual transmission'd cars (properly driven MT's ) because even the best ICE automatics are tuned for minimum fuel consumption and are never in the correct gear for aggressive cut-and-thrust driving. The Bolt drives really well; like a hot-hatch. Being that manual transmissions are going away from the market in normal cars (i.e. not performance cars) and everything is now turbo'd for an enthusiast like me, an EV makes sense driving dynamics-wise.

However, for me, a winter's day commute is dicey even with the Bolt's 238-mile range. I'd need a recharge at work during the winter. My company does not see the advantage of adding charging stations to our office complex; I've told HR "good luck with hiring Millennials." I'm ready to present the benefits analysis and the cost to add some EVSE, but Leadership (they love that term) doesn't want to listen (because they are cheap bastards ).

Regarding the "going under" comment. That has to do with Tesla. Looking at the company's finances without the benefit of legislation-led market incentives (i.e. emissions requirements, tax incentives, carbon credits, etc.) Tesla would have died out long ago. I still don't see how Tesla gets $30K of cost out of production of the Model 3 if one considers the investment needed to bring the car to market. Yeah, there looks to be 400,000+ "orders" (really production position) but there are a lot of variables to what the Model 3's market share will probably be. Again, I'm all for Tesla being a success and it's great to see an American company leading the EV charge, but it's not an intrinsic pure market-based economic story. I've read a few business articles that analysis shows Tesla building the Model 3 at less cost and at a profit (barely) than GM can the Bolt (at a loss). I don't believe the analysis.
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      07-16-2017, 10:07 AM   #87
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But... why the hate of EV!?!

I could not agree more. It's like the government has given up when it comes to continued drivers education. I remember taking a one semester course almost 20 years ago when I was 15, then one "final exam" the day I turned 16 at the DMV... nothing since. Good news is, driving as we know it/texting/the laws/vehicle speed potential certainly hasn't changed over those 20 years

That said, the current state of drivers on the road is ridiculous. The constant texting and lack of situational awareness is a nightmare. My wife comments that I may be more on the aggressive side of driving (read: very different from wreckless or angry). That means I pay attention. I would MUCH rather drivers like myself who can respond quickly to situations, than some person cruising the fast lane on the highway going 5 under while a trail of 10 cars rides her bumper because she's completely oblivious. Or my favorite, the person parked at a fresh green light because they are head down in their phone texting and oblivious to their surroundings.

Can autonomous vehicles assist with getting oblivious persons like this out of the drivers seat? Absolutely. But that seems like a very long and expensive answer to what should be a very simple solution. It would be like saying 40 years ago when drinking and driving was commonplace... "Lots of people like drinking and driving, who are we to stop them? Let's heavily subsidize Taxi's to make them THE future for those who are irresponsible, while taking away the freedom to drive from those who are responsible."

It's absurd, but appears to be the argument I hear coming down the pipeline for AV tech. The reality is you enact proper legislation paired with education to curb that behavior. Will there still be bad eggs breaking the law? ABSOLUTELY. Thats why you enforce consequences and deal with those individuals on a case by case basis. **off soapbox**
I've worked in the engineering/tech field my entire 30+ year career. I've managed the business of making real new tech stuff and advancement of it, so I can say with confidence I understand the engineering mentality. The AV tech advancers are still looking at the "how" and not as much the "why". I'm sure they'll make AV work close to their vision of it, but the functional implementation and cost of it are far from worked out. I keep up on the advancement of AV tech because it interests me and I'm far from a Luddite. It may come to fruition someday, but not anywhere near the time table the AV community thinks. People place far too much confidence in the advancement of technology because there is a new iPhone on the market every 6th months. Remember when the US space program was a goal to populate other planets (Mars). We got to the Moon in just 2 months and 8 years past the time of Kennedy's May '61 declaration. It's been almost 48 years since then, and we've got some excellent rovers on Mars and a bunch of movies about humans living there.

Your drunk-driving analogy is spot on.
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      07-16-2017, 04:07 PM   #88
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No flame meant.. but what in the hell does that mean? Subconsciously terrified? Terrified about what?
Change.
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