re71r wear so fast

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by admranger

Grassroots motor sports does tests every year or so on track and auto cross tires. Sometimes UHP street tires as well. Andy Hollis has done a lot of the driving. He’s a meticulous guy with mad skills and keen observations.

That's true and I believe the articles are available online as well for people who don't get the magazine.

Point being there are many resources to 'show the numbers' on the differences between tires in a particular category.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by admranger

Grassroots motor sports does tests every year or so on track and auto cross tires. Sometimes UHP street tires as well. Andy Hollis has done a lot of the driving. He’s a meticulous guy with mad skills and keen observations.

As for track tires, it just depends, right? Slicks or purple crack are fast as fuck if your suspension can handle the grip. I disagree that a super cheap tire is a good choice for hpde. They can be inconsistent and not handle heat well. You do learn to drive around the flaws but it’s hard to tell if you’re improving at all.

Run a high quality street tire if you want lower max g but still want to learn. I used to run Bridgestone RE11’s On the E90M3. Ran them at COTA and destroyed much faster cars when it was mixed conditions on Saturday morning. They were consistent throughout the 3 days I instructed there (my first time ever at the track, btw). I was slow as hell in the tighter stuff due to the low grip but I wasn’t a moving chicane either. Fun tire to slide in turn 19 and the 9-10 section. Judicious throttle usage is important which only helps you as you move to stickier tires.

There’s a lot to be said for running tires you can drive to and from the track on without worrying about rain (until you get down to the wear bars that is!). If you’re getting passed because you’re on tires that are 2-seconds a lap slower, drop down a level and dominate the B run group. Always fun when your fellow run group folks walk by and shake their heads when they realize you’re on street tires and you lapped them.

You make good points. I agree that a quality street tire is an excellent option for HPDE - RS4, RE71 etc. Like you mentioned there's a big difference compared to cheap and closeout deals on purely street max performance summer tires.


The problem I have with Rhyary's comments are; he stated that for HPDE people are better off using cheap UHP tires - which as a generalization is terrible advice.

Secondly, he stated that he learns more on these cheap street tires and thus continues to use them as an 'improvement' tool. I don't understand this and in fact think it's the other way around. I've asked him to explain his reasoning but I'd be surprised if he does. I've directly asked him multiple questions on multiple occasions which he blatantly ignores or does not address.

[rhyary]

[QUOTE=tsk94;26391560]

Originally Posted by tsk94

The problem I have with Rhyary's comments are; he stated that for HPDE people are better off using cheap UHP tires - which as a generalization is terrible advice.

Secondly, he stated that he learns more on these cheap street tires and thus continues to use them as an 'improvement' tool. I don't understand this and in fact think it's the other way around. I've asked him to explain his reasoning but I'd be surprised if he does. I've directly asked him multiple questions on multiple occasions which he blatantly ignores or does not address.

I believe I answered your questions, but you disregarding my points. That's ok.

First and for most, I assume people are not independently wealthy. If they are, I don't think they buy E92 M3. So with that assumption, I think people have to make choices. Another fundamental point is that I believe in driving as many trackdays as possible.

I specifically explained my reasoning many times. But you refuse to acknowledge the point I am making. You don't have to agree with me, but you don't come across as understanding what I am saying.

Here are my two points and I understand you disagree. That is perfectly fine.

1. There is no need to pay more than ~$200/tire (FFI500 new as an example, or cap2 from eBay) to do 95% of what can be learned at HPDE. And if that allows you more trackdays then it is good enough.

2. Don't try to go for PB on UHP, buy slicks.

Fundamentally I don't agree that front and rear axels need the exact same tire. Same kind, but not the exact same tire.

The rest is a lot of chit chat for fun.

So, out of curiosity, and seems like you have strong opinion, and I don't saying it to put you on the spot. How many track days do you do in a year?

[rhyary]

Just to be clear, I don't have any hidden agenda about tires and I have no opinion on how people spend or should spend their money on this sport.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by rhyary

I believe I answered your questions, but you disregarding my points. That's ok.

First and for most, I assume people are not independently wealthy. If they are, I don't think they buy E92 M3. So with that assumption, I think people have to make choices. Another fundamental point is that I believe in driving as many trackdays as possible.

I specifically explained my reasoning many times. But you refuse to acknowledge the point I am making. You don't have to agree with me, but you don't come across as understanding what I am saying.

Here are my two points and I understand you disagree. That is perfectly fine.

1. There is no need to pay more than ~$200/tire (FFI500 new as an example, or cap2 from eBay) to do 95% of what can be learned at HPDE. And if that allows you more trackdays then it is good enough.

2. Don't try to go for PB on UHP, buy slicks.

Fundamentally I don't agree that front and rear axels need the exact same tire. Same kind, but not the exact same tire.

The rest is a lot of chit chat for fun.

So, out of curiosity, and seems like you have strong opinion, and I don't saying it to put you on the spot. How many track days do you do in a year?

You still didn't even answer one of my main questions. This is exactly what I mean. I ask you multiple questions and yes, you answer some of them, but others you avoid entirely. You make the same few points every time and you're right I don't entirely agree.

Explain how running these 'cheap UHP' tires, in your view, is a better improvement tool then an r-compound or a better performing street tire.

In terms of number of track days myself, this year not as many as normal due to the pandemic. On average it will be about 10 open lapping/HPDE days on top of 5-6 race weekends per season.

[tsk94]

I don't 'refuse to acknowledge' any of the points you make - I simply don't agree with the majority of them, but that's not the issue.

You ignore certain questions and spew out the same answers/reasonings every time someone asks you something while generally not answering the specific question.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by tsk94

You still didn't even answer one of my main questions. This is exactly what I mean. I ask you multiple questions and yes, you answer some of them, but others you avoid entirely. You make the same few points every time and you're right I don't entirely agree.

Explain how running these tires, in your view, is a better improvement tool then an r-compound or a better performing street tire.

In terms of number of track days, this year not as many as normal due to the pandemic. On average it will be about 10 open lapping/HPDE days with 5-6 race weekends per season.

My apology, I think I did answer your question, but i will again to make sure not question left unanswered.

Anytime I get into a car, my rental, my work car and my fun car, my job is to manage traction with the given equipment and given condition.

So I am of the opinion that I can learn managing traction on any thing, the ONLY difference is the SPEED in which I am managing the traction.

Therefor, and here I am answering your question, every time i am in a car, I make sure to learn something.

For example, in my work car, I learned to left foot brake during the whole winter in ice, snow and rain in the north east. I was on "The Pilot® Sport A/S 3+" and was able to learn so that on my first trackday, I was naturally comfortable braking with my left foot.

This is another example. Multiple lines I take at NYST. Almost each turn at NYST can be taken off camber or on camber. They did that for drainage. The off camber would be the "correct wide line" the on-camber would be tight. I can learn what happens during off-canber and on-camber and which one is faster, on any tire.

When I come with R7, I already drove each corner mutiple lines and I can quickly chose what line works for R7 better. I don't have to spend all day figuring out the lines. Also, when I pass someone, I can take any line available to me with out freaking out.

So hopefully this answer your question.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by rhyary

My apology, I think I did answer your question, but i will again to make sure not question left unanswered.

Anytime I get into a car, my rental, my work car and my fun car, my job is to manage traction with the given equipment and given condition.

So I am of the opinion that I can learn managing traction on any thing, the ONLY difference is the SPEED in which I am managing the traction.

Therefor, and here I am answering your question, every time i am in a car, I make sure to learn something.

For example, in my work car, I learned to left foot brake during the whole winter in ice, snow and rain in the north east. I was on "The Pilot® Sport A/S 3+" and was able to learn so that on my first trackday, I was naturally comfortable braking with my left foot.

This is another example. Multiple lines I take at NYST. Almost each turn at NYST can be taken off camber or on camber. They did that for drainage. The off camber would be the "correct wide line" the on-camber would be tight. I can learn what happens during off-canber and on-camber and which one is faster, on any tire.

When I come with R7, I already drove each corner mutiple lines and I can quickly chose what line works for R7 better. I don't have to spend all day figuring out the lines. Also, when I pass someone, I can take any line available to me with out freaking out.

So hopefully this answer your question.

Somewhat, yes.

Any time out on track, no matter the car or tire, you are always driving to the limit of the available grip.

Initially your previous posts made it sound like driving on a cheap UHP tire allows you to accomplish something you couldn't on a different tire. I don't believe this was your intention based on your latest post.

I do agree that, for the most part, you can use any tire to improve your driving. One problem is that using a UHP street tire as your primary track tire and only using 'fast' tires (R7/A7, slicks etc) to set PB is that the two types of tires have fundamentally different characteristics. Street tires are forgiving, like lots of slip angle and are very audible at the limit. Contrasted with a slick they are very different. If an individual is not aware or familiar with these differences they could be in for a bad time. A street tire will scream at you when it's at it's limit and when it does break away it's very progressive and easy to catch. It's a different story on a slick - often they have no audible cues and the break away is abrupt in comparison. It's a whole different ball game driving a street tire and a slick to its limits. So my point is, you can spend all the time you want driving on street tires, and yes you will improve, but to drive a slick to it's limit you need seat time with similar tires to do so. It's not as simple as, oh I'll use these street tires 90% of the time then slap on some A7's or Pirelli DH's when I want to set a PB. Yes you'll be faster and likely set a PB but if you want to use the full potential out of the tire you need use similar tires more often. Other than very experienced drivers, the average intermediate HPDE driver cannot jump from driving a street tire at its limit to a slick at its limit.

That's where r-compound tires (NT01, RR, AR1, R888R etc) come into play. They serve as an excellent middle ground between street tires and slicks (A7, DH etc) in terms of; cost, grip, durability and ease of approachability.

[dparm]

I've still not seen someone post telemetry proving or disproving that an RE71R falls off after 3 laps, how significant of a drop it is, and what the specific impact is (e.g. braking performance, lower lateral G, twitchy response, etc). It seems like with the popularity of the AIM Solo DL, that should be pretty straightforward.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by dparm

I've still not seen someone post telemetry proving or disproving that an RE71R falls off after 3 laps. It seems like with the popularity of the AIM Solo DL, that should be pretty straightforward.

I ran RE71r's on my first trip to VIR in Aug 2017. I ran 10 laps first session, 6 laps second session and 5 laps the final session. In all sessions, my fastest times were at the end of each session. Of course, I was still learning track and not setting any kind of records. In the first session, I ran my fastest time on the 10th lap. I looked at lat_acc, and here my max lat acc for the various laps: first 2 laps (-1.39); middle few laps (-1.35); 10th and final lap (-1.43). In lap 5 of my final session of the day, I hit a -1.50 with ambient temps of 93 vs 82 in the morning sessions.

These tires are still in pretty good shape. I still have them though I haven't driven them since that event.

as a reference, my max G (a year later but also in August) with sticker A7's was -1.65.

[SYT_Shadow]

I agree.

I hear a whole lot about how much the RE71 falls off, that is it an autoX tire, yada yada yada... but my fastest times still come at the end of a 30 min session. If this were so prevalent... where is the data that backs up how horrible they are after 3 laps?

I've said it over and over again, I think the RE71 tire is the best combination of wear/speed/noise on the road/water behavior of any streetable track tire.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

I ran RE71r's on my first trip to VIR in Aug 2017. I ran 10 laps first session, 6 laps second session and 5 laps the final session. In all sessions, my fastest times were at the end of each session. Of course, I was still learning track and not setting any kind of records. In the first session, I ran my fastest time on the 10th lap. I looked at lat_acc, and here my max lat acc for the various laps: first 2 laps (-1.39); middle few laps (-1.35); 10th and final lap (-1.43). In lap 5 of my final session of the day, I hit a -1.50 with ambient temps of 93 vs 82 in the morning sessions.

These tires are still in pretty good shape. I still have them though I haven't driven them since that event.

as a reference, my max G (a year later but also in August) with sticker A7's was -1.65.

How about longitudinal acceleration (which would be a proxy for ability to put power down and to brake) as well as Gsum (the combination of long & lat G)?

[admranger]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

I ran RE71r's on my first trip to VIR in Aug 2017. I ran 10 laps first session, 6 laps second session and 5 laps the final session. In all sessions, my fastest times were at the end of each session. Of course, I was still learning track and not setting any kind of records. In the first session, I ran my fastest time on the 10th lap. I looked at lat_acc, and here my max lat acc for the various laps: first 2 laps (-1.39); middle few laps (-1.35); 10th and final lap (-1.43). In lap 5 of my final session of the day, I hit a -1.50 with ambient temps of 93 vs 82 in the morning sessions.

These tires are still in pretty good shape. I still have them though I haven't driven them since that event.

as a reference, my max G (a year later but also in August) with sticker A7's was -1.65.

Don’t confuse me with facts.

Ima going to guess folks overdrive the piss out of the RE71 to make if fall off. Slip angles of 35 degrees will do it!

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by admranger

Don’t confuse me with facts.

Ima going to guess folks overdrive the piss out of the RE71 to make if fall off. Slip angles of 35 degrees will do it!

Very likely. That is their failure as drivers, not the tire's.

I've double dutied an M3 for the longest time, so when doing that the RE71s get a full hour at a time... and work just fine.

Perhaps all these other drivers are much faster?

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Perhaps all these other drivers are much faster?

Likely this

[admranger]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

Likely this

Ouch

[aboutsize14]

So this is the track car I ran in a hpde track event back in Feb on these tires. 2012 Boss 302 MCS da's coil overs, watts link, six piston calipers aero, Apex ec7's 11 inch, 305 Re71R square. It was a shake down weekend (chuckwalla) for it, and me for I normally run the the silver slut in the background in a racing series here in the southwest that I won a championship in 2019. The Silver slut race car has a transponder,aim system, smarty cam in it. Could pull shitloads of data from it. This Boss I ran wasn't able to get any data for it that weekend for I was not interested in the hassle of switching it out. It was a last minute pick to run that weekend. I have no plans on defending my Championship in 2020 for so many events were scratched due to the covid mess.
I do run hpde events different than most on this thread probably. Im not all that consumed by lap times and just having fun! Don't get it twisted, I had an idea of the times the guys I was running with that weekend and it wasn't slow.My posts were just my take on these tires and can respect what others have found different in there results running there car. There is so many variables when it comes to these tires it will always be a great debate because of this.
I have raced on a completely different tires the last 3 years in more or less a spec class. I do believe I would have loved to qualify on these tires but for a 20 sprint, or 45 enduro race I think ill pass. And yes I could have ran the re71r's in my class.
Im no pro by no any means, but have enough track time to give feedback on what the tire/car is doing x amount laps in. Was I over driving the car at times? Maybe! Did I have the pressures set to give best performance? It was close! I was just happy the car did what I wanted it to do and was able to have a shitload of fun in the California desert that weekend! It was a fun low stress HPDE event for me that gave me feedback as to what these tires will do or not do. Along with where the car/driver are at! Overall I was happy and looking forward to the future racing this Boss in another class out here in the Wild West .