Advice for new intermediate students

[dparm]

The other issue I see with trains of cars is that you get point-by-ception. The guy in front of me will know I'm faster, give me the point-by, but the guy ahead of him starts giving a point-by and suddenly sees me behind him so he swerves back over and cancels it. Not good.

[Chris_PDX]

Originally Posted by dparm

The other issue I see with trains of cars is that you get point-by-ception. The guy in front of me will know I'm faster, give me the point-by, but the guy ahead of him starts giving a point-by and suddenly sees me behind him so he swerves back over and cancels it. Not good.

Yup. If I have someone faster than me behind me (it does happen, because I'm not A Driving God) and we're in a long line of cars, I will intentionally slow up into the passing zone at least try to cycle to the person behind me up.

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by CorruptCommie

Never understood why people want to ditch the help ASAP and drive by themselves. But then again, I don't have God given talent.

I can answer that - it's not as fun. Nobody wants to spend money going to HPDEs and come out feeling like they didn't have any fun. With new instructors, they can give a bit too much feedback so every corner and every session, there's something new. At that point, it's not much different than sitting in a classroom for a lecture.

I'm a supporter of giving intermediate students capable of driving safely some solo time so they can practice what they learned without interruption. In my experience, the more seasoned instructors will often sit quietly for most of a lap if you're not doing anything drastically wrong so that's almost the same thing.

[Azeka1]

Originally Posted by Ximian

I can answer that - it's not as fun. Nobody wants to spend money going to HPDEs and come out feeling like they didn't have any fun. With new instructors, they can give a bit too much feedback so every corner and every session, there's something new. At that point, it's not much different than sitting in a classroom for a lecture.

I'm a supporter of giving intermediate students capable of driving safely some solo time so they can practice what they learned without interruption. In my experience, the more seasoned instructors will often sit quietly for most of a lap if you're not doing anything drastically wrong so that's almost the same thing.

You typically get a lot more track time for your dollar when running with advanced non-marque clubs (up to 8 sessions per day) and open track events. However, if you're paying for an instructed event, for instance with CCA, you're only going to get 4 sessions per day. Considering the additional cost is paying for your instructor's time, take full advantage of having them in the car with you. --- If only doing a handful of events per year, I can understand the argument though.

Personally, I mix it up. Out of 25 track days this summer, around 10 are instructed. Before each instructed session, share what you want to work on with the instructor so that their feedback is congruent with your goals. Doing so will make having them in the car with you less of a lecture and more of a coaching session.

[bigjae1976]

1. Stay on street tires
2. Think about the balance of the car vs brake, turn in, apex, track out.
3. Braking...hardest part is being smooth on the brakes. Common thing I see is people threshold braking every turn. It goes back to balance of the car, track, tires, etc.

Learned a ton driving a day without ABS. Although it could be expensive if you flat spot your tires. I was definitely much faster with ABS.

[admranger]

Originally Posted by SQ13

Safety. If you want to keep your factory seats, you can get a Schroth QuickFit Pro harness and use a HANS device. I did this at my second event, as a novice.

Schroth QF Pro is a good choice for an HPDE harness that doesn't require a steel head bashing tube (roll bar) to be in your car at all times.

Originally Posted by Chris_PDX

Someone up above said, regarding safety equipment:

"This overkill for HPDE in a modern designed car. What keeps instructors safe is students who check their ego at the gate, listen to their instructors, and keep their cars in top mechanical condition. "

Just, no.

I'll save you some time...it was me. The old fart. The one that instructed for ~2 decades and raced for one decade. But that's not important, what is important is the risk calculation. What's the most dangerous part of a track weekend? Getting to and from the track with all the civilian drivers.

My comment was on the roll bar (for the most part) so "just yes".

If the car is trailered to the track, never mind and carry on.

Schroth QF Pro harnesses are a fine choice for HPDE. Regular race harnesses only work with fixed back seats and if you put those in you need to put in a roll bar. You need the roll bar to prevent the setback from going backwards (you do have a seat back brace in the car, right?) and to get the belts installed within the allowable angle range of the belts (over the seat and down the shoulders has a specific, allowable angle range).

If you drive your car to the track and commute in it, a roll bar presents a significantly higher risk to your health. You spend more time in the car off track than on track (assuming above conditions) and you're much less safe on the roadways than on the track (accidents per mile), assuming you run w/a decent HPDE group that exerts control over the participants.

My sister got whiplash when we were rear ended at a stop sign at about 10mph. If there'd have been a roll bar in the car it may have been a head injury on top of the whiplash.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by admranger

Schroth QF Pro is a good choice for an HPDE harness that doesn't require a steel head bashing tube (roll bar) to be in your car at all times.

I'll save you some time...it was me. The old fart. The one that instructed for ~2 decades and raced for one decade. But that's not important, what is important is the risk calculation. What's the most dangerous part of a track weekend? Getting to and from the track with all the civilian drivers.

My comment was on the roll bar (for the most part) so "just yes".

If the car is trailered to the track, never mind and carry on.

Schroth QF Pro harnesses are a fine choice for HPDE. Regular race harnesses only work with fixed back seats and if you put those in you need to put in a roll bar. You need the roll bar to prevent the setback from going backwards (you do have a seat back brace in the car, right?) and to get the belts installed within the allowable angle range of the belts (over the seat and down the shoulders has a specific, allowable angle range).

If you drive your car to the track and commute in it, a roll bar presents a significantly higher risk to your health. You spend more time in the car off track than on track (assuming above conditions) and you're much less safe on the roadways than on the track (accidents per mile), assuming you run w/a decent HPDE group that exerts control over the participants.

My sister got whiplash when we were rear ended at a stop sign at about 10mph. If there'd have been a roll bar in the car it may have been a head injury on top of the whiplash.

The forum is so valuable when we get range of contributions influenced by a range of experiences. Like investing in the stock market, it is ALWAYS the individual responsibility to take all input and synthesize the correct answer appropriate to specific individual.

I like this answer very much because I am debating (with myself) about the cage or harness bar.

Given my objective of keeping the car mods to as stealth as possible, the roll cage was not on my agenda, but safety is and I was thinking one sided. track safety. So role cage was entering my thoughts. It is easy to get carried away when one watch Formula One races and daydream about the possibilities of careers in the after life.

So for me, it will have to be BK harness bar and can be stowed out of the way when on the street and the OEM 3-point is kept functional.

It is my long winded way to say thank you @admranger for your point of view

[DreamTime]

Originally Posted by admranger

Schroth QF Pro is a good choice for an HPDE harness that doesn't require a steel head bashing tube (roll bar) to be in your car at all times.

I'll save you some time...it was me. The old fart. The one that instructed for ~2 decades and raced for one decade. But that's not important, what is important is the risk calculation. What's the most dangerous part of a track weekend? Getting to and from the track with all the civilian drivers.

My comment was on the roll bar (for the most part) so "just yes".

If the car is trailered to the track, never mind and carry on.

Schroth QF Pro harnesses are a fine choice for HPDE. Regular race harnesses only work with fixed back seats and if you put those in you need to put in a roll bar. You need the roll bar to prevent the setback from going backwards (you do have a seat back brace in the car, right?) and to get the belts installed within the allowable angle range of the belts (over the seat and down the shoulders has a specific, allowable angle range).

If you drive your car to the track and commute in it, a roll bar presents a significantly higher risk to your health. You spend more time in the car off track than on track (assuming above conditions) and you're much less safe on the roadways than on the track (accidents per mile), assuming you run w/a decent HPDE group that exerts control over the participants.

My sister got whiplash when we were rear ended at a stop sign at about 10mph. If there'd have been a roll bar in the car it may have been a head injury on top of the whiplash.

Lol, steel head bashing tube... I know that's not really a funny image, but it made me laugh. I do trailer the car some of the times I go to the track, but it is primarily a street car, and will stay that way for at least the next year or so while I figure out what my next move is. Because of this, I understand a roll bar would probably not be the best choice, at least for now.

I have made zero modifications to the interior of my car. I have the rear seat removed right now so I can haul wheels, jack, tools, etc to and from the track, but I can't leave it like that permanently. Is a seat back brace something I need now? Is it something that can be in there while still retaining the functionality of the back seat when needed? I was looking at Schroth QF Pro harnesses on Bimmerworld and it said in the description "These harnesses are designed to be used with stock seats that have passed a seat back strength test." What does that mean? Do I need to test my seats, and if so, how do I do that? I feel like I ask stupid questions sometimes, but soon I will have exhausted all of the dumb newbie questions I promise.

Originally Posted by rhyary

The forum is so valuable when we get range of contributions influenced by a range of experiences. Like investing in the stock market, it is ALWAYS the individual responsibility to take all input and synthesize the correct answer appropriate to specific individual.

I agree, well said.

Originally Posted by rhyary

So for me, it will have to be BK harness bar and can be stowed out of the way when on the street and the OEM 3-point is kept functional.

I have been thinking a little about the BK harness bar too. I feel like I need to do more research on this option.

[admranger]

Originally Posted by DreamTime

I was looking at Schroth QF Pro harnesses on Bimmerworld and it said in the description "These harnesses are designed to be used with stock seats that have passed a seat back strength test." What does that mean? Do I need to test my seats, and if so, how do I do that? I feel like I ask stupid questions sometimes, but soon I will have exhausted all of the dumb newbie questions I promise.

I recommend calling Bimmerworld and asking them these questions. James and his staff can provide the answers you need. Frankly I don't know what the seat back strength test is that they are referring to. HMS motorsport is a great vendor as well. They might be able to help as well.

[DreamTime]

Originally Posted by admranger

I recommend calling Bimmerworld and asking them these questions. James and his staff can provide the answers you need. Frankly I don't know what the seat back strength test is that they are referring to. HMS motorsport is a great vendor as well. They might be able to help as well.

Yep, as soon as I replied with those questions I realized Bimmerworld was probably the best resource for me to ask. I've ordered from them a few times, and every time they have been super awesome and more than willing to talk with me at length about what I'm doing to my car and why. The guys at Turner have been very helpful too, they know who I am by their caller ID now (just like the parts dept at my local dealer) lmao. But, I would rather ask a bunch of questions as a newbie so that I understand the process(es) and prevent silly mistakes. Plus, as a girl... I like to talk about things *facepalm* lol. Lord help the unfortunate soul who starts talking to me about my car

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by admranger

I'll save you some time...it was me. The old fart. The one that instructed for ~2 decades and raced for one decade. But that's not important, what is important is the risk calculation. What's the most dangerous part of a track weekend? Getting to and from the track with all the civilian drivers.

Totally agree. The best safety system is to not hit things in the first place.
But you have people that say safety first but then want to put untested, hard, and unyielding objects in the cabin...like a harness bar. I don't find that acceptable especially with reclining seats.

Originally Posted by DreamTime

I was looking at Schroth QF Pro harnesses on Bimmerworld and it said in the description "These harnesses are designed to be used with stock seats that have passed a seat back strength test." What does that mean? Do I need to test my seats, and if so, how do I do that? I feel like I ask stupid questions sometimes, but soon I will have exhausted all of the dumb newbie questions I promise.

I would talk to HMS Motorsport, they are the expert on the quick fits.
I believe seat back strength is important because the seats have a reclining mechanism which can fail.

My argument for the quick fit pro's is you're firmly planted in the seat and you're able to control the car better. It also improves your ability to feel what the car is doing resulting (hopefully) in better car control.

The in between to a full cage is a gray area. Unless someone has crashed with a roll bar or BK harness bar with different angles of impact at varying levels of force...its all theory. I would not take that chance especially since a perfectly good, tested, and approved alternative is available - Schroth quick fits.

[DreamTime]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Totally agree. The best safety system is to not hit things in the first place.
But you have people that say safety first but then want to put untested, hard, and unyielding objects in the cabin...like a harness bar. I don't find that acceptable especially with reclining seats.



I would talk to HMS Motorsport, they are the expert on the quick fits.
I believe seat back strength is important because the seats have a reclining mechanism which can fail.

My argument for the quick fit pro's is you're firmly planted in the seat and you're able to control the car better. It also improves your ability to feel what the car is doing resulting (hopefully) in better car control.

The in between to a full cage is a gray area. Unless someone has crashed with a roll bar or BK harness bar with different angles of impact at varying levels of force...its all theory. I would not take that chance especially since a perfectly good, tested, and approved alternative is available - Schroth quick fits.

Awesome, thanks for letting me know about HMS... Not sure how I have not heard of them before, they're just a couple hours north of me. The next time I make a trip to Charlotte I might go and visit their shop. I'll call them on Monday for sure! I'm pretty much sold on the Schroth quick fit pro.

[Candide13]

Originally Posted by DreamTime

I have made zero modifications to the interior of my car. I have the rear seat removed right now so I can haul wheels, jack, tools, etc to and from the track, but I can't leave it like that permanently. .

I run Schroth QFP on both sides with the stock seats. I also bring four 275-35-18 wheels and my tools to the track in my E90, but I don't remove the back seats for that. It fits even though I am 6 foot 2 tall. So that might safe you some work.

[admranger]

Originally Posted by DreamTime

Awesome, thanks for letting me know about HMS...

(cough) Post #53 (cough)

[DreamTime]

Originally Posted by Candide13

I run Schroth QFP on both sides with the stock seats. I also bring four 275-35-18 wheels and my tools to the track in my E90, but I don't remove the back seats for that. It fits even though I am 6 foot 2 tall. So that might safe you some work.

Omg, that is awesome. How in the hell do you fit the wheels, jack, tools, and everything in there w/o removing the rear seat?? That is really kick ass. If you can do it, I can do it. I will try this again on my next trip in a few weeks. Anything to cut down on the amount of work that is required for getting ready for the track. Thanks!

Originally Posted by admranger

(cough) Post #53 (cough)

Hahahaha actually laughed out loud when I read this...

I'm so sorry. I was almost overwhelmed by the amount of awesome advice I received from everyone. It would probably be good for me to go back and read over everything again just in case I missed any other gems

[roastbeef]

Four tires across the back seat, everything else in the trunk. Enough room for two chairs, an ice chest, jack, and all my tools.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by admranger

(cough) Post #53 (cough)

Originally Posted by roastbeef

Four tires across the back seat, everything else in the trunk. Enough room for two chairs, an ice chest, jack, and all my tools.

You can get 7 in the back seat of an E90 if you're not tall. Probably not worth the effort and not sure why you would ever need to do that but it can be done.

[DreamTime]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

Four tires across the back seat, everything else in the trunk. Enough room for two chairs, an ice chest, jack, and all my tools.

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

You can get 7 in the back seat of an E90 if you're not tall. Probably not worth the effort and not sure why you would ever need to do that but it can be done.

Thanks, guys. I guess I just need to try harder. One of my main concerns is that the condition of my whole back seat area is easily 9.5/10... and I work really hard to keep it that way. I just need to be careful while loading tires in and out of there if the seat is not removed.

I have been thinking that for closer tracks, ie: Road Atlanta, AMP, CMP, the Performance Center... that I should probably just swap wheels at home and drive to the track with them on. There are 2 things for me to consider though.

1. I have found it is WAY easier to remove my spacers when my car is still relatively hot about 30 mins after my last session, vs trying to pry them off when I get home. This alone makes me want to still change my tires at the track even for close trips.

2. And, close tracks only make up a portion of my schedule, so I still need to get good at cramming all my shit in the car with no issues. My next event is about 9 hours away, just south of Pittsburg, and I don't want to waste my track tires on a long drive like that. This year I am learning just how much I will have to spend on tires and brakes, as I am using up those things much faster than last year lol. Maybe I'm over thinking it, I don't know One great thing did happen this weekend though! A friend I made at the ARPCA event I went to at WGI in May has offered me a place to stay while I'm at Pitt Race... awesome!! Seriously love my track community

[CSBM5]

Use tire totes and also a large moving blanket for the back seat. Also, if you're changing at the track, bring along a stiff brush and clean off all the rocks and grit from the tire, and then put it right into the tire tote.

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

Four tires across the back seat, everything else in the trunk. Enough room for two chairs, an ice chest, jack, and all my tools.

How? Pics or it didn't happen. I can only manage to put three wheels back there with the remaining one in the passenger seat.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by Ximian

How? Pics or it didn't happen. I can only manage to put three wheels back there with the remaining one in the passenger seat.

You aren't trying hard enough.

Four 275's. I don't have better pics of the interior and I don't particularly do it for fun, so you'll have to wait for the next track day for better interior pics.

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

You aren't trying hard enough.

Four 275's. I don't have better pics of the interior and I don't particularly do it for fun, so you'll have to wait for the next track day for better interior pics.

I am definitely not trying hard enough. Do you have the rear seats down or up?