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06-21-2008, 08:06 PM | #23 | |
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No way. I drove them back to back, in the heat, on the street. They are VERY even acceleration-wise. swamp may think differently. Don't worry about lining up with one. Just worry about coppers.... and of course the innocent pedestrians. (they will be deafened by the noise from these 2 exhausts)
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06-21-2008, 08:27 PM | #24 |
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Swamp and Hans -
Thanks for the great impressions. My 1200 mile service is just around the corner and I can't wait to experience what you described about Swamp's car for myself. Although I ended up choosing the M3, I know exactly what you are saying Hans. I have drifted through several cars, knowing in my heart of hearts that I have always wanted an M3. The problem is that I didn't realize it until I went through 3 other cars. Now that I have the M3, it's obvious - just like you feel about your C63. It's possible with gas prices that we should all enjoy these great cars as it may be a while before we see another period where auto companies are putting their research into performance (as opposed to efficiency). |
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06-21-2008, 09:00 PM | #25 |
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how about the SUpermodel!?!?
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06-22-2008, 12:33 PM | #27 |
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These are the pictures of Swamp's car on the scale.
Important the scale readings are without driver and 1/4 tank of fuel. Thanks to Hans and Swamp for the "Summer School" lesson. |
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06-22-2008, 01:53 PM | #28 |
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While there is not likely anyone trading their C63 or E92 M3 for an older E36 M3, I thought there might be some interest in the numbers since I weighed my car the same day.
Stock 1995 M3 Automatic with about 7/8 tank of fuel No driver LF 818 lbs. RF 830 lbs LR 799 lbs. RR 824 lbs Total 3271 lbs. With Driver (184 lbs) LF 886 lbs RF 849 lbs LR 870 lbs RR 849 lbs Total 3455 lbs. My comments regarding the C63 and E92 M3 as a passenger. I have taught college level automotive power train (both manual and automatic transmissions) for 32 years, built modified automatics for street and strip use, and many drag strip passes in a SS/DA 1970 Dodge Challenger (426 Hemi w/automatic) 10.50s at 130 MPH, but that was when the Challenger was a new car in 1970. Both cars can shift “automatically” very smooth and initial movement from a stop is smooth for both cars. What some have written about delay in the M3 is not noticeable to the passenger. The DCT initial movement is much better than riding with most manual transmission drivers that I have experienced as a passenger. I am often diagnosing problem transmissions and clutches and riding with high school or younger college automotive students, which generally has me riding with inexperienced drivers. Both of these cars have plenty of power to scare the women and children in your neighborhood. Full Throttle shifts are drag race fast with the “neck snap” award going to the M3, but the C63 gets the “scream of the beast” award. To be fair Hans had the C63 loaded with 4 adults (my wife enjoyed the “E” ticket ride also) on a VERY hot evening which was killing the power. We could have had a barbecue under the hood of the C63 when we returned to the shop. Swamp provided a private lesson in the M3 so there were two less passengers. Thanks again to Hans and Swamp for the education. I learned much about the M-DCT tricks and I’m not far from saying goodbye to my old friend the E36 M3. |
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06-23-2008, 02:52 AM | #29 |
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the scales can not tell you how low is the CG, nor can they measure the moment of inertia. I have read that BMW improved both in the e92 M3.... by moving the wt lower and to the middle of the car thus improving both. so even tho there is more wt. it is in the best places.
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06-23-2008, 12:27 PM | #31 | |
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06-24-2008, 09:20 AM | #32 | |
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Only problem now is where to find the 140K to get both into the garage
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06-24-2008, 09:27 AM | #33 | ||
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Anyway, no matter what you buy out there you will see a dozen of them a day (except say for F430's or things along those lines). So just enjoy your car //Mantis, and if you want exclusivity, move east where depsite their being plenty of money in places, it does seem that high end cars are a little bit less common?
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06-24-2008, 01:16 PM | #34 | |
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06-24-2008, 02:24 PM | #35 |
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I don't agree that the answer is to have both, the answer is to have one - the M3 but to choose the right gearbox - M-DCT. Then you have the relaxed manner of the AMG with the all out ability of the M3 and this is the reason why the M3 has softened it's extreme character, the car can now appeal to a much wider public but to the despair of it's die-hard fan club.
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06-24-2008, 02:25 PM | #36 | |
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I'm gonna guess some of the reason the M3 is lighter is because it has less sound-deadening than the C63. I was suprised at the noticable difference in road noise between the 2 cars. The C63, with its quiet cabin and that big V8 loping along at 2000rpm doing 80mph, cruises very nicely as long as the road isn't horribly bumpy. As far as lap and slalom times, I wonder what would happen if the C63 wore the M3's larger and stickier Michelin Pilot Sports? I could never have just one car. I'm crazy. Even when I was much more financially-challenged, I had an MGB to go with my daily driver.
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06-24-2008, 07:41 PM | #37 | |
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I think your ears are better than mine. I didn't really think the C63 was much quieter than the M3 the tested overall SPLs (A weighted) are (from Car and Driver): Car/Idle/Cruise/WOT C63/49/68/79 M3/50/74/85 Based on the near 5 second beating the M3 gave the C63 on a 2.7mi track (as tested by Motor Trend) I'm not sure how much the tires would really help the C63 . |
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06-24-2008, 09:24 PM | #38 |
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This is a good read y'all. The suspension would be the deal-breaker for me (if you've been in my pics thread, you've seen my roads).
FWIW, Hans makes an excellent point when he/she discusses what he/she wants in the car: these cars are not aimed at exactly the same driver. We tend to lose sight of that. Same with the RS4.
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06-24-2008, 10:02 PM | #39 | |
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But anyhow in regards to sound level, at cruise and WOT 6 db is fairly significant. 3 db is clearly noticeable while an increase of 10 db would be twice as loud. Obviously this isn't an issue for most, nor is it for me, but just wanted to point out that while 6 db might not seem like a lot, it is definatley discernable. Also, regarding lap times that people love to compare, the M crowd is very quick to post times where the M3 is clearly the victor, yet say boo when shown times where the C63 and M3 are nearly identical or very close. Not to mention these former times are posted from magazines that seem to have the least credibility on this site such as Motor Trend and Top Gear, yet seem to always be quoted. I remember before any comparisons were made, folks here were already condeming the upcoming Top Gear review, and said to wait for the Sport Auto times as they were one of the last trustworthy publications. But now nearly 6 months later, rarely are the Sport Auto times or more respected magazines times posted, but rather those of Top Gear and Motor Trend. These comparisons are rarely mentioned around here: Autozeitung Test Track M3 E92 = 1:40.1 M3 E90 = 1:38.7 C63 = 1:40.0 Hockenheim Short Lap (Sport Auto) M3 E92 = 1:14.3 M3 E90 = 1:15.2 C63 = 1:15.2 Hockenheim GP M3 E90 = 2:02.7 C63 = 2:04.5 I won't deny that the M3 will post better times more consistently, but a lot of people make the C63 out to be a pig on the track. Obviously it is capable of turning out fast times; it just requires a bit more seat time to learn the car's behavior. |
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06-24-2008, 10:14 PM | #40 | ||
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M3: 181.7 L 71.5 W 55.8 H C63: 186 L 70.7 W 56.6 H Road noise of 68 vs 74 (measured in db?) spread is pretty big IMO. I thought the M3 was more around 70. 74 is right up there with my Evo! Quote:
Thanks for your support. I agree that the M3 is the best track weapon of the three. Although I am fortunate to be able to have a more dedicated track car.
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06-24-2008, 10:15 PM | #41 | |
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Nice post! Welcome to the forum. |
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06-24-2008, 10:18 PM | #42 | |
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IMO, neither of these cars are optimal track cars. They're both heavy, and expensive. They will go thru brakes and tires quickly and repair costs are going to be high. I don't know any serious track folks who take a $70K street car on the track with regularity. OK, maybe a C6 Z06
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06-24-2008, 11:36 PM | #43 | |
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For those of you sitting on the fence in regards to DCT, heed the words of Hans, Swamp, and I. The Lags/glitches talked about on the forums are very knitpicky things that appear like big deals because we have long threads addressing them.... Jason
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06-25-2008, 02:35 AM | #44 |
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I'm not totally sure on this but I thought every 3dbs was double the volume. Maybe one of our sound engineering nerds could tell us if this is true.
On the matter of whether the M3 is that much better of a track animal, does it really matter that much anyway, like who here has solely bought the M3 for track work and at that how often will it be there in percentage of time compared to normal driving. Some manufacturers use track times and stuff to pormo their cars but the reality is that daily driving and how the thing performs there is the most important. As a daily drive the C63 may prove to be the more enjoyable of the two, it's quiter as Hans said, it's get the better interior and seats (personal opinion), the steering wheel is a tactile delight, an engine better suited to normal traffic demanding performance and it got slightly more space. On the M3's defence it's slightly more enjoyable to drive in spirited motoring, it's now has a gearbox which can compete with the auto in the C63 in auto mode and performs much better in manual, it's residuals should be better and it's slightly cheaper. It's more a case of picking the brand and looks that appeal to you more than just picking purely on their ability around a track, that's the kind of thing a total dick does. |
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