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      12-12-2017, 10:50 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by vinylengraver View Post
Hey, I am a fan. I love my car. Because this car was still made by the BMW that was famous for their Ultimate Driving Machines.
But when your idols sell out and no longer stand for what you believe in... and start offering (Driving) Pleasure for money just to turn a profit... you end up disappointed.
Perhaps Car and Driver used to be fans too... and now they are a bit disappointed, just like me.
C&D were HUGE fans of BMW in the 90's and early 2000's. If any of these guys actually read C&D from that time period, they would see that too. Face the facts, the BMW that the world loved is dead.
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      12-12-2017, 11:52 PM   #90
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C&D were HUGE fans of BMW in the 90's and early 2000's. If any of these guys actually read C&D from that time period, they would see that too. Face the facts, the BMW that the world loved is dead.
LOL! As above, I bought my first M3 in 1999 largely as a result of the tremendous press it garnered especially in C&D. It saddens me that the brand no longer holds onto its once vaunted position in the performance car continuum, although, I think there are still models which will hang with anybody.
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      12-13-2017, 01:38 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes View Post
I prefer the bmw look to the more airplane inspired mercedes interiors but the seats and leather in the mercedes are superior to the BMW.
The problem with the F30/F80's interior is that it barely looks any different from that of the E9X generation cars, which debuted around 2006! To add to that, they took a step back in material quality. BMW's conservative "evolutionary" design theme works when your cars have other things going for it, like say best in class driving dynamics. However, that advantage is now long gone and we are left with cars that are lazy redesigns.

Merc changes their interior and exterior designs radically with every new generation. Their cars still look uniquely Mercedes, but offer a different take on the design language, much like what Bangle did with BMW exteriors and interiors.

In these photos, the Merc's interior clearly has a more engaging design, better and more "exotic" material quality, and overall feels like a very special place to sit inside. On the flip side, unless you haven't sat in a BMW since the E46, the current 3er's interior is more of the same we've been seeing over the past 11+ years.
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      12-13-2017, 02:00 PM   #92
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      12-13-2017, 02:47 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
The problem with the F30/F80's interior is that it barely looks any different from that of the E9X generation cars, which debuted around 2006! To add to that, they took a step back in material quality. BMW's conservative "evolutionary" design theme works when your cars have other things going for it, like say best in class driving dynamics. However, that advantage is now long gone and we are left with cars that are lazy redesigns.

Merc changes their interior and exterior designs radically with every new generation. Their cars still look uniquely Mercedes, but offer a different take on the design language, much like what Bangle did with BMW exteriors and interiors.

In these photos, the Merc's interior clearly has a more engaging design, better and more "exotic" material quality, and overall feels like a very special place to sit inside. On the flip side, unless you haven't sat in a BMW since the E46, the current 3er's interior is more of the same we've been seeing over the past 11+ years.
Not sure if I agree with that. I have an E92 and the F30/80 interior is way different. I really do like the F30/80s interior the most in that class. Also it's nice that BMW is keeping its interior design language which has always been purposeful and to the point.

On the Car and Driver note, I don't really value what they say anymore. They rated the S6 over the M5 which to me states they simply do not push the car hard enough during their tests. I have seen a few of their recent tests and not much makes sense. They hated the comp package F80 while motor trend loved it. These are all based on opinions and shouldn't be taken too seriously. I trust Chris Harris' point of view more, he goes more in depth about how the car feels at the limit.
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      12-13-2017, 04:05 PM   #94
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I trust Chris Harris' point of view more, he goes more in depth about how the car feels at the limit.
Which the vast, vast majority of us will never operate our vehicles even close to.

Chris Harris is great, but his reviews are geared toward the hardcore enthusiast -- something most of us are not. It's nice to hear that point of view because it represents a pinnacle of sorts that we all aspire to, but most of us simply don't live in that world regularly.

In that respect, C&D's point of view -- that of a more casual enthusiast that many more people slot into -- is inherently more useful. That's by design. Any one of the phalanx of C&D staffers past or present would trade shoes with Chris Harris in a heartbeat because most are actual hardcore enthusiasts -- and we get to see glimpses of that in columns, anecdotes, and such. But they can't position their editorial that way because the majority of the readership can't relate.

It's the classic conundrum of a critic: Do I talk about what I love in my language, or do I talk about what my readers love in their language? The correct answer is the latter for any critic worth their salt.
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      12-13-2017, 04:28 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
Which the vast, vast majority of us will never operate our vehicles even close to.

Chris Harris is great, but his reviews are geared toward the hardcore enthusiast -- something most of us are not. It's nice to hear that point of view because it represents a pinnacle of sorts that we all aspire to, but most of us simply don't live in that world regularly.

In that respect, C&D's point of view -- that of a more casual enthusiast that many more people slot into -- is inherently more useful. That's by design. Any one of the phalanx of C&D staffers past or present would trade shoes with Chris Harris in a heartbeat because most are actual hardcore enthusiasts -- and we get to see glimpses of that in columns, anecdotes, and such. But they can't position their editorial that way because the majority of the readership can't relate.

It's the classic conundrum of a critic: Do I talk about what I love in my language, or do I talk about what my readers love in their language? The correct answer is the latter for any critic worth their salt.
I agree with that, but they keep bashing BMW on how they have changed and they do not perform like they used to, but you can't rate a car's performance if you don't drive it hard (in my opinion at least) and in that case, why are they claiming that it's bad? Modern BMWs are great everyday casual cars, they're soft, silent and efficient so it should score points with them.

My point is, they are complaining about an aspect of the car which they haven't even really tested out properly. I feel like they keep emphasizing that new BMWs lack in performance when in reality they are still fastest in almost all categories (M cars).

Another funny article I saw recently was a E43 AMG beating a 540i in a comparison test (not sure if it was CD) and after taking a look at the pricing, I couldn't stop laughing. The E43 was around 96k, that is about 25k more expensive than the 540i that it competes with. A fully loaded M550i (which will destroy the E43 in every possible way) is cheaper than the E43. I feel like MB is really paying big bucks to some of these magazines. Also, GLC43 came in at 71k in another recent test.. this is a X3 M40i competitor, their prices are ridiculous.
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      12-13-2017, 05:00 PM   #96
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I think it all depends on what model is being tested. There are M drivers who buy the car because of its panache and its label.. But there are also M drivers who buy it because of its track cred. I cant speak for the rest of the BMW line, but BMW in the past, and to a limited degree in the present, has gone to great lengths to produce a great handling balanced machine which which exhibits its' stuff on the track near the limit.

To compare these models to Audi or MB at less than their limits is to totally disregard that which makes some M models what they are, and why they are appreciated as such.
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      12-13-2017, 05:45 PM   #97
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To compare these models to Audi or MB at less than their limits is to totally disregard that which makes some M models what they are, and why they are appreciated as such.
I disagree because the vast majority of M car buyers don't buy the car to exploit its track capabilities; they buy the car for its social cred. You say as much earlier in your post -- the difference here is that you feel it's only 'some' who buy it for this. I can say definitively that, at least in my city, it is most -- and marketing data and sales patterns point to it being most for the simple fact that save for the M2, M cars have evolved into luxury vehicles.

Track capability is an element of that for some of those customers, yes -- but the buyer will never actually put it to that use. It's that the car is capable of it that is appealing.

This is part and parcel of why mags such as C&D pair certain cars together. It's the mag staff's read of what the casual enthusiast will consider competing vehicles. "Competing" can mean everything from track times, sticker price, and chassis/drivetrain to social panache and which car's likely to be parked at the front of the valet stand instead of the lot across the street.
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      12-13-2017, 05:54 PM   #98
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Not sure if I agree with that. I have an E92 and the F30/80 interior is way different. I really do like the F30/80s interior the most in that class. Also it's nice that BMW is keeping its interior design language which has always been purposeful and to the point.

On the Car and Driver note, I don't really value what they say anymore. They rated the S6 over the M5 which to me states they simply do not push the car hard enough during their tests. I have seen a few of their recent tests and not much makes sense. They hated the comp package F80 while motor trend loved it. These are all based on opinions and shouldn't be taken too seriously. I trust Chris Harris' point of view more, he goes more in depth about how the car feels at the limit.
I'm pretty sure C&D has clamped down hard on the BMW hate because it's profitable for them. The cars are disappointing compared to their predecessors, but not as bad as C&D makes them out to be. Going overboard on the BMW criticism clearly draws online clicks and magazine sales.

Motor Trend did the same thing with its Cadillac boner. Hey, let's keep saying they are the greatest cars in the world because the pro-America crowd will love to hear it. It doesn't matter that save for steering/chassis tuning, all their sedans suck in every other facet and their non-existent sales reflect that.
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      12-13-2017, 06:13 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
I disagree because the vast majority of M car buyers don't buy the car to exploit its track capabilities; they buy the car for its social cred. You say as much earlier in your post -- the difference here is that you feel it's only 'some' who buy it for this. I can say definitively that, at least in my city, it is most -- and marketing data and sales patterns point to it being most for the simple fact that save for the M2, M cars have evolved into luxury vehicles.

Track capability is an element of that for some of those customers, yes -- but the buyer will never actually put it to that use. It's that the car is capable of it that is appealing.

This is part and parcel of why mags such as C&D pair certain cars together. It's the mag staff's read of what the casual enthusiast will consider competing vehicles. "Competing" can mean everything from track times, sticker price, and chassis/drivetrain to social panache and which car's likely to be parked at the front of the valet stand instead of the lot across the street.
Your insight is keen, and I agree with you that it's more the knowledge of your car's capability of kicking ass on the track, then it is the actual experience of doing so personally that lends street cred to these models. There's nothing like a Head to Head video showing your car kicking the snot out of the other make's entry, showing the driver's over the top gushing about all the fun hes having in your car while doing so, to gin up the enthusiasm of the potential buyer or interested party.

Your explanation of what comprises 'competing' is also right on, and might explain why you could potentially see an unexpected comparo between a GT350 and a Quadrofoglio.
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      12-13-2017, 06:31 PM   #100
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I can truthfully say that I have never purchased any of my vehicles based on a magazine review. It all came down to shopping around and driving what was available at the time that fit my needs, lifestyle, and sometimes connected with me on an emotional level. Whatever was the best car based on this, I then bought.

That said, I have had only one regret which was a '01 Dodge Durango that aged way quicker than it should have and basically was ready to wholesale out before it reached 80K miles. Many Toyotas have been parked in my driveway over the years as I found them to deliver the best overall package per dollar even if they weren't always the best "drivers" cars. The landscape has changed and that isn't necessarily the case any more. Being open minded is the best approach.

My three favorite cars which I have owned >
1978 SAAB EMS
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And hopefully 2017 BMW M2, but still too early to tell.

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      12-13-2017, 06:39 PM   #101
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Gt350, Camaro ZL1, AMG c63 are the main three that come to mind.
I'd throw in the Giulia Quadrifoglio. Driving this car on a mountain canyon road, even with a automatic transmission, blew my mind. It felt so much more raw than the F80 M3/M4. It delivered crazy precise steering feedback, handling was incredible and the car shrunk around you as you went faster... and the noise - it was a glorious sound coming from the engine and exhaust.

If they can address the reliability and put in a proper manual transmission, it'd be high on my list of M3 successor cars.
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      12-13-2017, 07:15 PM   #102
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I'd throw in the Giulia Quadrifoglio. Driving this car on a mountain canyon road, even with a automatic transmission, blew my mind. It felt so much more raw than the F80 M3/M4. It delivered crazy precise steering feedback, handling was incredible and the car shrunk around you as you went faster... and the noise - it was a glorious sound coming from the engine and exhaust.

If they can address the reliability and put in a proper manual transmission, it'd be high on my list of M3 successor cars.
That's my biggest issue with the M3/4...they feel too refined and isolated despite being so highly capable. I want some of the sheer rawness of the E9X back. That car made you feel at one with the road.
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      12-13-2017, 07:28 PM   #103
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I'd throw in the Giulia Quadrifoglio. Driving this car on a mountain canyon road, even with a automatic transmission, blew my mind. It felt so much more raw than the F80 M3/M4. It delivered crazy precise steering feedback, handling was incredible and the car shrunk around you as you went faster... and the noise - it was a glorious sound coming from the engine and exhaust.

If they can address the reliability and put in a proper manual transmission, it'd be high on my list of M3 successor cars.
You drove a Quad? Really? Lucky you. Did it feel at all 'quirky' inside? Anything really weird, or not what you expected in the layout? Is all the fawning and gushing by the automotive media justified? Sounds like it from your comments. And I bet that ferrari engine lives up to its reputation. Please.. give us a proper stick and some reliability, and I think they'll do really well with this model.. Sure wouldnt mind owning one myself. I have a neighbor who bought the TI model and he loves it.
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      12-13-2017, 07:48 PM   #104
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I'm pretty sure C&D has clamped down hard on the BMW hate because it's profitable for them. The cars are disappointing compared to their predecessors, but not as bad as C&D makes them out to be. Going overboard on the BMW criticism clearly draws online clicks and magazine sales.

Motor Trend did the same thing with its Cadillac boner. Hey, let's keep saying they are the greatest cars in the world because the pro-America crowd will love to hear it. It doesn't matter that save for steering/chassis tuning, all their sedans suck in every other facet and their non-existent sales reflect that.
The criticism doesn’t make sense to me because no other manufacturer is doing better. For example, no other luxury brand makes a fun to drive 6MT 240hp RWD coupe for 35k, but BMW does. In that category MB makes the CLA and Audi has the A3.

On the M3’s note, the Quad is the only other car I would consider and it would be a fight between those two. C63 is heavier, slower and more of a luxury item compared to the M3 and Quad. The ATS V doesn’t do anything for me either.
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      12-13-2017, 07:59 PM   #105
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Has any one her driven a Camry? Any Camry? My GF has a new one, it's good reliable transportation but a performance car it is not. Nice car though for 30k on the XSE.
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      12-13-2017, 08:10 PM   #106
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
I'd throw in the Giulia Quadrifoglio. Driving this car on a mountain canyon road, even with a automatic transmission, blew my mind. It felt so much more raw than the F80 M3/M4. It delivered crazy precise steering feedback, handling was incredible and the car shrunk around you as you went faster... and the noise - it was a glorious sound coming from the engine and exhaust.

If they can address the reliability and put in a proper manual transmission, it'd be high on my list of M3 successor cars.
You drove a Quad? Really? Lucky you. Did it feel at all 'quirky' inside? Anything really weird, or not what you expected in the layout? Is all the fawning and gushing by the automotive media justified? Sounds like it from your comments. And I bet that ferrari engine lives up to its reputation. Please.. give us a proper stick and some reliability, and I think they'll do really well with this model.. Sure wouldnt mind owning one myself. I have a neighbor who bought the TI model and he loves it.
It is definitely very nice! I drove it in Carmel for the Monterey car week. They hosted it at a winery... in typical Italian hospitality, they treated us to great wine, food and good jazz music. (only able to drink after the drive) The interior is kind of different with the start button on the steering wheel. For the most part, it's pretty normal inside. Material quality isn't that great but liveable. Exterior, the car looks so much more aggressive than a regular Giulia with the carbon fiber diffusers, quad exhausts and other unique Quadrifoglio parts. It looks like the Quad was the car car the Giulia was made to be... then they took off a bunch of stuff to make it cheaper for the regular model. The M3 is a tuned up 3 series, the Giulia is a down tuned Quadrifoglio.

The car lives up the hype. It was seriously impressive. During the whole drive, I was thinking to myself, this is the car BMW needs to make. It's pure fun, I was having a great time behind the wheel. Driving normally, it feels like a sedan. When you drive fast on twisty roads, it feels like you're driving a gokart - it darts and feels light on its feet, then when you feed the throttle, the big power comes on with a roar that changes to a scream as the RPM goes up and you're aware 500hp is under your foot. Lift throttle and it sounds like firecrackers popping on the overrun. No M3 from the last decade drives like that!

I'm just wary of the reliability. There's a lot of reports of cars breaking down and other issues.

I do have a video of me starting the car, but I haven't uploaded it.
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      12-13-2017, 08:29 PM   #107
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To me at least, the outer appearance was basically copied from the M3 and they added the signature Alfa triangular grille feature.
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      12-13-2017, 09:00 PM   #108
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Modern BMWs just suck relative to the competition. The brand threw away their USP, good steering feel, adept handling, stout engines, in the marketplace and went for chasing the everyman and the cash.

If driving dynamics are what you desire, you have to go domestic. A new Mustang, Camaro or Corvette obliterates a comparable M4 in ability and driving pleasure. As sad as this is, even the ancient 370Z offers superior driving dynamics, provided the brakes haven't caught fire yet.

Before you ask: Yes, I have driven all of them. BMW has lost their mojo.
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      12-13-2017, 09:12 PM   #109
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Quote:
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No M3 from the last decade drives like that!
I'm just wary of the reliability. There's a lot of reports of cars breaking down and other issues.
I do have a video of me starting the car, but I haven't uploaded it.
Yeah, M3 drives in a different way. Just need to know how to squeeze that engine. M3 is a very capable machine and has a different approach. Being in awe with Alfa's exhaust it doesn't mean is better.
As an ex owner of many cars the Alfa is the single one that put me in a tremendous distress. There were weeks when the car was seeing the shop every two days. In my family there was a Maserati with a similar reliability and boy what a lesson that was. I rather own a horse than any Italian car doesn't matter which one.
Secondly, have a look at Alfa's interior and be patient, the crickets will show up soon...
it is not If is When...
maybe I am in minority here but boy, that Alfa is really ugly to me.

And BTW, I will take a 240M over Alfa anytime.
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      12-13-2017, 10:03 PM   #110
Booie
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Drives: 2014 650ix
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Mass.

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I've owned a 2014 650ix for 3 months and can't believe how overrated this car is. Always some little thing going wrong. Burning a qt every 500 miles and I'm told this is NORMAL. For 100K it's a joke. Give me a good jap car anyday. Beat em all day, never brake, handle great and hold there value. Ultimate Driving Machine = Fake news. Would sell it if I could get close to what I paid. Offered 10K less from Carmax. Never again.

Booie

May want to look into this.

http://www.bmwoilconsumptionlawsuit.com/
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