Differences with the DCT Upgrade

[Dascamel]

Did the walkout sheet have the version number on it?

[footie]

I wasn't present when the car was returned to my work (after 6pm) but when I collected it there was no worksheet with it. But the last time it got the revised software there was no number code on the worksheet for the update so maybe it depends on the dealers as to what is put on it.

[jeff4598]

Does this make sense?- the lag is caused by the transmission still shifting down to first gear after a near stop and during the re-acceleration-so the key is for the 2to1 shift to be quicker so it's DONE when you accelerate- well it's slow cause speed of shift is partialy based on throtle position and by definition the throtte is closed or nearly so( that's just fine as you deccelarate and go down through the gears and I think there is likely a similar lag if you hit the gas when it's shifting from 4 to3 or 3 to 2 but you are moving faster and I believe the momentum makes the lag less obvious) so wouldn't a simple software change that hastens 2 to1 gear downshifts despite little or no throtle do the trick-it may be a little less smooth on each stop but well worth it.

[apw2607]

Why do we continue to try and break this down? When folks received the car back in April 2008 with M-DCT this problem didn't exist. Since the PROGMAN update to fix the stall issue (along with other problems) we have this issue. The problem was caused by software, and can be fixed by software.

Everyone .... please continue to contact BMW NA customer service and COMPLAIN about this issue. Keep complaining, until they release a fix. Due to the market size of M cars sold here, BMW will want to ensure customer satisfaction. If enough people complain about this matter it will be dealt with.

[gr8000]

Originally Posted by apw2607

Why do we continue to try and break this down? When folks received the car back in April 2008 with M-DCT this problem didn't exist. Since the PROGMAN update to fix the stall issue (along with other problems) we have this issue.

In my case it existed as from the outset, so there was no backstepping with the new software releases on the lag issue in my case. It just existed back then and continues to exist after the progman 31.1 update I got.

Originally Posted by apw2607

The problem was caused by software, and can be fixed by software.

Everyone .... please continue to contact BMW NA customer service and COMPLAIN about this issue. Keep complaining, until they release a fix. Due to the market size of M cars sold here, BMW will want to ensure customer satisfaction. If enough people complain about this matter it will be dealt with.

+1

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by apw2607

Everyone .... please continue to contact BMW NA customer service and COMPLAIN about this issue. Keep complaining, until they release a fix. Due to the market size of M cars sold here, BMW will want to ensure customer satisfaction. If enough people complain about this matter it will be dealt with.

+50.

I have posted this exact same sentiment about 5 times, probably 3 times in this thread alone. I remain optimistic. Even though v31.2 fixed many bugs it created this big one. I also remain impressed on how quickly they got 31.2 released.

[ruff]

Originally Posted by swamp2

+50.

I have posted this exact same sentiment about 5 times, probably 3 times in this thread alone. I remain optimistic. Even though v31.2 fixed many bugs it created this big one. I also remain impressed on how quickly they got 31.2 released.

Remember the good ole days, when you use to get on my case about my case to BMW for weight reduction, steering feel, and a brake upgrade? See how beating the proverbial dead horse, as you use to say, is in fact the mechanism for change?

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by ruff

Remember the good ole days, when you use to get on my case about my case to BMW for weight reduction, steering feel, and a brake upgrade? See how beating the proverbial dead horse, as you use to say, is in fact the mechanism for change?

Ahhh, yes but there is a VERY distinct difference. BMW DOES and WILL listen to folks who own cars that have bugs like the DCT issues. However, when it comes to design and specification, they will listen a bit to some focus groups but actually truly impacting any change in this regard is really an utter waste of time.

BTW, the steering feel issue is long since dead. It is very good, like all M3s. Brakes, however ar indeed are a bit substandard for hard track days.

[ruff]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Ahhh, yes but there is a VERY distinct difference. BMW DOES and WILL listen to folks who own cars that have bugs like the DCT issues. However, when it comes to design and specification, they will listen a bit to some focus groups but actually truly impacting any change in this regard is really an utter waste of time.

BTW, the steering feel issue is long since dead. It is very good, like all M3s. Brakes, however ar indeed are a bit substandard for hard track days.

Swamp,

I hate to break it to ya, but BMW could care less if you already own one of their cars. In fact, they care a lot more about gaining new customers than worrying about die hards like yourself who will buy an M3 no matter what it looks like or how it actually performs against the competition. BMW cares about their bottom line, period. If that means good customer relations is financially more viable then denying a problem, then they will make changes, if not, they will deny the problem. It is basic business practices 101.

How many times do I have to revisit BMW's history. Like I have told you before, in the early part of this decade, they changed the design and specification of the steering system in the 3 series, not because it had poor steering feel, which it did, but because the press and everyone else complained about it and ultimately cost BMW future sales. Why do you think BMW slapped on a 6MT option for the M5, even though the car was built specifically for SMG and does not perform up to M5 standards without it? Simple, because it cost them sales.

Good to know the steering feel magically improved and is now on par with Porsche.

[apw2607]

I just got off the phone with BMW NA again. Spoke to one of their supervisors. They are sticking to ... "the gearbox is behaving within its specification" story.

So again, please send a email complaining to customerrelations@bmwusa.com if you want this fixed.

[aus]

Originally Posted by apw2607

Why do we continue to try and break this down? When folks received the car back in April 2008 with M-DCT this problem didn't exist. Since the PROGMAN update to fix the stall issue (along with other problems) we have this issue. The problem was caused by software, and can be fixed by software.

Everyone .... please continue to contact BMW NA customer service and COMPLAIN about this issue. Keep complaining, until they release a fix. Due to the market size of M cars sold here, BMW will want to ensure customer satisfaction. If enough people complain about this matter it will be dealt with.

Instead of complaining to deaf ears at BMW, why not complaint to the NTHSB, and let them MAKE BMW fix it.

That guy who bumped 10 threads had the right idea, but went about it the wrong way. It only took 5 minutes to file the complaint. If EVERYONE here with DCT did it, it should show up on their radar. I just stressed that I had NO POWER while trying to pull into traffic.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by aus

Instead of complaining to deaf ears at BMW, why not complaint to the NTHSB, and let them MAKE BMW fix it.

+1

(That's NHTSA, btw, for anyone looking for the website)

[apw2607]

Yes your absolutely right. I just filed a complaint with them as well.

As of today (Feb 10th there is only 3 complaints logged against the Transmission regarding the M-DCT problem).

It takes about 5 minutes to enter a problem. You can copy and paste what other folks wrote if you wish ... but please enter a problem report guys !!

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by ruff

Swamp,

I hate to break it to ya, but BMW could care less if you already own one of their cars. In fact, they care a lot more about gaining new customers than worrying about die hards like yourself who will buy an M3 no matter what it looks like or how it actually performs against the competition. BMW cares about their bottom line, period. If that means good customer relations is financially more viable then denying a problem, then they will make changes, if not, they will deny the problem. It is basic business practices 101.

How many times do I have to revisit BMW's history. Like I have told you before, in the early part of this decade, they changed the design and specification of the steering system in the 3 series, not because it had poor steering feel, which it did, but because the press and everyone else complained about it and ultimately cost BMW future sales. Why do you think BMW slapped on a 6MT option for the M5, even though the car was built specifically for SMG and does not perform up to M5 standards without it? Simple, because it cost them sales.

Good to know the steering feel magically improved and is now on par with Porsche.

I hate to break it to you Ruff but the EVIDENCE speaks louder than your opinion. BMW has already released a major DCT software update. This is utterly and completely inconsistent with your veiw expressed above. My prediction may be incorrect but if history be any suitable guide there will be more software versions. As you may or may not know BMW has released a plethora of updates for transmission and ECU software in many of its other models.

Moreover, I take offense at your characterization of me as the blind fanboy. I have been an M fan since the very early days, just like you. I have owned all of the M3's except the E30. If you think the E9X M3 does not live up to the M3 marquee in term of its performance vs. the competitors I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree. I'll readily admit that the competition is doing a great job at closing the gap, but the M3 is still a great car, has great performance, great price to performance (in its class) and accodring to many journalists still a better all around sports car compared to some very high performers like the GT3, GT-R and 911 TT.

Lastly, I strongly contend the early "issues" in the press about the steering feel of the M3 was largely hype, nonsense and factually incorrect. There have been just as many reports of its sublime and great steering as there have been of reports on the negative side.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by aus

Instead of complaining to deaf ears at BMW, why not complaint to the NTHSB, and let them MAKE BMW fix it.

That guy who bumped 10 threads had the right idea, but went about it the wrong way. It only took 5 minutes to file the complaint. If EVERYONE here with DCT did it, it should show up on their radar. I just stressed that I had NO POWER while trying to pull into traffic.

+1. Just filed my complaint. You are right, both routes should be pursued, your shop foreman and the NHTSB. The specific link to make your complaint is here.

[ruff]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I hate to break it to you Ruff but the EVIDENCE speaks louder than your opinion. BMW has already released a major DCT software update. This is utterly and completely inconsistent with your veiw expressed above. My prediction may be incorrect but if history be any suitable guide there will be more software versions. As you may or may not know BMW has released a plethora of updates for transmission and ECU software in many of its other models.

Moreover, I take offense at your characterization of me as the blind fanboy. I have been an M fan since the very early days, just like you. I have owned all of the M3's except the E30. If you think the E9X M3 does not live up to the M3 marquee in term of its performance vs. the competitors I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree. I'll readily admit that the competition is doing a great job at closing the gap, but the M3 is still a great car, has great performance, great price to performance (in its class) and accodring to many journalists still a better all around sports car compared to some very high performers like the GT3, GT-R and 911 TT.

Lastly, I strongly contend the early "issues" in the press about the steering feel of the M3 was largely hype, nonsense and factually incorrect. There have been just as many reports of its sublime and great steering as there have been of reports on the negative side.

Swamp,

Your need to show your are right and others are wrong is a real weakness to your otherwise mostly credible arguments on this forum. More troubling is your habit of saying you are the keeper of facts and evidence, while counter arguments made by others are not. This is not only intellectual dishonest but instaneously kills all credibility of an otherwise decent argument. As someone with a scientific education and background, you would think this to be obvious.

Why are you still arguing about something that is again, obvious. As I said, if BMW's bottom line is better off by admitting there is a problem, what ever it is, e.g, DCT, then BMW will address it. Obviously, the bottom line skews in favor of fixing it, so there you have it.

My whole point of the exchange to begin with was simply to point out that what you are now saying, is what I have alway said, and you use to get on my case about it: Demanding by way of our voice and wallet that BMW provide the best product possible, will improve the product. Real simple.

You have been an apologist for BMW. Not as much anymore, because reality has finally forced you to see the light with the brake issue, buggy DCT, and the meteoric rise of the competition. If you would simply drop your BMW bias and drive an M3 and Porsche back to back, I think you will then understand what folks are saying when they discuss steering feel.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by ruff

Your need to show your are right and others are wrong is a real weakness to your otherwise mostly credible arguments on this forum. More troubling is your habit of saying you are the keeper of facts and evidence, while counter arguments made by others are not. This is not only intellectual dishonest but instaneously kills all credibility of an otherwise decent argument. As someone with a scientific education and background, you would think this to be obvious.

Why are you still arguing about something that is again, obvious. As I said, if BMW's bottom line is better off by admitting there is a problem, what ever it is, e.g, DCT, then BMW will address it. Obviously, the bottom line skews in favor of fixing it, so there you have it.

Here we go into the meta posting drivel...

You must like the fact that there is plenty of debate on this forum as you continue to participate. I do believe you are flat out incorrect on many issues. Too bad. Take it or leave it. It doesn't make either of us perfect nor completely lacking credibility. My evidence about the quick release of DCT software directly contradicts you point. I believe on this particular point you are wrong and I am right. The evidence is clearly on my side. Seems pretty obvious you are changing gears anyway, first you say BMW will abandon us with DCT problems since we already own the car now you lean toward the argument that there may be a "bottom line" argument that they will fix it. Although I will be the first to agree almost all large companies focus on the bottom line, M cars are not done specifically for the bottom line and there is much hidden bottom line value in having a bug free DCT on their premium sport model.

Originally Posted by ruff

My whole point of the exchange to begin with was simply to point out that what you are now saying, is what I have alway said, and you use to get on my case about it: Demanding by way of our voice and wallet that BMW provide the best product possible, will improve the product. Real simple.

Well we'll just have to disagree. Like I mentioned ones ability to vote with the wallet to majorly influence a major OEMs design choices is very limited. However, our ability as owners (of certain models) to make sure bugs in our cars are sorted out is much more powerful AND I SIMPLY PROVIDED ONE CONCRETE EXAMPLE OF IT. The real problem is the BMW simply did not build the M3 that YOU wanted. Its marketing and focus groups along with top M division brass decided the way the car needed to evolve. Too bad, go buy a used E30 M3 and be blissful.

Originally Posted by ruff

You have been an apologist for BMW. Not as much anymore, because reality has finally forced you to see the light with the brake issue, buggy DCT, and the meteoric rise of the competition. If you would simply drop your BMW bias and drive an M3 and Porsche back to back, I think you will then understand what folks are saying when they discuss steering feel.

I'll take the apologist label with its pure denotation and no connotation thank you very much. There are many attacks on BMW M and on the M3 for which there are perfectly valid defenses. But on to specifics, experience has shown the brakes to be ever so slightly under capable in the hardest conditions. Many track users have reported no problems at all. Sure I would have liked the brakes on the car to be a bit more robust (heck and even better looking too) but they are far from terrible. Again BMW just did not quite do what we both wanted. Too bad for us. I did think they would be better but it simply is not a "deal breaker".

Not sure how many times I can say it DCT is still 9.5 out of 10, period. Have you driven one?

I have driven a couple P cars but not a Cayman S. The 996 cab I drove was so unbelievably underwhelming. As I have said before it doesn't matter how great the Cayman S performs or feels I would not buy one based on price to performance, size and aesthetics.

The M3 is far from perfect but the compromise is great and suits me and many others just fine. You are such a minority in believing the car has taken such a radically wrong turn.

Keep stirring the pot, this tactic of yours is equally as old as my apologism.

[AZ-BMW]

to swamp2:

to ruff:

[ruff]

Swampy,

Hard to stir a pot, if you do not deliver pot after tasty pot needing a stir. You take this stuff way too serious. Good to see you back on your game.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by ruff

Hard to stir a pot, if you do not deliver pot after tasty pot needing a stir.

I can not decipher that at all.

Originally Posted by ruff

You take this stuff way too serious.

Pot, kettle, black.

[alito]

any news?

[swamp2]

The nice test from Motor mag (Australia) found this lag and heavily criticized it in their M3 vs. IS-F vs. C63 AMG test. I believe this is the first I have seen of this in the press. Likely because early DCT cars didn't have the issue.

Needless to say the M3 handily bested both around their test track.

Link.