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      04-05-2020, 09:08 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IamFODI View Post
Always found it fascinating how people respond on this topic.

I completely understand and generally agree with what simpleM3 is saying. There's enough evidence of a problem that it's reasonable to address it preemptively; at the same time, the evidence often seems overstated and the issue as a whole seems overblown. Often, not always. Overstated/overblown, not nonexistent. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

It's amazing how completely unacceptable that opinion is to so many people. Like, it's not just that people understand and reject it; they often don't even seem to get it in the first place. Someone always comes in with "you're either with us or against us". I.e., either you completely agree with everything said about how OE bearings suck and need to be replaced with aftermarket, or you think they're completely fine and never need to be touched.

I can't be the only one who feels like this is a needless forfeiture of social capital in this community. Shouldn't it be okay for some of us to have stronger or weaker opinions than others? Why get tribal over this?

I don’t agree. Either they need to be replaced or they don’t. The level of “hype” is irrelevant. Absent a valid predictor of bearing life, which might provide a third option, there is no middle ground.

They aren’t brake pads. They don’t go to a wear indicator. They are not supposed to wear at all.
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      04-05-2020, 12:57 PM   #46
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AutoTalent and BE Bearings are the same company in Gardena, CA. So always order direct from AutoTalent or BE Bearing for fastest service...instead of third parties.

Solid people and great shop, always packed with exotic cars. The BE bearings are made by Clevite, so there is always a wait.

https://autotalent.com/products/be-a...2-m3-2008-2013

https://autotalent.com/products/be-b...2-m3-2008-2013

If you have a 2011+ E9X M3, you dont have an issue, since the bearing material was switched to the harder aluminum/tin, from the softer copper/lead.

For 2008-2010 E9X M3s, use a Blackstone Oil Analysis if you are concerned about bearing wear. You will know in 2 weeks and it is cheap insurance. Otherwise, do an oil change at 5K mile intervals, instead of 10k-15k miles. If you have more than 120K miles, baby your car until you get the rod bearing service done.

Liquid Moly makes some oil additives like, CeraTec and MoS2, that you can try.

My 170k mile 2009 E90 M3 had little bearing wear, and I did 15k mile oil changes at the BMW dealership using that OEM 10w60 junk for 10 years.

Avoid slamming a trusted vendor in the BMW community online. This isn't Facebook and Twitter.


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      04-05-2020, 02:00 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyc_dude View Post

If you have a 2011+ E9X M3, you dont have an issue, since the bearing material was switched to the harder aluminum/tin, from the softer copper/lead.
Just so you are aware the harder bearing is not advantageous in a scenario where your hydrodynamic wedge is interrupted from oil starvation and contacts the crankshaft as it's going to be more likely to score the crank irreparably vs the butter-like lead babbitt.

The material was changed to meet hazardous materials reduction standards as lead is very toxic vs. any sort of improved performance from the harder tin shells

Note BE returns to the tri-layer lead babbitt design but with a coating.
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      04-05-2020, 03:48 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by serranot View Post
Either they need to be replaced or they don’t.
If you want to break it down like that, literally everyone here agrees.
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      04-05-2020, 04:18 PM   #49
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They need to be changed and when you do, you’re damned if they aren’t replaced with BE.


Quote:
Originally Posted by IamFODI View Post
If you want to break it down like that, literally everyone here agrees.
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      04-05-2020, 04:53 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by IamFODI View Post
If you want to break it down like that, literally everyone here agrees.
I’m laughing. There’s a lot of chatter if that’s the case. Everyone would nod and run out to replace their bearings.

I’m guessing there are just a bunch of people who don’t want to pay for it. It’s like a new furnace. You had heat before and you have heat now; the only difference is that your wallet is lighter. Unless your furnace blows up your house, you will never feel good about buying a new one.
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      04-05-2020, 05:06 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shredicus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyc_dude View Post

If you have a 2011+ E9X M3, you dont have an issue, since the bearing material was switched to the harder aluminum/tin, from the softer copper/lead.
Just so you are aware the harder bearing is not advantageous in a scenario where your hydrodynamic wedge is interrupted from oil starvation and contacts the crankshaft as it's going to be more likely to score the crank irreparably vs the butter-like lead babbitt.

The material was changed to meet hazardous materials reduction standards as lead is very toxic vs. any sort of improved performance from the harder tin shells

Note BE returns to the tri-layer lead babbitt design but with a coating.
I quit reading that post when I read 2011+ is non-issue
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      04-05-2020, 07:33 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by nyc_dude View Post

If you have a 2011+ E9X M3, you dont have an issue, since the bearing material was switched to the harder aluminum/tin, from the softer copper/lead.
Please explain what data you are using to support the statement above.

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      04-05-2020, 09:42 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scharbag View Post
Please explain what data you are using to support the statement above.

From BE bearing's site

"Newer factory bearings (2010.5 and later) are made from tin-aluminum, not lead-copper. Tin-aluminum bearings are 4-times harder on the surface than lead-copper bearings. This extra hardness shows signs of doing more damage to motors as there seems to be more bearing failures with 2010.5 and later vehicles. Tin-aluminum bearings also don't show the same signs of premature wear in Blackstone oil analysis due to lack of lead and copper."

Even though 2010.5 and up have harder bearings, that doesn't fix the clearance issue, which is the main problem. I have a 2011 and I'm going to get the bearings replaced with BE bearings this week.
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      04-05-2020, 09:52 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by R-35 View Post
From BE bearing's site

"Newer factory bearings (2010.5 and later) are made from tin-aluminum, not lead-copper. Tin-aluminum bearings are 4-times harder on the surface than lead-copper bearings. This extra hardness shows signs of doing more damage to motors as there seems to be more bearing failures with 2010.5 and later vehicles. Tin-aluminum bearings also don't show the same signs of premature wear in Blackstone oil analysis due to lack of lead and copper."

Even though 2010.5 and up have harder bearings, that doesn't fix the clearance issue, which is the main problem. I have a 2011 and I'm going to get the bearings replaced with BE bearings this week.
Exactly - I was curious as to how nyc_dude could support the statement that the newer bearings are A-OK...

Good times...
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      04-05-2020, 11:47 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R-35 View Post
From BE bearing's site

"Newer factory bearings (2010.5 and later) are made from tin-aluminum, not lead-copper. Tin-aluminum bearings are 4-times harder on the surface than lead-copper bearings. This extra hardness shows signs of doing more damage to motors as there seems to be more bearing failures with 2010.5 and later vehicles. Tin-aluminum bearings also don't show the same signs of premature wear in Blackstone oil analysis due to lack of lead and copper."

Even though 2010.5 and up have harder bearings, that doesn't fix the clearance issue, which is the main problem. I have a 2011 and I'm going to get the bearings replaced with BE bearings this week.
What a lovely position to be in when what ever you write about competition is taken as fact by the audience. Amen.
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      04-06-2020, 11:19 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Helmsman View Post
What a lovely position to be in when what ever you write about competition is taken as fact by the audience. Amen.
Now now, BE is simply stating facts.

1) Sn/Al bearings are simply harder than Pb/Cu - this is easily verified as true. There is also a great deal of information about this available online that shows that Pb alloy bearings are superior to Pb free bearings (see attached from an RoHS exemption request made by Caterpillar)

2) Neither 088/089 nor 702/703 bearings offer adequate nominal clearance as per all major bearing manufacturer's recommendations for high RPM engines

3) 088/089 and 702/703 shells can result in very tight tolerances based on the data collected and published

All of the data is available for your independent review. All of the raw datalog files were shared by AutoTalent. The entire investigation was well documented and shared to the community.

As my old boss used to say" "In God I trust, everyone else show me data."

Happy motoring!
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      04-06-2020, 11:34 AM   #57
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Also I recall from forum bearing engine data there is no shortage of 2011 bearing failures relative to earlier cars.
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      04-06-2020, 11:46 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyc_dude View Post
If you have a 2011+ E9X M3, you dont have an issue, since the bearing material was switched to the harder aluminum/tin, from the softer copper/lead.

Cheers
Stop spreading false information.

For one you cant track wear on 2011+ engines with blackstone furthermore 2011+ bearings are more likely to score the crank when you go through the hard top layer due to the nature of the bearing material composition.
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      04-06-2020, 01:09 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scharbag View Post
Now now, BE is simply stating facts.

As my old boss used to say" "In God I trust, everyone else show me data."

Happy motoring!
Thats my point mate, its all their own data...
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      04-06-2020, 02:50 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Helmsman View Post
Thats my point mate, its all their own data...
Just because it's their own data doesn't make it wrong. It's better to refute data with other data, not with unsupported allegations of bias.
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      04-06-2020, 03:29 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serranot View Post
Just because it's their own data doesn't make it wrong. It's better to refute data with other data, not with unsupported allegations of bias.
this

It would also be nice if instead of BE having to check the clearances of ACL, etc bearings, ACL took it upon themselves to provide their information

On top of it that people have spent hundreds of hours measuring and providing information for the community the new criticism is that it's 'their' data? So what, we'd be better off without it?
That's why we get what we deserve, which is tons of aftermarket parts with no performance advantages and in some cases performance decreases peddled on us by vendors who think a good logo is all that is needed. Perhaps those vendors are correct. God forbid you do the work and provide the data, then people sit on their couches saying data is invalid.

What a world we live in. Depressing

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      04-07-2020, 11:18 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
this

It would also be nice if instead of BE having to check the clearances of ACL, etc bearings, ACL took it upon themselves to provide their information

On top of it that people have spent hundreds of hours measuring and providing information for the community the new criticism is that it's 'their' data? So what, we'd be better off without it?
That's why we get what we deserve, which is tons of aftermarket parts with no performance advantages and in some cases performance decreases peddled on us by vendors who think a good logo is all that is needed. Perhaps those vendors are correct. God forbid you do the work and provide the data, then people sit on their couches saying data is invalid.

What a world we live in. Depressing
Hi SYT,

while some believe BE have a mission from above to produce The Golden rod shell in order to save The Grand S65B40, I believe they are a business, which is nothing wrong. As such it is common to investigate competitive landscape by measuring their products and estimating function. Most businesses doesn’t advertise their result other than “better performance/consumption/efficiency…etc” than average, but never the less typically based on similar investigations.
I agree BE have done a massive effort in investigating competition shells and as it seems they all came out worse than BE.

The other manufacturers haven’t done similar investigations in order to establish clearance and its variation simply because it is not possible, other than calculating Max/Min/Nominal dimensions based on assumed crank dimension, which for instance ACL does. This is where I never quite agreed with BE’s advertising (their “Wiki” page is in my mind a sales tool, not the bible, again fine); Measuring 10-15 cranks gives a good indication but the way these individual results is meant to be interpreted as a specification – i.e. valid for all engines – is obviously not possible. I also never understood the way BE come to “nominal” clearance but different story ( https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...1504908&page=3).

I’d probably would have BE if they could deliver when I replaced mine, maybe a tad lower price would have made me wait. So yes I believe they have a good product and yes I acknowledge their binning and matching to be a superior step in final testing. The hype and close to aggressive marketing makes me wonder though. When people are telling me I’m an idiot for not agreeing it makes me suspicious rather than convinced.

No harm meant - Cheers mate
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      04-07-2020, 11:23 AM   #63
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Quote:
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What a lovely position to be in when what ever you write about competition is taken as fact by the audience. Amen.
Where is the data from other sources then? VAC just tells you to trust their experience, then ships you bearings you didn't order.

eitherway, you shown nothing to backup your statements, the failures of newer bearings prove your claims to be made up/BS.
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      04-07-2020, 11:25 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmsman View Post
while some believe BE have a mission from above to produce The Golden rod shell in order to save The Grand S65B40, I believe they are a business, which is nothing wrong.
Yes but businesses fill a demand, they didn't create the problem, if there wasn't an issue or demand the business would fail. BE tried to narrow down the root cause and develop a possible solution. You either believe the data and agree there is a problem, or you don't.

Why even change your bearings if you believe there isn't a problem when there is data/facts aside from BE data showing you otherwise?



If there wasn't a problem, S65s wouldn't spin bearings and there would be no demand for BE/VAC/ACL S65 bearings .

Last edited by tdott; 04-07-2020 at 11:31 AM..
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      04-07-2020, 03:30 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmsman View Post
Hi SYT,

while some believe BE have a mission from above to produce The Golden rod shell in order to save The Grand S65B40, I believe they are a business, which is nothing wrong. As such it is common to investigate competitive landscape by measuring their products and estimating function. Most businesses doesn’t advertise their result other than “better performance/consumption/efficiency…etc” than average, but never the less typically based on similar investigations.
I agree BE have done a massive effort in investigating competition shells and as it seems they all came out worse than BE.

The other manufacturers haven’t done similar investigations in order to establish clearance and its variation simply because it is not possible, other than calculating Max/Min/Nominal dimensions based on assumed crank dimension, which for instance ACL does. This is where I never quite agreed with BE’s advertising (their “Wiki” page is in my mind a sales tool, not the bible, again fine); Measuring 10-15 cranks gives a good indication but the way these individual results is meant to be interpreted as a specification – i.e. valid for all engines – is obviously not possible. I also never understood the way BE come to “nominal” clearance but different story ( https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...1504908&page=3).

I’d probably would have BE if they could deliver when I replaced mine, maybe a tad lower price would have made me wait. So yes I believe they have a good product and yes I acknowledge their binning and matching to be a superior step in final testing. The hype and close to aggressive marketing makes me wonder though. When people are telling me I’m an idiot for not agreeing it makes me suspicious rather than convinced.

No harm meant - Cheers mate
BE are the people behind the theory that the extra-worn shells that come out of S65s is due to insufficient clearance.
They back that up with a massive amount of data. They are the only people to present data.

If one thinks BE is fishy or not trustworthy, does that mean they do not believe that there is insufficient clearance from the factory? That's fine by me. However I have lots of trouble understanding people criticizing BE -who provides data- but supporting other manufacturers that don't seem to know themselves what they sell.

Personally I think BE sells their bearings way too cheap. I'd charge 1k for the shells. When companies with blatant disregard for what they send -VAC I'm looking at you- charge the same as BE and get business anyway, well, something is wrong with the universe.

Cheers mate. Danny
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      04-07-2020, 06:23 PM   #66
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I don’t think a healthy skepticism on some specifics is mutually exclusive with general agreement.
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