Blown motors, Rod Bearing failure S65 Registry.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by tlrid3r

I thought I would share this.
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...3#post16492983

Tlrid,

sorry to hear but seems like brilliant catch of you in time.

Out of curiousity, what petrol octane do you usually use?
One interesting theory being discussed is that lower octane create more knock resulting in over time increased stress on the bearings.

Thanks

[X5-User]

just wondering, are there titanium rod bearing options (not OEM) for this car? or the ones available in market are only coated OEM?

[tlrid3r]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Tlrid,

sorry to hear but seems like brilliant catch of you in time.

Out of curiousity, what petrol octane do you usually use?
One interesting theory being discussed is that lower octane create more knock resulting in over time increased stress on the bearings.

Thanks

91 which is the highest here in Cali

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Bimmer-M3

just wondering, are there titanium rod bearing options (not OEM) for this car? or the ones available in market are only coated OEM?

WPC is a treatment, not a coating. Coating strike me as a terrible idea, as it further reduces tolerances on a car that's likely suffering from too tight of tolerances.

... not that I like coatings normally, either, but especially in this application.

[Helmsman]

Thanks Tlrid,

again seems like quite a few of the engines having bearing issues have been ran on low octane fuel. Simple electronics eng myself so don't mean much to me but we have a few proper engine guys on the forum who seem to collect data points here.

I'm based in Europe (Sweden) myself where we typically have higher octane (95-99) and in fact we do get to hear quite seldom about bearing issues over here although we have fairly active forums. Assumingly US has a larger M3 population but we certainly have quite a few over here as well (not the least in Germany).

Anyway, interesting thoughts worth to notice I think.

Thanks again

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Thanks Tlrid,

again seems like quite a few of the engines having bearing issues have been ran on low octane fuel. Simple electronics eng myself so don't mean much to me but we have a few proper engine guys on the forum who seem to collect data points here.

I'm based in Europe (Sweden) myself where we typically have higher octane (95-99) and in fact we do get to hear quite seldom about bearing issues over here although we have fairly active forums. Assumingly US has a larger M3 population but we certainly have quite a few over here as well (not the least in Germany).

Anyway, interesting thoughts worth to notice I think.

Thanks again

Different rating systems-- your 98 octane is the equivalent of our 93 octane.

[thekurgan]

Originally Posted by Bimmer-M3

just wondering, are there titanium rod bearing options (not OEM) for this car? or the ones available in market are only coated OEM?

Why titanium?

[V1.47fan]

Originally Posted by thekurgan

Why titanium?

Because race car!

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by Malek@MRF

I am sorry to hear that. I was given the same responses as well. I will try one last time. If not, I will rebuild the engine from the ground up in house and once and for all solve the issue permanently.

Malek did your motor let go?

Dave

[Malek@MRF]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

Malek did your motor let go?

Dave

Dave,

Yes, it has. Stock engine, only bolt ever turned on the engine has been the two drain plugs. I will pull apart the engine in the next few days to see what actually happened. Fortunately I may have caught it in time where no serious damage was done and its just a rod bearing, but if the crank is scored, then the plan will be as follows..

New crank with proper journal clearances for rods and mains. Keeping the factory stroke and possibly boring motor to gain some displacement. Higher compression pistons (12.5:1). Schrick 292 degree camshafts, upgraded valve springs along with some CNC head work to tie in the upgraded valve train components and to support 9000 rpm safely. I considered many different variations and possibilities, still haven't fully decided.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by V1.47fan

Because race car!

Race car: parts only need to last for the duration of a single race. Or, at most, a season of races.

... Not what I want!

[aus]

Unfortunately, added another one: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1025948

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Thanks Tlrid,

again seems like quite a few of the engines having bearing issues have been ran on low octane fuel. Simple electronics eng myself so don't mean much to me but we have a few proper engine guys on the forum who seem to collect data points here.

I'm based in Europe (Sweden) myself where we typically have higher octane (95-99) and in fact we do get to hear quite seldom about bearing issues over here although we have fairly active forums. Assumingly US has a larger M3 population but we certainly have quite a few over here as well (not the least in Germany).

Anyway, interesting thoughts worth to notice I think.

Thanks again

There are not many M3s in Sweden compared to the US. Also, there was just another one today in a 93 AKI state (98 octane or RON to you).

Most states in the US are on 93 AKI with the notable exception of California.

Also, if you look at M5board there are many pics of bad bearings from S85 V10 engines in Germany.

[aus]

Originally Posted by Malek@MRF

There is clearly a problem, which is why I have been using 0W-40 for a very long time now on this engine and many of my customers do as well. I am willing to invest in Clevite manufacturing new bearings with the proper clearances for the S65, as you mentioned this could be a possibility with your connections to Clevite. We should talk.

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

I will send you a PM this evening.

Did this conversation ever happen, and are there any plans for a proper set of bearings? I ask because there's some early talk of a group buy for WPC bearings. I'm sure most would rather get proper fitting bearings if they're coming down the pipe at some point.

.

[SenorFunkyPants]

This chart of year/mileage and failure as a function of production numbers shows a pretty clear deterioration in bearing reliability coinciding with the change to the new material spec bearings with the slightly larger clearance in late 2010/early 2011. The inference being that the increased bearing clearance and/or materials change is the cause.

Kawasaki's suggested bearing group buy was for the old spec (no longer available from BMW) "lead faced" bearing but with a greater clearance - myself (if I was in the market for bearings) I would go for this but with OEM clearance.
Chart is for USA/Canada cars only, doesn't include cars with supercharges or the latest fails: Maleks 2008 car and Orekid24 2011 car.

[TheSnail]

I'm interested in the Clevite bearing project as well. I would have a whole lot more confidence in Clevite bearings, than any coated or treated OEM bearing. If we set up a Clevite bearing fund, I would be willing to drop a few hundred, just to get them rolling the ball on this.

[Malek@MRF]

Originally Posted by aus

Did this conversation ever happen, and are there any plans for a proper set of bearings? I ask because there's some early talk of a group buy for WPC bearings. I'm sure most would rather get proper fitting bearings if they're coming down the pipe at some point.

.

It did, but there seems to be hesitation from some parties, possibly Clevite themselves, thinking there will be a recall issued by BMW, something I doubt will ever happen.

I would be more than willing to help invest in this. It sure is less costly than removing the motor and having the crank journals polished to the correct size for proper clearances.

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by Malek@MRF

It did, but there seems to be hesitation from some parties, possibly Clevite themselves, thinking there will be a recall issued by BMW, something I doubt will ever happen.

I would be more than willing to help invest in this. It sure is less costly than removing the motor and having the crank journals polished to the correct size for proper clearances.

I know we agree that a recall by BMW is very unlikely. I imagine they've done the math and found it's cheaper to goodwill the engines that fail than it is to pay to replace the rod bearings in every M3 on the road. This is especially true as more and more M3s reach high mileage where a failure is not as unexpected.

I suspect that it would be both lucrative and beneficial to the community if someone supplied properly sized bearings.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Hujan

I know we agree that a recall by BMW is very unlikely. I imagine they've done the math and found it's cheaper to goodwill the engines that fail than it is to pay to replace the rod bearings in every M3 on the road. This is especially true as more and more M3s reach high mileage where a failure is not as unexpected.

I suspect that it would be both lucrative and beneficial to the community if someone supplied properly sized bearings.

Don't think 6,700 miles is high mileage ? => # 204 => http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...786615&page=10

[PandaM3]

Originally Posted by Malek@MRF

Dave,

Yes, it has. Stock engine, only bolt ever turned on the engine has been the two drain plugs. I will pull apart the engine in the next few days to see what actually happened. Fortunately I may have caught it in time where no serious damage was done and its just a rod bearing, but if the crank is scored, then the plan will be as follows..

New crank with proper journal clearances for rods and mains. Keeping the factory stroke and possibly boring motor to gain some displacement. Higher compression pistons (12.5:1). Schrick 292 degree camshafts, upgraded valve springs along with some CNC head work to tie in the upgraded valve train components and to support 9000 rpm safely. I considered many different variations and possibilities, still haven't fully decided.

Malek,

Curious if you have been keeping track of the oil samples prior to this? Did the oil sample trends point towards this happening? Sorry if this has already been answered.

thx...

[aussiem3]

I think these failures are manufacturing and quality control issues. If there is clearance issue how come some of the bearings look as if they are new? Some are worse than others. Doesn't make sense if clearance was an issue. We will see a consistent wear pattern. I am sure someone would have observed and raised this before.

[karel021]

is it bearings or is just the Cam pully that breaks ?

They guy i bought my engine from has braken more then 1 cam pully.. and the sound is similar.