Advancing to laps without traction control

[CamasM3e93]

My setup: e90 with stock suspension running 275 square 18s with Nitto nt01s and Harrop supercharger. I've done 4 events so far this year and another ~4 or more to go.

My events are HPDEs at Portland International Raceway which is a 'horsepower track' with two long straightaways broken up by a chicane on one side and a triple turn on the back stretch. I run the car during the laps on MDM euro traction control settings but with the Harrop torque I have way too much wheel spin in the corners and will even set off traction control in 3rd gear @ ~85mph as the engine pushes past 7k rpms in straightaways. Consequently the biggest barrier to my times and personal enjoyment with this setup is traction control cutting throttle.

I'm tempted to move to doing laps with traction control completely off but am wary because 1 - I like the car and don't want to total it, 2 - the first time I did it on the road an attempted 180 U-turn quickly turned into a 360 (before supercharging) and 3 - I am not sure how to move toward that in a way that is safe for everyone on a shared track.

For you guys that track e9x, are you running with traction control off? Any suggestions on how best to transition to no traction control driving? I'm open to suggestion that this is a bad idea.

[amg6975]

Take a couple sessions and focus on where the MDM limit is. See if you can approach it without setting it off, then see if you can just gently kick it on on purpose. Once you can reliably find that line then you're ready to send it without DSC on.

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by CamasM3e93

My setup: e90 with stock suspension running 275 square 18s with Nitto nt01s and Harrop supercharger. I've done 4 events so far this year and another ~4 or more to go.

My events are HPDEs at Portland International Raceway which is a 'horsepower track' with two long straightaways broken up by a chicane on one side and a triple turn on the back stretch. I run the car during the laps on MDM euro traction control settings but with the Harrop torque I have way too much wheel spin in the corners and will even set off traction control in 3rd gear @ ~85mph as the engine pushes past 7k rpms in straightaways. Consequently the biggest barrier to my times and personal enjoyment with this setup is traction control cutting throttle.

I'm tempted to move to doing laps with traction control completely off but am wary because 1 - I like the car and don't want to total it, 2 - the first time I did it on the road an attempted 180 U-turn quickly turned into a 360 (before supercharging) and 3 - I am not sure how to move toward that in a way that is safe for everyone on a shared track.

For you guys that track e9x, are you running with traction control off? Any suggestions on how best to transition to no traction control driving? I'm open to suggestion that this is a bad idea.

Two strategies to consider either independently or jointly.
1) In order to be more comfortable at the limit, or over the limit (sliding), take a car control class at PIR (https://www.prodrive.net/car-control...driving-course)
.

.
2) Add more rear axle tire tractive grip (stickier tires) to tame the rears

Investing in the driver is the best way to be safer while at the same time going faster. This can be as simple as investing in car control classes that teach how to manage oversteer or finding a large vacant parking lot after a rain storm (or snow storm) and driving in circles to teach yourself how to steer the car with the throttle by provoking and managing oversteer.

PS: Consider this PIR class also:
https://www.prodrive.net/high-perfor...driving-course
.

.

[Tommysalami]

Do autocross where you can spin and be fine

[CamasM3e93]

Originally Posted by DrFerry

Two strategies to consider either independently or jointly.
1) In order to be more comfortable at the limit, or over the limit (sliding), take a car control class at PIR (https://www.prodrive.net/car-control...driving-course)
.

.
2) Add more rear axle tire tractive grip (stickier tires) to tame the rears

Investing in the driver is the best way to be safer while at the same time going faster. This can be as simple as investing in car control classes that teach how to manage oversteer or finding a large vacant parking lot after a rain storm (or snow storm) and driving in circles to teach yourself how to steer the car with the throttle by provoking and managing oversteer.

PS: Consider this PIR class also:
https://www.prodrive.net/high-perfor...driving-course
.

.

Prodrive (and a coach in the car) is one of the HPDE's I am using this season, hoping to skill up to the intermediate group for their cheaper coach-free sessions by the end of the year. I was just inquiring with them about the skid course, as you suggest, but they use a front wheel drive car and I didn't think it would translate well to 500whp rwd. What do you think about that?

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by CamasM3e93

Prodrive (and a coach in the car) is one of the HPDE's I am using this season, hoping to skill up to the intermediate group for their cheaper coach-free sessions by the end of the year. I was just inquiring with them about the skid course, as you suggest, but they use a front wheel drive car and I didn't think it would translate well to 500whp rwd. What do you think about that?

Yes, the skid car in the video is a FWD Camry but the hydraulic skid system induces considerable oversteer (as seen in the video). The skills learned consist of middle ear balance system perception - in order to sense yaw angle and yaw velocity - as well as motor control muscle memory (how to react with the right steering and throttle inputs) in order to counter steer and manage rear axle traction with the throttle. Those same skills are used when managing oversteer with RWD and FWD and even AWD. In an oversteer situation the driver has the apply throttle to cause (force) more rearward weight transfer (thereby adding load and increasing tractive grip), but only adding just enough throttle to keep the weight on the rear tires and not to over power them into inducing a spin. This is the essence of drifting, aka managing oversteer with the throttle. Yes, I think taking the PIR car control class in a FWD car is worth doing, and most if not all of what you will learn will translate to your car. It's like learning to dance or swim. Once the brain has the program in RAM you won't forget what to do and the reactions become second nature (subconscious i.e. drifting while eating a sandwich). IF PIR has a skidpad class with a RWD training car then that would be ideal but if not the skid car is great for learning what to do as already mentioned. Go for it.

[Ximian]

Once thing to consider is the track surface, especially bumps. As far as engine power, my car is stock. At my home track, there is a banked turn that's taken at either full throttle or nearly there and it's totally fine even for novices. However, there are bumps you can go over that can unsettle the car.

When I drive in MDM, that's the only place it kicks in. In such as case, it's more about avoiding rather than adapting. Keep that in mind as you practice.

Since you're supercharged and getting wheel spin at high RPMs and speeds, sounds like you need either very sticky tires or to use less of the throttle pedal.

[dogbone]

I drove with MDM on track for several years. My car is also supercharged.

The best way that I found for me to start getting comfortable with traction control off was to rent a skid pad and slide the car around. The skid pad is a fantastic (safe) arena to learn what the car feels like as the rear is letting go. And then you can start working on catching it.

In Southern California, Willow Springs has the Balcony Skid pad that can be rented for a very reasonable price. I don't know what's available in Portland as fas as skid pads, but I would recommend trying to find one up there.

In my opinion, learning to catch a car at slow speeds on a skid pad translates very well to learning how to deal with a car that loses rear grip on track at higher speeds.

I know it sounds silly, but one of the most challenging things you can do on a skid pad is to put a single cone down and try to drift as tight as you can around it. You get to that point, you will not have problems with a tail that steps out on track.

[omgzirra_exe]

i own a few cars, and i honestly found that just doing drift events with my 'cheaper' is300 with a single 1jz swap

helped translate to my E92M driving on course.

as well as taking my E92M to more autox events where i can full send, with mdm off, on events that are "no cone pick up"

in my area when the day is ended and there is sun light it's anything goes so we can start drifting for fun.