Ultimate guide to M-DCT

[MDCTFTW]

Originally Posted by seb

I like the "lag". Actually the lag is a myth created in this forum, that if I wouldn't have read about would have considered a smooth way the car takes off. When I want to go fast, well I push it.

Exactly. Otherwise there would be DCT "jolt" or DCT "harsh start" instead of "lag".

[phoenixbmwlife]

Originally Posted by MDCTFTW

Exactly. Otherwise there would be DCT "jolt" or DCT "harsh start" instead of "lag".

Yo MDCTFTW!!! LOL

[TLud]

First post here, and I'm hoping someone can help me decide whether to join the 6MT or DCT club. I currently have a deposit and order for an E92 M3 in sparkling graphite/black, with DCT, ZTP, ZPP, premium sound, iPod adapter, and moonroof. My order is in status 111, but I need to make a final decision on the tranny soon.

My dealer only had the 6MT available for a test drive, so my only basis for choosing the DCT has been the good reviews that it has received. I really liked the 6MT, which felt almost exactly like the 6MT in my '04 330Ci with the performance package. The clutch action was surprisingly light, but smooth and had consistent engagement. The gear throws, while a little longer than I'd like and not super crisp, had a smooth, well-defined action. I felt very comfortable with it, especially since it's close to what I drove (and enjoyed) with my previous car.

That being said, the many features of the DCT are very appealing, including the likely improved performance over the 6MT. There are also times when it would be nice to be in automatic. Finally, my fiance (wife in two weeks) would prefer the auto mode, although she's willing to learn to drive manual. Anyways, I'm not telling any of you anything you don't already know, so on to my question.

My only real concern with getting the DCT (other than the higher cost) is losing the "fun factor" of rowing your own gears in the 6MT. It's a very engaging experience that really connects you with the car (even when you're only an average driver like me). I've felt like that's been missing in some of the manumatics that I've driven in the past. I'm not so worried about potential reliability problems of the DCT, I'm not worried about slight improvement in performance with one or the other transmission, and I'm not worried about the "lag" issue that keeps coming up. My question to you owners who've previously driven manuals is only whether the DCT gives you that same connection, involvement, engagement, satisfaction, or whatever you want to call it. All thoughts and recommendations are much appreciated.

PS I'm posting my question in this thread because I think the answers will be really useful to anyone else considering the DCT.

[Davo2003]

@TLud

Okay, some will disagree with this but let me try and lay it out for you. I was a dedicated 6MT guy (had a Sport Pkg 06 330i) and loved it. I took a chance and ordered the DCT, after 3K miles I sold it not only due to the strange lags in power delivery but occasional loss of throttle response (diving during u-turns when giving it gas) etc. Plus I had to get a whole new tranny as BMW toasted my first one through the fluid snafu.

My experiences with the DCT ranged from exhilaration to extreme disappointment. My biggest gripe is the inability to feather the clutch and put power to the rear wheels predictably. The only time, and I mean the ONLY time I could get power to the rear wheels under hard acceleration from a stand still was using launch control. I had the car in D5 one time and an AMG CL55 pulled up next to me. Well, I punched it, he punched it, he took off immediately I sat there until the revs hit 5K then the clutch automatically dumped and off I went to get a better look at his taillights. Had I had the TIME to push all the friggin buttons it takes to activate LC, I would have taken off as he did. But this just shouldn't be the case. Another glitch I experienced was while in auto mode D5 if I nail the accelerator the tranny shifts out EARLY...at 6K from 1st to 2nd.

I may have just gotten stuck with two bad trannys, I don't know. There seemed to be so many software issues that I really just couldn't enjoy it although at times, especially on the freeway the DCT was awesome and the car was a total animal. But for light to light fun....ain't happening without LC...at least that was my experience.

I would inquire about what software updates are out there, fixes etc, and read from other members. As I said, maybe I just had bad luck.

If you don't mind losing auto mode, go 6MT, you will never be sorry and will always know when the power is on tap.

[swamp2]

The forum is full of enormous amounts of feedback on M-DCT and MT vs DCT. Rather than begin an entirely new thread you should do some searching. The best peice of advice I can give about M-DCT (other than to get it) is to drive it. Only you can really decide.

[footie]

There seems to be a lot of people with little or no knowledge of how to get a DCT off the line quickly without using LC.

With a manual car that's rwd do you floor the throttle and dump the clutch of course not as all you get is smoked tyres and little forward movement. It requires less throttle and requires you to keep adjusting the throttle most of the way through first gear, why assume DCT is any different.

Experiment, if flooring the throttle doesn't work then try putting the throttle in a little less and when the clutch engages then feed more throttle in without toasting the tyres, it's not brain surgery.

[Davo2003]

Originally Posted by footie

There seems to be a lot of people with little or no knowledge of how to get a DCT off the line quickly without using LC.

With a manual car that's rwd do you floor the throttle and dump the clutch of course not as all you get is smoked tyres and little forward movement. It requires less throttle and requires you to keep adjusting the throttle most of the way through first gear, why assume DCT is any different.

Experiment, if flooring the throttle doesn't work then try putting the throttle in a little less and when the clutch engages then feed more throttle in without toasting the tyres, it's not brain surgery.

Good point...problem was I got tired of experimenting. I can make any car with an MT dance, I should have known better than to go against my gut feeling. My opinion doesn't mean it's not the perfect car for someone else, or someone else will take to the DCT like a fish to water. I for one could not get predictable throttle response. The M3 is a great car and I have no intention of going for a Merz or Audi, they don't measure up IMHO. I just discovered that the DCT was hard enough to master without software or other issues, throw those in and it was just too much. Not knocking the M3...it's brilliant...just will most likely go MT next time unless I hear of some of these issues resolved. Granted some problems were my own shortcomings...I will admit that. I just couldn't get it to "snap" off the line like a muscle car. Anyway....I'm just repeating...apologies

[TLud]

Originally Posted by Davo2003

@TLud

Okay, some will disagree with this but let me try and lay it out for you. I was a dedicated 6MT guy (had a Sport Pkg 06 330i) and loved it. I took a chance and ordered the DCT, after 3K miles I sold it not only due to the strange lags in power delivery but occasional loss of throttle response (diving during u-turns when giving it gas) etc. Plus I had to get a whole new tranny as BMW toasted my first one through the fluid snafu.

My experiences with the DCT ranged from exhilaration to extreme disappointment. My biggest gripe is the inability to feather the clutch and put power to the rear wheels predictably. The only time, and I mean the ONLY time I could get power to the rear wheels under hard acceleration from a stand still was using launch control. I had the car in D5 one time and an AMG CL55 pulled up next to me. Well, I punched it, he punched it, he took off immediately I sat there until the revs hit 5K then the clutch automatically dumped and off I went to get a better look at his taillights. Had I had the TIME to push all the friggin buttons it takes to activate LC, I would have taken off as he did. But this just shouldn't be the case. Another glitch I experienced was while in auto mode D5 if I nail the accelerator the tranny shifts out EARLY...at 6K from 1st to 2nd.

I may have just gotten stuck with two bad trannys, I don't know. There seemed to be so many software issues that I really just couldn't enjoy it although at times, especially on the freeway the DCT was awesome and the car was a total animal. But for light to light fun....ain't happening without LC...at least that was my experience.

I would inquire about what software updates are out there, fixes etc, and read from other members. As I said, maybe I just had bad luck.

If you don't mind losing auto mode, go 6MT, you will never be sorry and will always know when the power is on tap.

Thanks, Davo. This is exactly the sort of response I was looking for. Granted, it's only one data point, but I much appreciate the opinion.

Originally Posted by swamp2

The forum is full of enormous amounts of feedback on M-DCT and MT vs DCT. Rather than begin an entirely new thread you should do some searching. The best peice of advice I can give about M-DCT (other than to get it) is to drive it. Only you can really decide.

Swamp, as you probably did when you ordered your M3, I've read everything possible on the DCT, including anything on this forum. Hence my very specific question and why I didn't need info on the various features of the DCT. I'm looking for a subjective comparison of the "fun factor" (so to speak) of driving the DCt versus the 6MT.

Originally Posted by footie

There seems to be a lot of people with little or no knowledge of how to get a DCT off the line quickly without using LC.

With a manual car that's rwd do you floor the throttle and dump the clutch of course not as all you get is smoked tyres and little forward movement. It requires less throttle and requires you to keep adjusting the throttle most of the way through first gear, why assume DCT is any different.

Experiment, if flooring the throttle doesn't work then try putting the throttle in a little less and when the clutch engages then feed more throttle in without toasting the tyres, it's not brain surgery.

I agree that DCT is very new and most people probably haven't yet mastered the best way to launch it. Also, I think there's a middle ground to launching a 6MT effectively without dumping the clutch. It won't give you the fastest 0-60 times, but you'll have as much fun and your clutch will last longer.

Swamp, I assume you've driven a MT prior to your current M3. You know the feeling you get from making the perfect shift, where your clutch engagement and shift throw align just right. It's kind of like golf, where one perfect shot makes up for 10 so-so shots. Does the technological perfection of the DCT make up for that feeling in your gut when you're in the zone driving the MT? That's my question...

[footie]

Originally Posted by TLud

I agree that DCT is very new and most people probably haven't yet mastered the best way to launch it. Also, I think there's a middle ground to launching a 6MT effectively without dumping the clutch. It won't give you the fastest 0-60 times, but you'll have as much fun and your clutch will last longer.

I'm a manual kind of guy, I've had a DSG for just over a year and returned to a manual GTI for the wife because she didn't like it that much and I will annoyed with not having any control over when the gear changed. But as a concept it was still brilliant, the gear change was perfectly smooth and lightening quick. My experience of DSG maybe means I have that little bit more knowledge of how to get a DCT car off the line cleanly and quickly.

Originally Posted by TLud

I assume you've driven a MT prior to your current M3. You know the feeling you get from making the perfect shift, where your clutch engagement and shift throw align just right. It's kind of like golf, where one perfect shot makes up for 10 so-so shots. Does the technological perfection of the DCT make up for that feeling in your gut when you're in the zone driving the MT? That's my question...

I drove both cars in equally amounts and I can tel you that though the manual is the more rewarding to drive quickly with that added connection that's missing with DCT there is a lot more plus points to the DCT than meets the eye. It's in-traffic ease of driving is miles better than trying to control that clutch and throttle which is not only difficult but doesn't like it for more than 15mins, so in a traffic jam I know which one I would prefer.

Then there is the auto mode which is every bit as good as a proper automatic and yet has none of it's shortfalls. Then the manual mode which has no where near the lag people talk, the change is in a flash and then there is the downshift with that perfect beep of throttle.

Read my previous posts on the debate of manual vs M-DCT and anyone will tell you I am very much a fan of manual but this is be far the best DCT I have driven, ticking every box and then some. I'm still not convinced that the S5 surge is all that great or realistic but S4 to me adds enough excitement and surge to add to the experience.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by swamp2

A couple more minor observations:

To get into neutral at any speed simply press and hold the lever into N for a second or so. If you just click into N it will not do it, perhaps a safety thing to avoid going into neutral if the level is accidentally jabbed. Great for the occassional coast on a hill or manual throttle blip just for fun.

Wow, great info swamp, I just found this thread. So you can do a throttle blip with M-DCT after all.

When going down a reasonably steep hill the transmission uses input from the tilt sensor in the car to guide the shift programing. Basically the transmission has a propensity to stay in a lower gear for some engine braking if you keep the throttle very low. Pretty cool IMO.

That is also very cool.

[kenwelch]

Getting to the bottom of things.....
Here is a picture of what the M-DTC looks like in Swamp's car. I know you can't see anything but the trans mount. But I thought you might like to know what the M-DCT looks like on the lift.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by TLud

Swamp, I assume you've driven a MT prior to your current M3. You know the feeling you get from making the perfect shift, where your clutch engagement and shift throw align just right. It's kind of like golf, where one perfect shot makes up for 10 so-so shots. Does the technological perfection of the DCT make up for that feeling in your gut when you're in the zone driving the MT? That's my question...

@Ken: Thanks for posting the nice pics of the M-DCT "carpet" cover. . It really is a shame that you can not see any of the hardware.

@TLud: All I have ever owned to date are MTs (well maybe one junker VW Rabbit back in the day for a couple months with an auto...). I'm decent with the MT and can heel and toe, but not perfectly. I agree there is some satisfaction in executing perfect shifts. You do have to let go of this to fully enjoy M-DCT. However the enjoyment is multi-faceted, just as it is with a MT. Every shift I hear, the ones I make with paddles or the one the computer makes in D mode, I appreciate. I appreciate the speed, sound, feeling and understanding of the digital and mechanical symphony that is required. What you really gain with M-DCT on the "involvement" side is the ability to use you brain power more for things that humans are really good at and "worry" less and spend less distracting brain and physical effort on shifting. It gives you all the more bandwidth for braking, turn in, settling the car, choosing your line, throttle control, etc. Don't forget the improved performance. After all, many buy the car for just that - its peformance. Cheers.

[TLud]

Originally Posted by swamp2

@TLud: All I have ever owned to date are MTs (well maybe one junker VW Rabbit back in the day for a couple months with an auto...). I'm decent with the MT and can heel and toe, but not perfectly. I agree there is some satisfaction in executing perfect shifts. You do have to let go of this to fully enjoy M-DCT. However the enjoyment is multi-faceted, just as it is with a MT. Every shift I hear, the ones I make with paddles or the one the computer makes in D mode, I appreciate. I appreciate the speed, sound, feeling and understanding of the digital and mechanical symphony that is required. What you really gain with M-DCT on the "involvement" side is the ability to use you brain power more for things that humans are really good at and "worry" less and spend less distracting brain and physical effort on shifting. It gives you all the more bandwidth for braking, turn in, settling the car, choosing your line, throttle control, etc. Don't forget the improved performance. After all, many buy the car for just that - its peformance. Cheers.

Swamp, this is a great point because I do find that the other aspects of my driving do tend to suffer a bit in focusing on the shifting. I would describe my driving skills much like you do, and putting together the braking, double-clutching, and acceleration out of a turn all while nailing the apex is something that I rarely, if ever, do "perfectly." Removing the clutch from the equation would greatly improve my consistency. I'm almost always late with the shift and unable to apply the throttle quickly enough.

I gave my CA my "final" options list for my order (with 6MT), but I have time to change it and I'm really on the fence on this one. I would kill to test drive one.

[onehogwild]

Well I'm new to this site, and speaking of new, my 08 M3 coupe with DTC just arrived Saturday; obviously I was so excited to get to the dealership. The beast wasn't detailed but I had to take it for a drive before leaving town (I can pick it up when I return next weekend).... So I completed the paperwork, gave them a deposit, and took it for a spin.

I figured, like many, that the so called "lag" issue I read (minimally) about was due to the driver and not due to the technology (hey, we're talking BMW technology here). Had I done more research before purchasing the car, like view this site, I would have had more knowledge of the issue being experienced by more than just a few. Nevertheless, I chose DCT. Well, with 40 miles under my belt, I was tremendously impressed with the car, including DCT, in every respect except one; when accelerating from a dead stop there was tremendous lag. Quite frankly, I have never experienced such lag in my life. I truly believe that off the line, my IS 350 would jump a half-car length ahead of my M3, only to be subsequently smoked from that point (oh, I'm sure that comment will generate some discussion, but I believe it to be true). I've owned performance cars, including Porsches and BMWs -- so I am surprisingly disappointed with the off line acceleration. Perhaps with break-in miles, the responsiveness will improve, but I'm not so sure after reading other complaints. So, with 40 miles under my belt, I took the car back to the dealer and left it there to be detailed.

Quite honestly, I'm not sure what to do at this point. I'm not sure that I want to spend $70M on such a tremendous car that unfortunately, without engaging launch control, may continue to provide less than responsive acceleration off the line??? She’s got miles on her now, and the dealer has my non-refundable deposit, but if they’ll apply that to a manual transmission car, I think I may have to pass on the DCT…

[skierman64]

Did you put the throttle setting on sport or sport plus. I find it eliminates or minimizes the lag by making the throttle more sensitive.

When I drove my DCT for the first time, I was also underwhelmed but I'm so glad I got DCT now.

[footie]

Can I ask an important question.

Has anyone from Europe reported similar problems with DCT?

The more I read the more I see that all the problems I know about are from US members, we know that the US cars are config..ed differently (starting in S3 instead of D2) plus in the European cars the desired mode can be programmed in, either starting in S or D mode. I don't know if any of this means anything but it's funny no one from Europe is piping up and saying the same things.

[zeepony]

I have owned my DCT convertible for 2 months and noticed that occasionally at slow speeds it kicks out of gear into neutral. Usually at traffic lights and sometimes when pulling into side roads etc. Once, it even stalled....

I would take it back to the dealer to get them to sort it out but i wrote it off in france 3 weeks ago in a head on collision..... bugger..

Even with the kicking out problem (which i'm sure is a minor computer thing) - still think the advantages out-way the disadvantages.

I guess you have to evaluate if you're journey to work is along beautiful undulating roads which make you want the traditional manual driving style... or sat in traffic when the relief of a bored yet spritely left foot is well worth the money.

I did find it takes a little freedom and perhaps, dare i say 'control' away from the driver. But when specing out my new car - i will still go with the 7 speed DCT.

hope this is useful.

[zeepony]

Oh, and with regard to the S3 vs D2 thing above, i programed my car and it always defaulted to my chosen settings on starting the car. My girlfriends key (i know - very trusting..!!!) also saved her settings to her key.

In all settings, i have to be honest and say it does feel a little lazy off the line unless you are in M mode (all my settings were on supersport mode with the traction control on M-Dynamic mode). Which i am totally happy with as if you know you want to give it some off the lights then all you need to do is move your thumb an inch to the left and push a button. However, if you are pulling into traffic in a 'live' scenario its not always that pre-meditated and you can look like a knob by pulling out and not getting away quick enough.

[naveenb]

will be m-dct work with cars well if we customize them?
-exhaust
-supercharger
-ecu

[emack]

One Word........................SLOPPY!

Just had the software upgrade and no change..........it really quite annoying!

Its a great car but I am struggling to deal with the vagueness of the box!

Mind you, I have just stepped out of a series 2 GT3, so anything else would probably not feel as defined!

Still, very disappointed at this point in time!

[leJUNd]

Coming out of reverse in to Drive... when I click the shifter right in to S/D, sometimes I am in S mode sometimes in D...
Is there way to set the automatic D mode as default.
I don't want the valet to rev the crap out of cold engine n not shift in to 2nd thinking it's just regular automatic.

[sg///M3]

Originally Posted by accordingi2ime

Coming out of reverse in to Drive... when I click the shifter right in to S/D, sometimes I am in S mode sometimes in D...
Is there way to set the automatic D mode as default.
I don't want the valet to rev the crap out of cold engine n not shift in to 2nd thinking it's just regular automatic.

US spec DCT's default to S3 after starting up the car. But the transmission will "remember" what setting you were in (D or S) if you shift into reverse after being in drive. (e.g. if you were in D4 and shift into reverse, when you push the lever to the right to go forward, you'll be back in D4. If you were in S2, it will switch back to S2, etc.)