alignment baseline + camber plates

[kolosy]

if it's isn't readily apparent from my other posts, i'm a suspension / alignment newbie from the track standpoint. i know what the things mean but not what values i want at the track.

here's what the shop sent me home with (this was their "track" baseline):



i'm running 3DM's Ohlin dedicated track suspension setup. I believe the camber plates are currently maxed out but I could be wrong, only took a cursory glance.

The front camber seems excessive, doesn't it? I've read of people running closer to -2, but maybe I'm oversampling a single thread.

Also, a really dumb question but I'll ask it -- If i adjust the camber plates, how do I know what the new angle is, and do I need to do a full alignment after doing so?

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by kolosy

if it's isn't readily apparent from my other posts, i'm a suspension / alignment newbie from the track standpoint. i know what the things mean but not what values i want at the track.

here's what the shop sent me home with (this was their "track" baseline):

Attachment 3269684

i'm running 3DM's Ohlin dedicated track suspension setup. I believe the camber plates are currently maxed out but I could be wrong, only took a cursory glance.

The front camber seems excessive, doesn't it? I've read of people running closer to -2, but maybe I'm oversampling a single thread.

Also, a really dumb question but I'll ask it -- If i adjust the camber plates, how do I know what the new angle is, and do I need to do a full alignment after doing so?

3.25 maxed out sounds a little less than typical. I am at -3.45* and not completely maxed out because of the strut tower itself.

if you change camber then yes you absolutely need an alignment. camber impacts toe quite a bit up front.

also, yes, -3.25* is very excessive for street driving. If you daily this car then you might want to consider a more conservative setting like -2.0 or -2.5*. There is no perfectly accurate way to tell how much the camber will change because it depends on your ride height and caster and other factors... kind of have to make a decent amount of change at the camber plate and then put it on the alignment rack. Or, on a COMPELTELY FLAT surface put a camber cube on the rotor (you can get one at harbor freight for cheap). Adjust down to 2.0 then go in for an alignment.

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by bbnks2

3.25 maxed out sounds a little less than typical. I am at -3.45* and not completely maxed out because of the strut tower itself.

if you change camber then yes you absolutely need an alignment. camber impacts toe quite a bit up front.

also, yes, -3.25* is very excessive for street driving. If you daily this car then you might want to consider a more conservative setting like -2.0 or -2.5*. There is no perfectly accurate way to tell how much the camber will change because it depends on your ride height and caster and other factors... kind of have to make a decent amount of change at the camber plate and then put it on the alignment rack. Or, on a COMPELTELY FLAT surface put a camber cube on the rotor (you can get one at harbor freight for cheap). Adjust down to 2.0 then go in for an alignment.

cool thanks. i'm going for track only but drive to the track.

here's what the plate looks like from the strut tower:

[spammysammich]

Your plate is rotated incorrectly. You’ll be adjusting caster.

It’s no wonder your camber is so far in, there is nowhere for it to go.

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by spammysammich

Your plate is rotated incorrectly. You’ll be adjusting caster.

It’s no wonder your camber is so far in, there is nowhere for it to go.

oh ffs. so much for "race shop that does BMWs"

[spammysammich]

Well maybe not. Maybe they are floating sandwich style camber adjustments. I’m not too familiar with öhlins top mounts.

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by spammysammich

Well maybe not. Maybe they are floating sandwich style camber adjustments. I’m not too familiar with öhlins top mounts.

i sent Barry @ 3DM a note before I blow up the shop. there's an arrow etched into the plate that says "front right", pointing to the front, but I don't know if that means car front or front tire.

[derbo]

Originally Posted by spammysammich

Well maybe not. Maybe they are floating sandwich style camber adjustments. I’m not too familiar with öhlins top mounts.

Those are caster adjustments. Ohlins Dedicated uses Vorshlag plates. The slots are for caster with the little allen screws. The bottom plate slides left to right.

[spammysammich]

Vorschlag top mounts? They might just be that way. Other pics I’ve seen of them look similar. They adjust a lot of caster as well as camber.

[spammysammich]

Originally Posted by derbo

Those are caster adjustments. Ohlins Dedicated uses Vorshlag plates. The slots are for caster with the little allen screws. The bottom plate slides left to right.

I see. I stand corrected.

[derbo]

Originally Posted by spammysammich

I see. I stand corrected.

It's okay! I was looking at it like OH SHIT too haha

[kolosy]

whew. trust in local race shop: somewhat restored.

but yeah, i was wondering the same thing just hoped they knew what they were doing.

[spammysammich]

I had some whiteline mounts a while back that adjusted similarly but didn’t have the Allen screws if I recall correctly.

[spammysammich]

It’s amazing what a difference in steering weight and feel even just a half a degree extra of caster will give you. You’re in for a treat but whooooo boy can suspension be a hell of a rabbit hole.

Then you’ll hit a sweet spot or get bored of trying setups and never adjust them again lol.

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by spammysammich

It’s amazing what a difference in steering weight and feel even just a half a degree extra of caster will give you. You’re in for a treat but whooooo boy can suspension be a hell of a rabbit hole.

Then you’ll hit a sweet spot or get bored of trying setups and never adjust them again lol.

so that's one of the things i was getting at with the original q -- are you going in for an alignment every time you want to try something, or does having camber plates (obv its only for camber) save a trip there? first answer indicates it's alignment every time, but thought i'd double check...

[spammysammich]

I tried to do the diamond scribe thing and mark my top hats for street and track alignments but the changes in toe were just too difficult to adjust for by myself. Also I never ended up tracking the car (2005 STI). Ran out of money and time then eventually sold the car for the hatch version and turned that into a work car.

I’ve got coilovers on both my cars now; M3 has clubsports and STI has Racecomp Superstreets. Guess how often I change my alignment and damper settings to match my conditions.

I’m sure the tire gurus here can give better advice on actual numbers but anything past -2.5 degrees on the street seems a little much.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by kolosy

so that's one of the things i was getting at with the original q -- are you going in for an alignment every time you want to try something, or does having camber plates (obv its only for camber) save a trip there? first answer indicates it's alignment every time, but thought i'd double check...

Initial Setup for Track: Maximize the camber adjustment on the top hat, adjust Front Lower Control Arms (FLCA) to set up your track-spec camber settings. (if you don't have FLCA same applies to just having the top hat maxed out)

Fine-Tuning for Street: When transitioning to street driving, adjust the camber settings using the top hat.

By following this method, you can easily switch between track and street camber settings, by just maxing out the top hat, for track camber, and dialing back to your marker for street.

[DRLane]

kolosy If your “street driving” is to/from the track vs weekend or daily then just leave it alone. That camber isn’t harming you or causing excessive wear on the street.

However, until you’re “fast enough” through corners to necessitate that negative camber you might find you’re wearing the insides faster than the shoulders (which is what you’re trying to correct with this alignment). Ideally you’d measure temps but likely overkill for now. Just look at the tires and if the insides are wearing faster than the shoulder either reduce camber or get some instruction to ensure you’re not dragging the tires through bad steering and throttle habits (this will be most likely for a while).

Regarding alignments, if you hit a bunch or curbs or spin, you’ll likely need another alignment to correct the toe.

[bbnks2]

I would not waste your time trying to "mark" the camber plate for a "street" and "track" setting. The toe change is DRASTIC. You'll then also need a set of toe plates to measure toe at the track and you'll have to change your tie rods at the track... something I am not sensing you want to do. IF you change your camber without touching the toe you'll be setting yourself up for failure.

Toe has a huge impact on corner entry, handling, and tire wear. IF you ADD CAMBER at the track you'll also be adding TOE IN. Toe in is not desirable up front for performance. You want 0 toe or toe OUT. Especially if you're running more aggressive camber greater than 3*.

In order to be able to change camber at the track you would have to have a lot of toe-out daily driving.... then you would end up with 0 or slightly positive toe when you add the camber at the track. That is the opposite direction you want to be going. You want toe-in for street driving stability and toe-out to aid in agility and turn in at the track.

TLDR; your alignment is fine as is! drive it and have fun at the track. Maybe add a bit more rear camber depending on how the car is handling.

[kolosy]

sweet -- thanks all. and yeah DRLane i'm treating it as a track only car that i drive to the track, so as long as i'm not going to tear up my tires getting there (road america is probably farthest at ~150 miles away) i'd rather leave it as is.

[rg1220]

Originally Posted by bbnks2

I would not waste your time trying to "mark" the camber plate for a "street" and "track" setting. The toe change is DRASTIC. You'll then also need a set of toe plates to measure toe at the track and you'll have to change your tie rods at the track... something I am not sensing you want to do. IF you change your camber without touching the toe you'll be setting yourself up for failure.....

Toe plates and/or string alignment is accurate enough to adjust toe?

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by rg1220

Toe plates and/or string alignment is accurate enough to adjust toe?

String is the gold standard! But as with anything you have to be consistent and precise in setup and measurement.