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      06-20-2018, 10:14 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSilk View Post
With respect to the criticism of carbon ceramic brakes for track use, I would just point out that both Formula 1 and LMP class LeMans race cars use carbon ceramic brakes.
F1 brakes aren't carbon-ceramic. They are carbon-carbon, which isn't useable in street cars for various reasons, including operating temperature range, extreme cost, the fact that they take forevvveerrr to produce (~9 months for F1 discs), short life, etc. Not 100% sure but I believe LMP cars use the same. Carbon-ceramic discs were actually a development of compromise to bring carbon brake technology into street cars rather than a track optimized technology.
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      06-20-2018, 12:07 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romemmy View Post

Please, get specific. I want to know why you think CCB’s do not work for heavy track use OTHER than cost. I don’t agree that BBK’s have the same heat capacity as CCB’s - a CCB rotor can handle 1200-1400 degrees, a steel rotor (stock, BBK or made on Mars) can only handle around 800 degrees. We’ve already agreed that weight is an advantage (Porsche claim a 50% drop in unsprung weight). And - drum roll - the Porsche GT2RS comes with PCCB (I couldn’t even find an option to downgrade them)!! A $300K track car that they assume people that own it can afford the brake changes - when the best is needed and cost is not a factor, carbon ceramics are spec’d. All McLarens comes with CCB’s, as does the Ferrari 488 (including racing versions). Oh, and Andreas Preuninger, the man behind the GT3, has been quoted saying that the PCCB option is a must-have on the GT3 and GT3RS. I suspect it was omitted from these as the standard option due to most small race teams not having the money to replace CCB’s every couple of races, and the GT3RS is very popular at the club racer level as a relatively cheap ready-to-go race car. It’s called compromise - those drivers I’m sure would love to have PCCB’s for the extra margin of safety, consistency and fade resistance in an endurance racing environment.
Steel rotors can very much handle more than 800 degrees F. Hell, my brake track pads are designed to handle over 1500 degrees F... "Steel" is kinda a misnomer for brake rotors. "Steel" brake rotors are actually made of cast iron.

Besides weight savings, there is no advantage to a CCB on track even if cost is no object. And Porsche race teams do not use CCBs on their race cars.

Porsche saying it is a "must have" option is pure marketing. They want you to spend $10k+ more to get PCCB so they can make more money off of you. Sure, you get less brake dust and it works a bit better on the street but that's all the PCCB gets you. It's fine to use on the track as well, but offers no advantage.
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      06-20-2018, 02:14 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
The 991 GT3 RS guy I chased down this weekend has a 991 GT3, 991 GT3 RS and a 488 Challenge car. I think he can afford to change CCBs but has steel brakes. However, if you have more money than he does...
I can't really talk to how much money he has - maybe he bought them cash, maybe he gets it via something like Club Sportiva (I know a few guys who track club exotic cars, and the clubs always switch to steel brakes for cost reasons). Does he even track the Ferrari? The 488 comes with carbon ceramics, so he'd have to have changed them for cost reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Cost is not the only disadvantage. Feel is significantly worse. Brake feel is a pretty important attribute.
Yeah, they feel different - but you get used to them. They are consistent though, so feel doesn't change much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Another issue is fragility. If you whack the rotor with a wheel you have to replace it. With tires being changed every weekend or multiple times per weekend it's tough to never do that.
lol - really? A disadvantage is that you might break them by hitting them? I'm sure the Carbon-Carbon's in F1 are similar in fragility - they seem to do okay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Driven hard, CCBs get destroyed faster than steel rotors. They work really well with inexperienced drivers which are of course not fast.
You make a lot of assumptions based on skill... So my 20 years racing I must be an amateur.. How many hundreds of years experience do you have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Good BBKs have no performance issues driven hard. You do not need any ducting. So 'more resistance to temperature' can provide zero advantage, much in the same way that after eating ten pounds of beef you have no use for an extra six thousand pounds someone wants to feed you.
So now it has to be a "good BBK"... and it doesn't need ducting?? Yours must be made of unobtainium, not steel/iron.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
The GT2 RS is definitely not the tracki-est car Porsche has. That would be the Cup, but if we ignore the Cup, it's likely the GT3 RS with the NA engine is the most track oriented.
(regular humans cannot handle 700hp, much less at the track)
I must not be a regular human then... As I said already, the GT3(RS) is bought by club racers. They are cash strapped and prefer steel. PCCB is an option and Porsche recommend them for racing, if you can afford them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Weight continues to be an advantage, we are aligned. jritt@essex may be able to shed some light on how much their system weighs vs the M4's CCB option.


If your point is that someone exists who has enough money to spend 10k in one weekend on brake rotors and feels this is worth it because of the reduction in weight... well ok, but then they still have to deal with bad feel and fragility. And still have zero brake performance advantage over a proper BBK.


To summarize:
-If you're slow--> CCB is a great option
-If you're fast--> you need a good steel BBK. CCBs would only work for a mythical situation where someone is spending 10k per weekend trying to make a point that they 'can' be used hard
-There is zero 'extra performance' to be had in terms of braking with a CCB over steel

'Can' of course is a relative concept. We 'can' build a bridge out of glass, but doing so would extremely stupid. So yeah, CCBs 'can' be used hard... and perhaps they are... in the same universe where we build glass bridges.
Again, making assumptions that because I'm on CCB's I'm slow... I would love to see one of those Miata's that are quicker than me though, since I can't seem to find them locally...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Steel rotors can very much handle more than 800 degrees F. Hell, my brake track pads are designed to handle over 1500 degrees F... "Steel" is kinda a misnomer for brake rotors. "Steel" brake rotors are actually made of cast iron.
I was talking celcius - not farenheit. 800C is 1472F. Also, yeah, you'll see I was putting steel/iron in some places - I know they are made of cast iron typically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Besides weight savings, there is no advantage to a CCB on track even if cost is no object. And Porsche race teams do not use CCBs on their race cars.

Porsche saying it is a "must have" option is pure marketing. They want you to spend $10k+ more to get PCCB so they can make more money off of you. Sure, you get less brake dust and it works a bit better on the street but that's all the PCCB gets you. It's fine to use on the track as well, but offers no advantage.

So I guess Porsche is lying:

https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/9...s/safety/pccb/

Here is what they say (emphasis mine):

Quote:
Motorsport technology in a car on the road: Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB). In numerous race series, including the Porsche Mobil 1 Supercup, it has been proven to withstand the harshest demands of the track.
Quote:
PCCB enables shorter braking distances in even the toughest road and race conditions. Safety under high-speed braking is also improved thanks to its excellent fade resistance.
Yes, the models they sell to the public have standard steel brakes as the basic offering - again, most small race teams that race almost every weekend cannot afford PCCB. They always have an upgrade option though, and unless they are lying, the Porsche race team use PCCB in the Cup cars during the Supercup.

The weight savings in themselves are significant, but I contest that in every other way they are as good as or better than iron too, except cost. I have yet to be convinced otherwise. You guys have provided zero references too. Claiming that the manufacturer is lying for money reasons doesn't fly - if all they cared about was money then they would put PCCB as standard on the GT3 and claim it was racing technology, right?

Thanks,

Z.
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      06-20-2018, 02:31 PM   #70
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CCB hasn’t caught on in real actual racing yet. It’s seemingly either iron or carbon carbon. Unless the 2018 cars are changed the 2017 supercup cars used iron rotors

I’d rather have the lighter carbon brake package for a street car. Lightness in the wheels/tires/brakes especially really helps a car feel better everyday.
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      06-20-2018, 02:41 PM   #71
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For what it's worth...

All of my track friends either specced their cars with Steel, or swapped to Steel from CCB. They can all afford to replace the CCB setup if desired, at the same intervals as they do with Steel.

A proper Steel BBK can go toe to toe with CCB all day long.


-------
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...onversion.html

I bookmarked that a while ago^

Not the most recent article, but the cars mentioned are still on track today so it's relevant.
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      06-20-2018, 03:18 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romemmy View Post
I can't really talk to how much money he has - maybe he bought them cash, maybe he gets it via something like Club Sportiva (I know a few guys who track club exotic cars, and the clubs always switch to steel brakes for cost reasons). Does he even track the Ferrari? The 488 comes with carbon ceramics, so he'd have to have changed them for cost reasons.
He does track the 488.

There was a 488 with CCBs on track last weekend. They were demoted from black to white as they were too slow. I'm sure their CCBs did just fine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by romemmy View Post
lol - really? A disadvantage is that you might break them by hitting them? I'm sure the Carbon-Carbon's in F1 are similar in fragility - they seem to do okay.
I don't know what's funny.
Yes, having something that gets hit often when replacing tires and wheels and which costs $2k per hit is a disadvantage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by romemmy View Post
You make a lot of assumptions based on skill... So my 20 years racing I must be an amateur.. How many hundreds of years experience do you have?
I meet a lot of people who have been 'racing' for a long time. That one is able to participate in a race has no correlation to them being fast.
You're the first person who seems to believe CCBs are a great option for serious track people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by romemmy View Post
So now it has to be a "good BBK"... and it doesn't need ducting?? Yours must be made of unobtainium, not steel/iron.
This is not the first time in this discussion where there seem to be reading comprehension issues.

The very first time I mentioned a BBK I said a 'high level BBK' or something to that effect.

Correct, you do not need ducting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by romemmy View Post
I must not be a regular human then... As I said already, the GT3(RS) is bought by club racers. They are cash strapped and prefer steel. PCCB is an option and Porsche recommend them for racing, if you can afford them.
You're right, the 991 GT3(RS) guys I meet are quite poor. I see them eating in Subway breakfast/lunch/dinner. It must suck to be them.



Quote:
Originally Posted by romemmy View Post
Marketing is lying? What? This has never happened before!!!
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      06-20-2018, 03:19 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartledoo View Post
F1 brakes aren't carbon-ceramic. They are carbon-carbon, which isn't useable in street cars for various reasons, including operating temperature range, extreme cost, the fact that they take forevvveerrr to produce (~9 months for F1 discs), short life, etc. Not 100% sure but I believe LMP cars use the same. Carbon-ceramic discs were actually a development of compromise to bring carbon brake technology into street cars rather than a track optimized technology.
You sir are correct
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      06-20-2018, 04:55 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romemmy View Post


So I guess Porsche is lying:

https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/9...s/safety/pccb/

Here is what they say (emphasis mine):


Yes, the models they sell to the public have standard steel brakes as the basic offering - again, most small race teams that race almost every weekend cannot afford PCCB. They always have an upgrade option though, and unless they are lying, the Porsche race team use PCCB in the Cup cars during the Supercup.

The weight savings in themselves are significant, but I contest that in every other way they are as good as or better than iron too, except cost. I have yet to be convinced otherwise. You guys have provided zero references too. Claiming that the manufacturer is lying for money reasons doesn't fly - if all they cared about was money then they would put PCCB as standard on the GT3 and claim it was racing technology, right?

Thanks,

Z.
Porsche using/requiring PCCB for supercup is pure marketing. What better than to promote PCCB sales than to use them in own one make series? The race teams have no choice in the matter - Porsche requires them to all use the same hardware.

https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...formation.html

Quote:
I was in Monaco this weekend and I spoke to a few CUP car teams there.
Supercup is mandatory PCCB.

-The mechanics said that they lose a day bedding them in, they only last 3 weekends and they prefer steel because cheaper and work just as well and last longer. Just their 0.02c.
I have no doubt CCB is possibly the future of all street car brakes once the prices come down. The advantages in a street car are good and if the price is right, we'll see them on Honda Civics and other cars soon. Remember, disc brakes were once the domain of ultra exotic cars, now they're common on every car.

Once it hits that kind of pricing and volume, CCB may very well be used on track as much as steel brakes... but given the delicacy, pricing and great alternatives, there's no need for it on track today.
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      06-20-2018, 06:19 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
So this thread is asking E90 owners what they think of F80 interior quality? You will struggle to get un biased opinions as there are fanboys on here who think the E9x is the second coming.

There is a lot to fault the direction of BMW at the moment, but I don't think quality is declining. The F30 / F80 BMW's I've sat in felt like high quality items. Never driven an f8x so can't comment on the handling, would love to drive one though.
Have you sat in the backseat of an F30 sedan? It feels like a rental back there. Cringe. Pretty subjective, I know.
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      06-20-2018, 07:47 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlow98 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
So this thread is asking E90 owners what they think of F80 interior quality? You will struggle to get un biased opinions as there are fanboys on here who think the E9x is the second coming.

There is a lot to fault the direction of BMW at the moment, but I don't think quality is declining. The F30 / F80 BMW's I've sat in felt like high quality items. Never driven an f8x so can't comment on the handling, would love to drive one though.
Have you sat in the backseat of an F30 sedan? It feels like a rental back there. Cringe. Pretty subjective, I know.
Sit in the back of my F80. Leather heated rear seats. Very nicely done and a luxury ride if ur a kid 12 years or under or an adult less than 5' 5" in height.
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      06-21-2018, 08:04 AM   #77
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Wow. Let's try to clear up some of this.

(1) Porsche charging extra for CCB on the GT3. Anyone who has dealt with Porsche knows that they have a habit of offering extra cost performance options on even their highest priced road cars. This doesn't mean that the performance options aren't worth having. It simply means that Porsche has learned how to nickle and dime consumers. BMW does the same thing, albeit with comfort and convenience options (they charge extra for Apple play on the M760, for crying out loud, a feature standard on new Toyotas!).

(2) Lighter weight is always a benefit, and more so at the ends of the axles where unsprung weight has more impact on handling than it will elsewhere on the vehicle.

(3) Durability. If CC rotors were as fragile as you imagine, F1 and LeMans racers woul not use them. Tire changes need to occur in around 6 or 7 seconds for all 4 corners, and no team wants to risk the additional down time a required to replace rotors during a pit stop.
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      06-21-2018, 08:23 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSilk View Post
(1) Porsche charging extra for CCB on the GT3. Anyone who has dealt with Porsche knows that they have a habit of offering extra cost performance options on even their highest priced road cars. This doesn't mean that the performance options aren't worth having. It simply means that Porsche has learned how to nickle and dime consumers. BMW does the same thing, albeit with comfort and convenience options (they charge extra for Apple play on the M760, for crying out loud, a feature standard on new Toyotas!).
The GT3 RS I referenced earlier had the Weistech (or whatever it's called) package. Still had steel brakes.
Porsche sells the steel brakes for people who actually track and leave the CCBs to hard parkers who go on forums talking about how 'incredible they bite' and other comments which are of low intelligence.
That is also why their Cup car comes with steel brakes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DSilk View Post
(2) Lighter weight is always a benefit, and more so at the ends of the axles where unsprung weight has more impact on handling than it will elsewhere on the vehicle.
It is a benefit. The sole benefit. And the CCB brakes have many other disadvantages. Regardless, anyone who thinks CCB is good for serious tracking is way too slow to notice this difference in unsprung weight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSilk View Post
(3) Durability. If CC rotors were as fragile as you imagine, F1 and LeMans racers woul not use them. Tire changes need to occur in around 6 or 7 seconds for all 4 corners, and no team wants to risk the additional down time a required to replace rotors during a pit stop.
CC and CCB are two different things. I thought we had been through that already. Lets do it again:
CC --> for professional race cars of the highest level. Insanely expensive. Actually durable
CCB--> a good way for marketers to make money off susceptible humans, who can brag while parked at Costco that their brakes 'make the tires chirp' and that nothing brakes like them because 'race teams use them'


This is not an issue of imagining things. The car's manual clearly states if you hit the rotor with a wheel you have to replace the rotor.
Do you need a link? I can provide one as it seems very difficult to understand

Anyone who tracks a lot goes through a massive amount of wheels and tires. They are changing them once, maybe more per weekend.

Then again, I guess in the same universe where we have glass bridges and people spending 10k per weekend on brakes because 'they can afford it' and because 'they can feel two pounds of unsprung mass per corner', perhaps we also have people bringing a whole crew of mechanics to the track with them who are trained in changing wheels without banging the rotors. It must be nice to live in that universe.
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      06-21-2018, 10:25 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
The GT3 RS I referenced earlier had the Weistech (or whatever it's called) package. Still had steel brakes.
Porsche sells the steel brakes for people who actually track and leave the CCBs to hard parkers who go on forums talking about how 'incredible they bite' and other comments which are of low intelligence.
That is also why their Cup car comes with steel brakes.



It is a benefit. The sole benefit. And the CCB brakes have many other disadvantages. Regardless, anyone who thinks CCB is good for serious tracking is way too slow to notice this difference in unsprung weight.



CC and CCB are two different things. I thought we had been through that already. Lets do it again:
CC --> for professional race cars of the highest level. Insanely expensive. Actually durable
CCB--> a good way for marketers to make money off susceptible humans, who can brag while parked at Costco that their brakes 'make the tires chirp' and that nothing brakes like them because 'race teams use them'


This is not an issue of imagining things. The car's manual clearly states if you hit the rotor with a wheel you have to replace the rotor.
Do you need a link? I can provide one as it seems very difficult to understand

Anyone who tracks a lot goes through a massive amount of wheels and tires. They are changing them once, maybe more per weekend.

Then again, I guess in the same universe where we have glass bridges and people spending 10k per weekend on brakes because 'they can afford it' and because 'they can feel two pounds of unsprung mass per corner', perhaps we also have people bringing a whole crew of mechanics to the track with them who are trained in changing wheels without banging the rotors. It must be nice to live in that universe.
Here is an engineer's perspective on carbon ceramic brakes:

Carbon ceramic brakes refer to the carbon-ceramic composite material that the rotors are made of offering superior braking performance during extreme use. This composite construction offers lighter, stronger and more durable disks than their steel counterparts. And it’s this 3 way blitz where carbon ceramics shine over steel. Despite being larger in diameter, each carbon ceramics disc are about 12 lbs lighter than steel2. Therefore a vehicle equipped with ceramics can shed 24-28 lbs off its overall curb weight2. Where ceramics shine as the ultimate brake package is in its durability. Remember, Brakes decelerate your vehicle by forcing stationary brake pads onto the moving rotors and friction stops the car. Where there is friction, there will be heat. Steel brakes often have a tough time dissipating this heat during repeat hard use on the track. When the standard steel rotors get too hot, they warp, deform, and loose performance. Carbon ceramics dissipate heat far more effectively, preventing deformation, and maintaining performance. Not only can they dissipate heat efficiently, the extreme temperatures ceramics can handle are amazing. It’s whycarbon ceramic brakes are the number one choice in racing. Also the carbon composite material does not corrode like steel does when they are abused by water and salt2. Carbon ceramics are also known to last forever. Ok, not forever. But it has been reported that one set of ceramic brakes can last throughout the entire life of the car, about 100,000 miles according to brake manufacturers2. Now it’s too early to confirm those results true, but that is an impressive statement to make. Now you are probably wondering why I haven’t started quoting 60-0 mph stopping distances for ceramic brakes and begin comparing them to the steel equivalent. But most fail to realize that some steel disc packages stop just as fast as the ceramics do. The only time where carbon ceramics begin to gain an advantage is after repeated heavy braking, and the heat from the friction begins to scrub performance from the steel brakes.

Carbon ceramic brakes do have its flaws, but those flaws only show itself during everyday driving. First flaw is cost. No need to explain any further. The second flaw is the “squishy” or lack of feel the brakes have when they are cold. Ceramics don’t actually begin to feel “normal” until they heat up from extended track use. Which means those brakes will never feel “normal” for the 90% of drivers who never go tracking. The squishy feeling is actually the most common complaint and is a big deal for those who love the confidence of an early brake feel. Another flaw, which is me just nitpicking, is the squeaking noise ceramics make during low speed braking. Not as loud as truck and bus brakes sound, but just as annoying. The last flaw is of course the price. Sorry, I can’t help myself. The price for the upgrade can make anyone wince at its sight. Yes, ceramics discs look cool with those large dark gray rotors crossed drilled for extra heat dissipation. Yes, ceramic disc offer exceptional braking performance on the track. Can I reiterate, on the track. But if you don’t spend your Sundays at the track, where is all the money going? It’s a hard call to make, especially the standard steel brakes offer just as good braking performance as the carbons ceramics.
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      06-21-2018, 10:26 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
The GT3 RS I referenced earlier had the Weistech (or whatever it's called) package. Still had steel brakes.
Porsche sells the steel brakes for people who actually track and leave the CCBs to hard parkers who go on forums talking about how 'incredible they bite' and other comments which are of low intelligence.
That is also why their Cup car comes with steel brakes.



It is a benefit. The sole benefit. And the CCB brakes have many other disadvantages. Regardless, anyone who thinks CCB is good for serious tracking is way too slow to notice this difference in unsprung weight.



CC and CCB are two different things. I thought we had been through that already. Lets do it again:
CC --> for professional race cars of the highest level. Insanely expensive. Actually durable
CCB--> a good way for marketers to make money off susceptible humans, who can brag while parked at Costco that their brakes 'make the tires chirp' and that nothing brakes like them because 'race teams use them'


This is not an issue of imagining things. The car's manual clearly states if you hit the rotor with a wheel you have to replace the rotor.
Do you need a link? I can provide one as it seems very difficult to understand

Anyone who tracks a lot goes through a massive amount of wheels and tires. They are changing them once, maybe more per weekend.

Then again, I guess in the same universe where we have glass bridges and people spending 10k per weekend on brakes because 'they can afford it' and because 'they can feel two pounds of unsprung mass per corner', perhaps we also have people bringing a whole crew of mechanics to the track with them who are trained in changing wheels without banging the rotors. It must be nice to live in that universe.
Tell us how you really feel!!

Marketing departments are great at what they do. And people are sheep, me included, cause I own an M3 - a great car that can only be driven at 4/10ths if you do not want to be in violation of most traffic laws...

Not a single human being on this earth:
A - NEEDS CCB brakes for performance reasons on the street
B - can tell the difference in un-sprung weight while getting groceries

Factory brakes are more than adequate for ANY legal driving requirements.
CCBs come down to "mine is "better" than yours" for people with money.

As for track use, any proper steel BBK will be more appropriate than a factory CCB.

Super Late Models here us normal disk brakes (slotted, never cross drilled) and they are heavily used ~ every 7 seconds for 200 laps and work just fine.

Happy Thursday
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      06-21-2018, 10:43 AM   #81
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Sit in the back of my F80. Leather heated rear seats. Very nicely done and a luxury ride if ur a kid 12 years or under or an adult less than 5' 5" in height.
The rear seat in my F80 was heated. It was also rippled and crappy looking from the factory. BMW said they would replace it for 2 years and never did.

Heated Rears is part of the Exec package right? A $4000 option? I left that option off my M4 I thought it was useless.
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      06-21-2018, 11:03 AM   #82
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Here is an engineer's perspective on carbon ceramic brake...

...It’s whycarbon ceramic brakes are the number one choice in racing...
They aren't the number one choice in racing though...

Also, plenty of us are engineers with perspectives, and I've seen plenty of engineers with screwed up ideas and understandings. There are many bad/dumb engineers out there with degrees.
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      06-21-2018, 11:22 AM   #83
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They aren't the number one choice in racing though...

Also, plenty of us are engineers with perspectives, and I've seen plenty of engineers with screwed up ideas and understandings. There are many bad/dumb engineers out there with degrees.
Engineering's degrees are more theory than application as it is
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      06-21-2018, 12:19 PM   #84
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Tell us how you really feel!!

Marketing departments are great at what they do. And people are sheep, me included, cause I own an M3 - a great car that can only be driven at 4/10ths if you do not want to be in violation of most traffic laws...

Not a single human being on this earth:
A - NEEDS CCB brakes for performance reasons on the street
B - can tell the difference in un-sprung weight while getting groceries

Factory brakes are more than adequate for ANY legal driving requirements.
CCBs come down to "mine is "better" than yours" for people with money.

As for track use, any proper steel BBK will be more appropriate than a factory CCB.

Super Late Models here us normal disk brakes (slotted, never cross drilled) and they are heavily used ~ every 7 seconds for 200 laps and work just fine.

Happy Thursday

Yeah, sorry. The other day I read a thread of some poor soul on the F8X forum that bought into the marketing hype and destroyed his CCBs in 4 days. That is **much** worse performance than a steel bbk

I should just let the comments slide, but eventually someone will read this and I don't want them making the same mistake as the guy on the other forum
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      06-21-2018, 01:13 PM   #85
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Engineering's degrees are more theory than application as it is
Says the guy with neither...
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      06-21-2018, 04:14 PM   #86
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Says the guy with neither...
I take it that wasn't directed towards me?
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      06-21-2018, 09:57 PM   #87
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Love this forum! Opened page one, talking interior quality of F80s (btw, stop, they are beautiful inside, especially with full individual merino leather).

Jumped to page 4 and it's a CCB P car war! Unexpected!

These 2 cars are always going to be compared because unlike previous M3 generations, it feels like they could be sold next to each other in the showroom and everyone would be ok with it.
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      06-21-2018, 11:09 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by SoManyBlueCars View Post
These 2 cars are always going to be compared because unlike previous M3 generations, it feels like they could be sold next to each other in the showroom and everyone would be ok with it.
This is an interesting thought...If brand new E9X M3's and the F8X M3/4's were sold with the exact same tech/luxury packages, concurrently at roughly the same pricing, how many people would purchase the E9X?

I would just do the same thing I already did, and buy a second hand E9X in the 10k mileage range.
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