To Those that Self-Adjust for Track/Street Alignment

[Boba1214]

Hi guys,

I am thinking about asking the alignment shop to mark off the camber plate and tie rod for both street and track spec so I can adjust it myself since I plan on attending track events a few times a year and also go to the canyons about 2-3 times a month.

After sharing my ask with 3 very reputable alignment shops that also work on modified cars, none of them thought this was a good idea as the alignment will never be perfect even if I realigned the marking (line) on the tie rod to bring car back to street spec after track.

For those that had them marked off, how has your tire wear been since? With all shops not recommending this due to inaccurate, I'm contemplating on whether I should still do this.

My main concern is tire life since I DD my car... Any input appreciated!

[DRLane]

They are correct. I know SYT_Shadow advocates for this idea. Which has merit, but I’m sure the alignment shop is reacting to exactness ( a / thousandth of a degree) and rightfully as that’s not going to hold with constant shifting of camber.

However, there’s value in the general toe in / toe out. So does it need to be so accurate?

But if the intention is to adjust camber to mitigate wear. Those toe settings aren’t helping and you’re going to accelerate replacement with marginal gain on track.

I’d argue until you’re hunting for 10ths, neutral front toe, get a endurance tire, and lap it. Put the tire $$$ into instruction either local or via data/video review.

Having better turn in at entry doesn’t mean much for 95% or the HPDE attendees.

[SYT_Shadow]

For starters, I think everyone should do what they want when it comes to alignments, and everything else. Opinions are like a-holes...you know the saying.

I'm not sure where the extreme accuracy requirement comes from. If you adjust your camber to 3.1 instead of 3.0, does anyone think that makes a difference?
Likewise the toe, if you were going for 0.4 toe out with -3 camber and put -3.2 camber by accident, are people really worried about toe being 0.43 out?

Race cars are aligned constantly to ensure the alignment is spot on. I hope that whoever loses sleep at night thinking that they may adjust to -2.9 or -3.1 and their toe/camber is all out of whack and instead chooses to do a static, compromise alignment setting, well I sure hope they're realigning the car frequently!

I've put tens of thousands of street miles driving to and from tracks with the dual marks on the camber plates method, and get great (but not perfect) wear on both street and track tires. My street tires age out with plenty of tread left, and my track tires lose all grip before they cord. Ask around for others' experience that have used my spreadsheet, it really isn't rocket science.
Since 2015 or so, every year, 20k street miles between the two track cars. Does anyone else do that much street driving on their track cars?

I have had plenty of frustrating experiences with alignment shops' unsolicited advice, which sounds a lot like your experience. That just is what it is

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

For starters, I think everyone should do what they want when it comes to alignments, and everything else. Opinions are like a-holes...you know the saying.

I'm not sure where the extreme accuracy requirement comes from. If you adjust your camber to 3.1 instead of 3.0, does anything think that makes a difference?
Likewise the toe, if you were going for 0.4 toe out with -3 camber and put -3.2 camber by accident, are people really worried about toe being 0.43 out?

Race cars are aligned constantly to ensure the alignment is spot on. I hope that whoever loses sleep at night thinking that they may adjust to -2.9 or -3.1 and their toe/camber is all out of whack and instead chooses to do a static, compromise alignment setting, well I sure hope they're realigning the car frequently!

I've put tens of thousands of street miles driving to and from tracks with the dual marks on the camber plates method, and get great (but not perfect) wear on both street and track tires. My street tires age out with plenty of tread left, and my track tires lose all grip before they cord. Ask around for others' experience that have used my spreadsheet, it really isn't rocket science.

I have had plenty of frustrating experiences with alignment shops' unsolicited advice, which sounds a lot like your experience. That just is what it is

[DRLane]

I updated my response, and I was only @ing you SYT_Shadow to ensure you could jump in. Not to be controversial. “Advocating more than pushing”

But yes, the document is hyper specific which is what I’m sure the alignment shop was reacting to when suggesting a Sharpie marked camber plate would recreate said toe.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by DRLane

I updated my response, and I was only @ing you SYT_Shadow to ensure you could jump in. Not to be controversial. “Advocating more than pushing”

But yes, the document is hyper specific which is what I’m sure the alignment shop was reacting to when suggesting a Sharpie marked camber plate would recreate said toe.

Thats a good point. It should probably just say 0.4 and 0.3 instead of all the decimals

[leftfootbr8king]

I got my own string alignment setup and because of curiousity I’ve tried more than a half dozen different setups in regard to caster/camber/toe.

it is possible to get toe dialed to the 1/32” per side and achieve specific/identical camber settings to the tenth degree, if you want them (it strokes a certain part of my smooth brain)

I’ve also done the “mark the plates” setup in question on both mine and a friends car just to see what kind of repeatability is possible.

When you etch specific marks onto your plates you can slide the plates back and forth between marks and maintain toe to within a 1/16” per side while camber will settle repeatedly within .1 degrees (which is even smaller than .1 degrees looks).

[leftfootbr8king]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Thats a good point. It should probably just say 0.4 and 0.3 instead of all the decimals

For those who didn’t know: 1/16” of toe is equal to .07 degrees (on a 25.5” tall tire)

Degrees are used by most alignment shops because the measurement is independent of tire height.

[DRLane]

leftfootbr8king Of course you can get aligned within the initial specs. No one is suggesting you can’t.

It’s that you won’t return the alignment to that spec once adjusting the plates.

[leftfootbr8king]

Originally Posted by DRLane

leftfootbr8king Of course you can get aligned within the initial specs. No one is suggesting you can’t.

It’s that you won’t return the alignment to that spec once adjusting the plates.

I think I wasn’t clear.

The part where I said “you can slide the plates back and forth” meant you can set them to one mark, drive, lift the car, slide them to the other mark, set the car down, settle the suspension/drive, and measure.

The toe measurements will be within 1/16” (usually to the 32nd”) and camber will come back to within .1 degrees camber of what it was at each mark prior to adjustment.

I know this because I’ve done it, and measured it via strings, a handful of times.

Have you?

[DRLane]

I’ve string aligned my car many many times. I’m intimately familiar with the sensitivity of the setup, process, and measurement locations.

Sorry, I do not believe you’re returning the car to the exactness or a previous spec simply by sliding a camber plate to a “notched” location. Especially not after driving the car around town or a track.

Here’s the setup I use including driver weight bags. I don’t own this, but my car lives at this facility and I have unfettered access to the rack.

[leftfootbr8king]

What I’m understanding from this is while you’re intimately familiar with alignments, “you don’t believe” (an opinion) because you don’t have specific knowledge of testing and measuring this approach.

It’s fine to have an opinion and share that with others. I wanted to share what I know to be facts based on my intimate familiarity with testing and measuring the SYT_Shadow approach to alignments.

There is certainly attention to detail that is required. I suppose if one were to use a fat tip marker on their plates, and close one eye while drunk when making adjustments, it would not return to spec. I’ll give you that.

[leftfootbr8king]

Since you have unfettered access to an alignment setup perhaps you can test as I have and come back to tell me, syt, and everyone else that your direct experience on the matter proves us wrong.

[DRLane]

Yes - I’m saying your experience doesn’t jive with mine. So no, I do not trust your experience. 😬Can you roughly adjust toe with those camber moves. Absolutely yes!

My initial response to this thread was “what’s the best way to manage wear”. Set it neutral and don’t worry about it. Shops are reacting to the adjustment spreadsheet because they too don’t believe the alignment will hold.

I’m on all spherical and solid everything and yet alignments to 1/1000 of a degree require adjustments every time before a track day.

[leftfootbr8king]

Also on solid/spherical everything. Also align to “1/1000” degree (1/32” each side)

Sorry to share/support a tested view conflicting with your beliefs.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by leftfootbr8king

Also on solid/spherical everything. Also align to “1/1000” degree (1/32” each side)

Sorry to share/support a tested view conflicting with your beliefs.

Haha, I’m not saying you can’t share. As Dan already said, opinions…

[leftfootbr8king]

My real world testing, and the results I’ve measured and shared here are hardly an opinion, Devin.

[leftfootbr8king]

One thing that might be helpful to understand: I trailer my car. It doesn’t have to do street miles, but sometimes it does for fun. I can do my own alignments whenever I want and I’m incredibly particular. I don’t NEED Dan’s method of marking plates to work for me.

I tested and measured because I too was a skeptic.

Unlike some, I’m able to admit when facts override “belief”.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by leftfootbr8king

One thing that might be helpful to understand: I trailer my car. It doesn’t have to do street miles, but sometimes it does for fun. I can do my own alignments whenever I want and I’m incredibly particular. I don’t NEED Dan’s method of marking plates to work for me.

I tested and measured because I too was a skeptic.

Unlike some, I’m able to admit when facts override “belief”.

I’m sorry my lack of faith in a random person online is frustrating for you. If you trailer your car I’m surprised you’re swinging camber.

[leftfootbr8king]

Who said I was frustrated? your ego is showing.

All I’m doing is presenting the outcomes I measured from Dan’s alignment methodology, who it appears you also have no faith in.

[DRLane]

Your frustration is evident in the thread. Everyone can read your posts and decide for themselves. Best of luck with your alignments!

[leftfootbr8king]

Likewise! best of luck to the guys you pay to do your alignments and wrench on your car!