Hooiser M3 Track Build

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Hoosier_M3

I might start a separate thread but also need to think about upgrading the ABS. I don't think it's as big of an issue with the current tire setup but I would eventually like to get a proper motorsports ABS setup. I think this is just a flash as well?

No idea but please share what you find.

I believe you can code 'ZCP' ABS parameters, maybe there's such a thing as GTS/CRT ABS coding. I'm not an expert

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by Hoosier_M3

Couldn't agree more. They really like the tune they've got for the GT4 which is effectively same motor, so Plan A is to get a slightly adapted version of that map for my car. Plan B would be Epic.

I might start a separate thread but also need to think about upgrading the ABS. I don't think it's as big of an issue with the current tire setup but I would eventually like to get a proper motorsports ABS setup. I think this is just a flash as well?

It's not. To get the GT4's ABS it requires replacing the entire ABS unit. It cannot be done just by flashing. The other option is a Bosch Motorsports system but that is significantly more expensive.

Edit:
To clarify about the GT4 ABS. You can send out your current ABS ECU to be coded or have one that's precoded sent to you. But either way, you'll need to take out you're existing ABS unit and replace it with either a new one that's has the GT4 ABS map on it or your own once you get it back with the upgraded ABS map. Unfortunately it's not nearly as straight forward as uploading a new tune onto the car.

[tsk94]

Then once the ABS system is replaced you'll need to have and be familiar with INPA to properly bleed the ABS system.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by tsk94

It's not. To get the GT4's ABS it requires replacing the entire ABS unit. It cannot be done just by flashing. The other option is a Bosch Motorsports system but that is significantly more expensive.

Edit:
To clarify about the GT4 ABS. You can send out your current ABS ECU to be coded or have one that's precoded sent to you. But either way, you'll need to take out you're existing ABS unit and replace it with either a new one that's has the GT4 ABS map on it or your own once you get it back with the upgraded ABS map. Unfortunately it's not nearly as straight forward as uploading a new tune onto the car.

So our current ABS unit can be coded to the GT4 parameters.

Install sounds like a PITA but similar to the E46... this is interesting

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

So our current ABS unit can be coded to the GT4 parameters.

Install sounds like a PITA but similar to the E46... this is interesting

It would be more accurate to call it upgraded. I've gotten mixed answers, some say it's a software change in the ABS ECU while others have told me the ABS ECU is replaced with one that has the GT4 coding.

Perhaps it can 'technically' be coded, but it cannot be done remotely from everyone I've talked to - hence why it's such a PITA and why almost no one has done it. Everyone I've spoken to either sends you a new ABS unit with the GT4 ABS included or you send them your current ABS module (including the ECU) and they 'upgrade' it (whether that's replacing or coding) the GT4 ABS map onto it. It's quite a bit cheaper then going to a full motorsports system but I'm not sure how the two would differ in performance.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by tsk94

It would be more accurate to call it upgraded. I've gotten mixed answers, some say it's a software change in the ABS ECU while others have told me the ABS ECU is replaced with one that has the GT4 coding.

Perhaps it can 'technically' be coded, but it cannot be done remotely from everyone I've talked to - hence why it's such a PITA and why almost no one has done it. Everyone I've spoken to either sends you a new ABS unit with the GT4 ABS included or you send them your current ABS module (including the ECU) and they 'upgrade' it (whether that's replacing or coding) the GT4 ABS map onto it. It's quite a bit cheaper then going to a full motorsports system but I'm not sure how the two would differ in performance.

It sounds like the same process as the E46, which can't be done remotely to the best of my knowledge. You ship it in and it's reprogrammed

[nicksm3]

Originally Posted by Hoosier_M3

Got the car out at LRP yesterday and today for an initial shakedown. Wow. Going to the current setup from Ohlins R&T coilovers, a bolt-in roll bar, all OEM rubber bushings/mounts, and stock calipers/rotors was an even bigger change than I had expected. It's hard to find adequate words, but it feels like everything is multiplied by 10. I may put together some more profound thoughts on the comparison later on, but I'll start with the big positives and negatives. I fixate on identifying and fixing what's wrong vs. just enjoying what's right so this will seem skewed to the negative. All in all it was a phenomenal weekend.

Positives:

- The suspension is magical. It soaks up curbing/bumps better than my Ohlins ever did yet there's almost no body roll. We ended up making a few small tweaks Friday morning but left it for the afternoon and all of today. We'll need to make more changes when I move to a better tire but (liked I'd been concerned about in the other thread) it does not appear this will require as much trial and error as I'd initially expected.

-The brakes. With my stock calipers/rotors I'd brake between the 5 and 6 marker coming into 1 & 2 (for those that know LRP). And deal with fade at the end of longer sessions even after I stopped over-braking. Now running the APs with Pagid RSL-29s and brake cooling ducts there's absolutely zero fade. I went pretty easy on the brakes (especially since I've still got street ABS) and was comfortably braking around the 4. I can/will push that more next weekend.

-The cooling. It was high 80s (if not low 90s) and sunny. I had no issues all weekend with engine/coolant temps or the power steering/DCT overheating.

Negatives:

-This car really needs a tune and coding. Nothing has been done since we gutted it. I have more warnings than I can keep track of... but not SES light.

-The DCT. My DCT is in a weird mode where (in manual) it automatically shifts from 1-2 around 3k, does not want to downshift at high RPMs, and won't show the 6th bar with DSC off. This does not appear to be heat related or a mechanical issue since the DCT is shifting flawlessly and for around 60 seconds after we clear the codes will not exhibit this behavior. We will know Monday but I suspect it's a bad wheel speed sensor. Here's my thinking (would love any other ideas here)... the DSC is always off (I normally turn it off to drive and turn the car off with it off so didn't think about it until I started writing this. But in retrospect it was actually on when the car turned on then turned off when the other warnings popped up, which makes me think there's something causing that, and the little brake picture warning keeps popping up (which I'd been assuming was only related to all the brake modifications)). These two things along with the weird 1-2 shift were exactly what happened last time I had a wheel speed sensor go bad.

Lack of data and video. I need to invest in good data logging/video system. My Aim Solo died Friday and I forgot to charge it overnight so today was a flop w/r/t timing. Given the importance of data/video for coaching I need a good setup here.

Tires. I ran R888s left over from lest year (we were in a pinch and couldn't get NT01s in time) and they were clearly a limiting factor. The car is way too easy (and fun) to slide around with these on. I think I'll move to Toyo RRs next before stepping up to slicks. I'd like to stick with something a little more forgiving (and cheaper) for a bit longer. Any tire suggestions?

And a few pictures.

Hey man!
In regards to the DCT and downshifts...I've been having the same issue. When I brake at the 2.5/3 marker into turn 1 and I downshift...doesn't give me the down shift at all in high RPM...gives it to me after I click again and obviously the RPM is lower. It's annoying and most of all frustrating.
I believe it has all to do with me running slicks, BBK, and high Gforces. The factory ABS/Computer computes it as "safety/potential hazard/accident"
That's what I feel. These factory computer systems aren't meant for going 10/10ths at the limit.
So I've been on a hunt to solve this myself. You come up with something? Oh and my tune is ESS...been running it for years.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by nicksm3

Hey man!
In regards to the DCT and downshifts...I've been having the same issue. When I brake at the 2.5/3 marker into turn 1 and I downshift...doesn't give me the down shift at all in high RPM...gives it to me after I click again and obviously the RPM is lower. It's annoying and most of all frustrating.
I believe it has all to do with me running slicks, BBK, and high Gforces. The factory ABS/Computer computes it as "safety/potential hazard/accident"
That's what I feel. These factory computer systems aren't meant for going 10/10ths at the limit.
So I've been on a hunt to solve this myself. You come up with something? Oh and my tune is ESS...been running it for years.

You both probably need the slonik DCT pan + GTS overfill method

[nicksm3]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

You both probably need the slonik DCT pan + GTS overfill method

Been there, have it done brother. E92 DCT with slicks at 10/10ths driving isn't meant for this car...downshifts are always delayed when braking.

[Hoosier_M3]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

You both probably need the slonik DCT pan + GTS overfill method

What's GTS overfill method? I'm still convinced there's some sort of wheel speed sensor related issue at hand here as well but willing to try any and everything.

Originally Posted by nicksm3

Been there, have it done brother. E92 DCT with slicks at 10/10ths driving isn't meant for this car...downshifts are always delayed when braking.

Don't say that! What else have you tried? btw when are you next at LRP? I'll be there the next 2 weekends...

[Hoosier_M3]

Also to my above point, is anyone running motorsport ABS? It looks like you can just order the new ECU from Germany for around $1k and be good to. I know very little about this and am going to look into reprogramming the existing ABS system as well.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Hoosier_M3

What's GTS overfill method? I'm still convinced there's some sort of wheel speed sensor related issue at hand here as well but willing to try any and everything.



Don't say that! What else have you tried? btw when are you next at LRP? I'll be there the next 2 weekends...

jack up the passenger side safely to tilt the car over, continue feeding it dct fluid. You can get another quart in like this

You do the regular fill procedure but with the car tilted

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by Hoosier_M3

Also to my above point, is anyone running motorsport ABS? It looks like you can just order the new ECU from Germany for around $1k and be good to. I know very little about this and am going to look into reprogramming the existing ABS system as well.

One of the things I noticed after getting coaching was how much less brake my coach used over me. In several places at LRP and WGI, his brake pressure would be almost 1/2 of mine. In some cases, he would brake sooner but softer and roll a lot more speed. I'd personally spend my money on other mods than upgrading ABS. Albeit I am in an E46 M3 with stock Mk60 DSC/ABS.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

One of the things I noticed after getting coaching was how much less brake my coach used over me. In several places at LRP and WGI, his brake pressure would be almost 1/2 of mine. In some cases, he would brake sooner but softer and roll a lot more speed. I'd personally spend my money on other mods than upgrading ABS. Albeit I am in an E46 M3 with stock Mk60 DSC/ABS.

I believe the E92 uses the same MK60 system. The MK60 system is very good for what it is and it a very popular retrofit for track cars that either didn't have ABS or if upgrading from an older ABS system that isn't 4-channel like the MK60.

True motorsports ABS systems are solely designed to handle the increased brake performance from running slicks and allow very slight amounts of locking (most will have numerous ABS maps) before intervention to optimize brake performance. For r-compound tires the stock MK60 system is very good and even with hard compound slicks works well.

I fully agree with ThunderMoose that your money is likely better spent elsewhere. If you happen to be in the 1% and won't be running either r-compounds or hard compound slicks and will be using a soft compound slick I would still see how the stock system handles it before upgrading immediately - otherwise I'd leave it as is.

[Hoosier_M3]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

One of the things I noticed after getting coaching was how much less brake my coach used over me. In several places at LRP and WGI, his brake pressure would be almost 1/2 of mine. In some cases, he would brake sooner but softer and roll a lot more speed. I'd personally spend my money on other mods than upgrading ABS. Albeit I am in an E46 M3 with stock Mk60 DSC/ABS.

I don't have this level of data logging capabilities yet but that's a really interesting/helpful exercise to do. Turn 1 is the only corner at LRP that really requires a good hard brake and the rest of the track seems as much about settling the nose of the car as it is about slowing down.

Totally random but I've read through some of your posts/videos and I've actually met your instructor a few times. I know his brother pretty well. It's a small world...

Originally Posted by tsk94

I believe the E92 uses the same MK60 system. The MK60 system is very good for what it is and it a very popular retrofit for track cars that either didn't have ABS or if upgrading from an older ABS system that isn't 4-channel like the MK60.

True motorsports ABS systems are solely designed to handle the increased brake performance from running slicks and allow very slight amounts of locking (most will have numerous ABS maps) before intervention to optimize brake performance. For r-compound tires the stock MK60 system is very good and even with hard compound slicks works well.

I fully agree with ThunderMoose that your money is likely better spent elsewhere. If you happen to be in the 1% and won't be running either r-compounds or hard compound slicks and will be using a soft compound slick I would still see how the stock system handles it before upgrading immediately - otherwise I'd leave it as is.

This is really good to hear. I'll be leaving the ABS alone. Thanks for all of the input here.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by Hoosier_M3

I don't have this level of data logging capabilities yet but that's a really interesting/helpful exercise to do. Turn 1 is the only corner at LRP that really requires a good hard brake and the rest of the track seems as much about settling the nose of the car as it is about slowing down.

Totally random but I've read through some of your posts/videos and I've actually met your instructor a few times. I know his brother pretty well. It's a small world...

Definitely a small world.

Scott helped me the most in turn 1. I was really braking hard there as well when we started. But eventually he got me to go from a max long G of -1.32 to -1.23. He was at -1.16. I gained nearly a second in big bend by braking lighter. But that definitely is the hardest braking zone. I looked through my data and looks like Road Atlanta turn 10 and VIR Turn 1 are the hardest braking zones of tracks that I have run - -1.4 long G's!

[nicksm3]

Originally Posted by Hoosier_M3

What's GTS overfill method? I'm still convinced there's some sort of wheel speed sensor related issue at hand here as well but willing to try any and everything.

Don't say that! What else have you tried? btw when are you next at LRP? I'll be there the next 2 weekends...

I will be at Limerock on Monday the 29th with SCDA.
I tested my car with R comp tires and the shifting was there, did everything I told it to but I was relatively slower around the track but...car felt good.
Swapped to slicks and it was a different ball game when it came to the ECU. Really want to find a way to get this sorted out but...do we spend the $$$ on a Motorsport ABS system?
We should get a hold of FALL-LINE. They run some seriously built e92's and I'm sure they have an answer.

[Hoosier_M3]

Originally Posted by nicksm3

I will be at Limerock on Monday the 29th with SCDA.
I tested my car with R comp tired and the shifting was there, did everything I told it to but I was relatively slower around the track but...car felt good.
Swapped to slicks and it was a different ball game when it came to the ECU. Really want to find a way to get this sorted out but...do we spend the $$$ on a Motorsport ABS system?
We should get a hold of FALL-LINE. They run some seriously built e92's and I'm sure they have an answer.

Like I said above I'll be holding off on this indefinitely. If you are in the market I found this from a pretty reputable shop in Germany. Keep in mind that price includes 19% VAT so we would actually pay a bit less.

http://www.mk-motorsportteile.de/epa...e-ABS%20e92%22

[nicksm3]

Originally Posted by Hoosier_M3

Like I said above I'll be holding off on this indefinitely. If you are in the market I found this from a pretty reputable shop in Germany. Keep in mind that price includes 19% VAT so we would actually pay a bit less.

http://www.mk-motorsportteile.de/epages/63717011.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/63717011/Products/%22Race-ABS%20e92%22

Wow that looks promising! We would have to run a Stand-alone ? I'm assuming because I have yet to know of anyone running that here in the states with the oem ECU

[Hoosier_M3]

Originally Posted by nicksm3

Wow that looks promising! We would have to run a Stand-alone ? I'm assuming because I have yet to know of anyone running that here in the states with the oem ECU

I am not sure. I actually just reached out to them about their carbon fiber floor pan/dead pedal setup so I can inquire about this as well. The description was promising but also rather lacking in details:

"Optimized ABS and DSC software for racing and track use


Optimization on the race track use

Optimization on slicks and semislicks

Optimization for larger brake systems

The optimization can be flashed on the serial ABS / DSC controller

OEM GT4 software for the M3 e9x


Please ask for this."

The "serial controller" comment seems to imply that it won't require a separate ABS unit?

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by Hoosier_M3

I am not sure. I actually just reached out to them about their carbon fiber floor pan/dead pedal setup so I can inquire about this as well. The description was promising but also rather lacking in details:

"Optimized ABS and DSC software for racing and track use


Optimization on the race track use

Optimization on slicks and semislicks

Optimization for larger brake systems

The optimization can be flashed on the serial ABS / DSC controller

OEM GT4 software for the M3 e9x


Please ask for this."

The "serial controller" comment seems to imply that it won't require a separate ABS unit?

I've spoken with MK about this. They told me I would need to remove and send them my ABS ECU to be upgraded with the GT4 ABS map.

Still might consider it in the future but it could be a long turn around time sending it to Germany.

[Chavey]

Hey guys new to the forum but just thought I would add here that you absolutely can reflash your abs ecu in a couple different ways with either the GTS program or a full customised motorsport setting to take in to account your unique mod list (specific weight tyre sizes ect.)

Douglas at Racing Harness Technologies in the states has been helping me retro fit the earlier mk60 with motorsport functions to my R32 GTR which is a great deal harder to do than getting it working in our M3's.