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05-23-2023, 10:36 AM | #1 |
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120k miles, 292 cams, stroker, or SC?
Hey all - I have a 2009 e92 M3. Bought it in 2011 and have used it as my daily ever since. Oil has been changed every 7500, rod bearings are done, VANOS replaced, got a new DCT transmission from BMW at 50k miles (thanks warranty!). All things considered, very little issues and a lot of fun.
I've done just about every bolt on I thought made sense. Apex wheels, suspension, brembo brakes, ARH headers/Xpipe, corsa muffler, dinan pully, eventuri intake, evolve tune. Recently I've been stuck about what to do now... I like using it as my DD because it is just so practical and still pretty special and unique. You can't really buy anything new these days that is anything like it as far as I can tell. Here are the 3 options I came up after digging through the forums here over the weekend (maybe there are other options? yes, doing nothing is always an option): 40k option - Do I pull the trigger on a stoker from Carbahn? However, from the threads I've read here, is there much actual power gained? The earlier tests I've seen on this forum showed not really, the more current data shows there are significant gains with camshafts. But is it the stroker or really just the cams making the difference? Can I just get a set of 292 cams and keep my stock engine? Or is a stroker required to get the power out of the cams? Also, when boring out the engine and changing the stroke, you seem to now have a much less reliable engine over stock. I guess the question is, how much less reliable? 12k option - Do I just throw on a SC? I'm at 120k miles though and I'd like some occasional track days. Most folks, including my shop that races BMWs, say SC is just not a good option for track work because of heat soak. Is there something I can do to a 120k miles engine to make a SC less risky? Do I rebuild the engine then SC it? How much money do I need to spend on more cooling to do some track days? 5-7k option - Throw on some 292 cams and call it a day? There are a few good threads here on this but not much data I've seen on actual gains from pre cams and post cams. There are several posts swearing there is nothing to be gained with cams on the S65... Also, it sounds like a special tune is needed and who can do that, am I going to have to shop the car off somewhere? Anyway, I'd definitely appreciate any feedback, especially if you have been down any of these paths. I'll add that just because one can buy something doesn't mean they like throwing money away, it still needs to make sense on the value/fun end of the equation
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05-23-2023, 12:05 PM | #2 |
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If I were in your shoes, I would try a much less expensive option first such as custom tune from Randy at Epic and see what he is comfortable with. Maybe he has had succes with cams and a higher (8,800+) rev limit. Maybe you could try a tune with a methanol injection option which provises a nice hit of octane and lower IATs which, if tuned right, can help NA engines a bit and you don't have to worry about always having the most expensive gasoline.
Anyway a before and after dyno measurement would be nice and so would a "dragy" run if you have a good place to test acceleration.
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05-24-2023, 03:14 AM | #4 |
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I’m also debating whether I wanna go the 292 Cam route or not. I have all the bolt ons already minus long tube headers, which I will also install if I go 292 route.
After all my research, it seems like to maintain long term reliability + max engine performance + everyday driveability 292 Cams is the way to go. Now how much performance gains are to be had by upgrading to 292 Schrick Cams is debatable. I really like how the 292 Schrick Cam upgrade is pretty much plug and play without having to mess with VANOS. Obviously a custom tune will be mandatory but that’s pretty minor. Maybe I should just buy a S65B44, do an engine swap and call it a day…🤔 Thx for starting this thread! |
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05-24-2023, 09:03 AM | #5 |
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I emailed with Randy at EPIC and from his experience, and assuming proper flow, cams are worth about 15 hp on a stock 4.0 S65.
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05-24-2023, 05:02 PM | #6 | |
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Gosh what meager outcome for a not cheap intervention. My understanding is that the horsepower gains with cams is at the expense of torque so depending on how you intend to use the car it may not satisfy your butt dyno. May make sense for track driving and time trials but a disappointment for daily drivers. |
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05-25-2023, 01:00 AM | #7 | |
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05-25-2023, 07:12 AM | #8 | |
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05-26-2023, 09:53 AM | #10 |
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+15 hp if the engine is already FBO making near 400 wheel would be worth it to me. Especially if the tuner can safely manage a 8,800rpm rev limit/fuel cut.
I often consider something like this but also with considerable weight reduction. Stock, this is a 350 wheel (dynojet) and 3600 lb car. Mine is stock and on the vbox/dragy traps 113.X 1/4 mile as a reference. While we don't drag race, the 1/4 mile trap is a good reference point. At 415 wheel and 3300 lbs this is a completely different car and is getting a lot closer to 991.1 GT3 power to weight which is approx 435 wheel (dynojet) and 3150 lbs. I did a dragy run on mine the 1/4 mile trap was 126.X mph. For me, this was more than enough power at the track. I think an e9X at 415/3300 could be over 120mph trap. Not sure what is the all-in price point to get an otherwise stock e92 to 415/3300 but realistically $25k-$30k ?? which I think is well worth it considering the other options for a nearly 9k rpm NA 4 liter screamer 120+ trap car.
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05-26-2023, 05:03 PM | #11 |
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Thoughts on stroker with or without the 292 cams? Carbahn recommended without the 292 cams so I don't give up the extra torque down low. However, something just seems cool about max HP on a NA motor.
Seems about 40lbs at 4000rpm vs 30hp at around 8000rpm based on their dyno. Granted, that's 100 octane fuel. You can also see the hp falling off at high rpm without the cams which I think SYT_Shadow has commented on in his threads. https://carbahn.com/product/s65-4-6l...-engine-kit-2/
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08-07-2023, 11:07 PM | #12 | |
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08-08-2023, 02:51 AM | #13 |
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I would never build a stroker without the 292 cams. Carbahn did a great job on the stroker but they don't even offer tuning for it.
With 292 cams thr stroker has plenty of low end torque due to double vanos and proper tuning. If anything, I wish 304 cams were available that maintained double vanos because I would have used those. |
08-08-2023, 05:52 AM | #14 |
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i've come to realize people who say they want to take the car to an occasional track day usually never end up going to the track, put a ess-625 kit on the car and the car will be 10000x more fun on the street.
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08-08-2023, 01:07 PM | #15 | |
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Stroker with cams and a karbonius airbox is really something |
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08-08-2023, 04:37 PM | #16 | |
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or give up and just supercharge it (been driving on the street more these days than on a race track) what ever it is... it wont happen until i need to do my VCG again or my VC leaks lol.
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08-09-2023, 06:07 AM | #17 |
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correct these two things are not in the same ballpark and not comparable so why compare them, a stroker with cams and a karbonius airbox is what $20k+? A bolt on 625 kit these days is trading for $6000 at most plus another $1k for a tune. not taking away from the greatness of a stroker with a carbon airbox, just making the point of accessibility to the guy with the 120k mile M3.
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