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01-11-2018, 06:33 PM | #551 | |
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Each region handles the first session a bit different, but in Texas we have a warm up session first. Its basically a gentleman's agreement on how you grid for that session. For the most part, the fastest guys grid first and the slower folks grid last. We try to leave a little gap so that there is little to no passing required in the first two hot laps. Usually after that, the fast guys will catch the back of the pack. The warm up session doesn't count for anything other than helping to set grid for the first timed session. As I said, the times from the warm up though are used to set grid for the first hot session. Fastest times grid first. If anyone improves their time, then they can move up in grid. Usually by the end of the first two timed sessions, grid positions are pretty well organized. We'll usually let guys in front of us know when we swap to stickers. They have a nice contingency program for various car parts. I run Hoosiers. I won 12 tires this year which helps defray costs. I ran WGI for the first time in Nationals. It was pretty intimidating, but I'd be more comfortable now going to a track I have never run even in Nationals environment. The linked video shows a typical lap and how everyone cooperates with each other. |
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01-11-2018, 07:44 PM | #552 |
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Yes to NASA TT as well. I did my first event this past December at Road Atlanta and got 2nd and 1st on the separate days. And yes to contingency program with Hoosier. Got 3 free tires!! Can't wait for this season.
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01-12-2018, 11:13 AM | #553 | |
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You mentioned something about going from slower to faster tires. So, if you had been running a less grippy tire and were being gridded as such, and then you show up with super awesome stickers, and you've been watching everyone else's times and you know you'll be 3-4 seconds faster on the new tires, do you ask if it's possible to be gridded higher? Or do you just try to leave a gap and sort it out on track? I went to the NASA TT website and was starting to dig around. I found the TT Class Calc. The max my car has dynoed is 550. I'm sure an average hp would be lower. For competition weight, what is the rule on gas in the tank? At 16 gallons, the tank could hold up to 100 lbs in fuel.....I based it on half a tank, so a full tank would be 50 more lbs. Does it look like I'm filling the sheet out correctly? Am I missing anything? And what is the NASA PT TTC-F Class Calculator for? What does PT stand for? (I'm laughing that having a sedan might be the thing that keeps me out of Unlimited! hahaha!) |
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01-12-2018, 12:05 PM | #554 | |
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It’s cool to hear that you guys are winning tires. I got my first taste of tangible prizes last year at Bimmerfest. I enjoyed that. |
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01-12-2018, 06:22 PM | #555 | |
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PT is performance touring. It is the racing version of the TT letter classes. ST is super touring. It is the racing version of the TT number classes. If someone puts on stickers, we usually will talk to each other about swapping grid spots or coordinating a pass early. Sometimes I'll just try to leave a bigger gap. It depends on if I know the person. I will say that when I did VIR with their NASA region I ended up wasting my magic sticker laps because the two guys in front of me wouldn't let me by and I didn't know them well enough to try to make a pass in the corners. However, in my region (TX), I have never had an issue getting clean laps on sticker or faster tires. |
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01-15-2018, 03:56 PM | #556 |
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Anyone who knows me, knows that I love my AP Racing BBK. The brake pedal feels the same lap after lap under any driving condition. And the kit has been trouble-free.
I've owned the front Stillen AP CP-5555 kit for 6 years. (I bought it used, so it's actually 7 yeas old). In 2018, the kit was going to need another full round of maintenance/refreshing. The hats were 7 years old and needed to be replaced, the rotors needed to be replaced as they are below minimum spec and have many cracks on the inner edges, and the seals in the front calipers needed rebuilding again because the seals are starting to poke out.....So, the front kit was going to need ~$2000 of maintenance. So, I called Stillen to get going with new rotors because I just can't run the current ones on track anymore.....I simply ran them too long. Bad news----Stillen doesn't stock the 368mm strap drive rotors anymore. The rotors are now considered special order and they are 10-12 weeks out. Ack!! In the past, any time I needed new rotors, they were a regularly stocked item and I received them next day. I have an old spare set of rotor rings here that are still ok to track, so I asked if I could buy the mounting hardware kit of screws/bolts/washers and straps......nope, those are special order too---10-12 weeks out....The hats are also special order......(I called AP in England and asked them if there were another options for these particular rotors. Nope. They don't have them at all and they have to be fabricated from scratch and it takes them at least 6 weeks to do it. And I wasn't particularly interested in running a generic rotor....not that I saw any read-to-go options for a 368mm strap drive system anyway....) So, I was facing spending $2000 on the front pair of a 7 year-old old kit and having to wait 3 months to get the parts. Since I didn't want to run these rotors anymore, this meant skipping the rest of the cool weather season in California. So, what did I do? I did what any self-respecting track junkie would do.....I went straight to Essex's website and starting researching the AP Radi-Cal kits! After doing a bunch of homework, I decided I was interested in the 9668 front kit. And, darn that Racewerkz Engineering........they had a set in stock ready to go. Casey's like, "yeah man, just c'mon over and check them out whenever you want. We got 'em." Damn it!! Why does he have to make it so easy to part with $$$???? So, yeah, like a little track bitch, I went running up to his shop and, uh, yeah, this is what my car looks like now. I did the install myself. I also swapped out the studs. The most painful part was bleeding the brakes. I really hate brake bleeding. Anyway, for anyone with a Stillen CP-5555 kit, just know that you're looking at a very long lead time to get replacement parts. (I'm still running the Stillen rear kit. The Radi-Cal rear kit is just going to have to wait-----even though Casey had that in stock too! Damn it!!) Hopefully, I'll get a chance to test it all out this weekend at Buttonwillow. |
01-15-2018, 04:00 PM | #557 | |
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01-15-2018, 05:36 PM | #558 |
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01-15-2018, 06:52 PM | #559 |
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01-15-2018, 07:14 PM | #560 |
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01-15-2018, 09:23 PM | #561 |
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I know.....You, my wife and my daughter probably pressed the brake pedal a total of 400-500 times while I was sitting under the car like an idiot fighting the catch-bottle's hose line and looking at air bubbles.
I laugh at all the instructions that say to press the brake pedal 5-6 times per bleed screw. Yeah right. After 50 brake presses on a single bleed screw, I still see air bubbles.....I think my brake system must have an oxygen farm in it somewhere..... |
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01-15-2018, 10:31 PM | #562 |
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those 9668 kits are beautiful... if i ever have to look at brakes again, these are my next step. i love the thick pads. i take it they clear the 18x10.5 arc8's without a spacer?
i'm also curious to see how much of a difference in braking you notice... seems like a small upgrade, but i'd be interested in hearing your initial thoughts on it.
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01-16-2018, 12:24 AM | #563 | |
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The 9668 caliper does clear an ARC-8 18x9.5" too, but the caliper is fairly close to the spokes. I will use a 5mm spacer with the 9.5" rims. Of course, I'm curious about braking feel too. The literature claims that pedal feel will be better due to a stiffer caliper. I'm interested to see if I can feel that. My old AP kit had very good stopping power, so I'm not anticipating a huge change in stopping power. Both kits have the exact same pad shape. In fact, I'm just using a new set of the exact same Cobalt Friction XR2 pads because I had a new set here (in 18mm). (Later, I'll get full 25mm pads, but that won't affect performance.) If you buy a big brake kit in a production street car, the BBK has to work within the confines of the car's brake master cylinder. This means the BBK can only squeeze with an appropriate intensity that works with the car's expectations, otherwise it will trigger ABS all the time. So, as far as overall raw power, I'm guessing the new kit will feel similar. I am hoping that pad knockback is reduced with the new kit. The Bus Stop braking zone is a great place to get a sense of that. Comparing the rotors of the two kits, the old kit had a 368mmx36mm rotor with 72 internal cooling vanes. The new kit has a 372x34mm rotor with 84 cooling vanes. Which rotor has a better capacity for dissipating heat? Who knows. I did like the idea behind the strap drive system on the old kit and thought it worked well. I'll be curious to see how the new kit's Floating Rotor design feels. Ultimately, where a BBK shines over an OEM brake setup is thermal capacity/heat dissipation. Heat is simply the enemy in braking. Honda Accord brakes can provide plenty of stopping power for a couple brake presses. But if you go to 100mph and brake hard to 20mph 15 times in a row, you're gonna cook those brakes something awful because they're just not made to handle that kind of heat buildup. A quality BBK with race pads will handle that same situation without any drama. My old AP Racing kit never overheated or gave me a long pedal travel at any track. That's what I loved about them. This new Radi-Cal is supposed to be the next generation of braking tech. Hopefully, it will handle the heat even better. I think the stage is set for a good direct comparison this weekend. The new kit has the same pads in it as the old kit. And I'm quite familiar with Buttonwillow. I do have decent tires with me, so once I get all bedded in with the new rotors and pads, I'll be able to push the kit harder as the day progresses. |
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01-16-2018, 12:46 AM | #564 |
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i was a little intimidated with all the little nuts/bolts at first on the bobbins when i did my first ring change, but i was surprised it only took me a few hours... even taking my time. seems like the straps would be quicker though.
i presume you are going to upgrade the rear as well when the time comes? any weight savings over your old kit?
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01-16-2018, 12:58 AM | #565 | |
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I'm not too worried about the rears right now. I can get rotors for my AP rear kit. And it's all working fine. I don't know about weight differences between the Stillen and Essex kits. I briefly considered weighing some of the components, but I was so intent on the install, I didn't want to stop down and weigh a bunch of stuff. Plus, I only had worn down rotors for the old kit. I still have the old kit. I guess I could toss it on a scale. It's possible Essex has already weighed their components and could share that. |
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01-16-2018, 01:25 AM | #566 |
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oh interesting, i was thinking the strap system was like the pfc system that seemed to be pretty quick.
essex states the 9668 kit is 12lbs less than oem. even if you do thow the old components on the scale, it might be fun to see.
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01-16-2018, 03:43 AM | #567 | |
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You going to be at buttonwillow Sunday?
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01-16-2018, 09:05 AM | #568 | |
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Yes, I'm planning on Sunday at Buttonwillow. |
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01-16-2018, 09:48 AM | #569 |
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You know we have an addiction when we start upgrading our BBK's!
New kit looks quite nice, congrats on the upgrade! I am trying a few things to see if I can get happy with my current Stoptech ST40 front brake setup. If I can't get it there I may upgrade to the 380mm Stoptech Trophy kit which I had on my last car and loved, or this kit, thanks for sharing.
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01-17-2018, 10:08 AM | #570 | |
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And this topic brings up the question: I wonder what the realistic life of a part like an AP Racing brake caliper is when it's tracked. Do these kinds of things have finite life spans? No one can even agree on how long a rotor hat should last......I spoke to AP in England. They said 2 years for a hat. Essex says that customers have been running their hats for many years..... And for me, the overall theme of this topic of how-long-do-parts-last extends to other things on the car. I have asked many tech people about how long a brake master cylinder lasts, or how long OEM control arms last......no one knows. I even ran into a guy who works for BMW as a vehicle designer. I asked if BMW's motorsport division had any people who could give feedback on part life based on their experiences. He was very nice and said he would ask......never heard back from him. No one wants to go on record and talk about how long parts last. Run-it-until-it-breaks is not my favorite way of doing things. But also replacing everything long before it's needed seems like a huge waste too..... I guess the one saving grace in the automotive world is that, often times, as things are wearing out, they wear out slowly and can see the signs---you see small cracks, the parts start to have play in them vs being tight, you start seeing leaks, rubber gets hard and brittle, etc., so I guess there are warning signs as long as you are inspecting things. This is where a quality shop comes into play I guess. Another example of questions I ask: How long do the rear hubs and bearings last? I keep asking if we need to replace them. The answer is always no. I'm 6+ years into tracking the car and the original parts are still on there. We've replaced the front hubs. But the rears just keep going. How long will that party last?? How about the rear axles? Anyway, I gotta give credit to BMW---my car has held up quite well! The M3 seems to be built with some pretty strong parts that have endured a lot of heavy use! |
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01-19-2018, 12:09 AM | #571 | |
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I think with brakes it really depends what the car is used for an how long. If the car has slicks, a lot of downforce and a track that has a lot of hard braking to where the rotors glow, then more often on rotors/hats, they are seeing more stress and heat. I run slotted rotors. Drilled rotors are a little lighter but with hard track use they get stress cracks around the holes. Calipers generally don't wear out. Race calipers usually don't have dust boots around the piston. On a dual purpose car the dust boots keep dust from making microscopic scratches on the piston and tearing up the seal. On a race car no boots because the high heat can make them melt. So you rebuild the caliper more often which is taking it apart maybe 1500 grit wet sand any deposits, change seals and put back together. I think the same goes for wheel bearings and most other parts, high g forces and high loads shorten the life.
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01-21-2018, 07:11 PM | #572 | ||
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