The unacceptable danger of modern track-day coaching - Road & Track

[LiM3y]

Originally Posted by Triple M

FTS and CSBM5 both hit the nail right on the head. What what worked in instructing 20-30 years ago when power and car weight was less is different from what would work with today's car's monstrous power. For God sakes, if F1 and other forms of motor sport thought it was an unacceptable to take such risk, why should the rest of us with resource and technology think we know better. Its still amazes me how some of the greatest talents in the sport lost their loves doing it and we can't use "lack of skill" or "poor judgment" as an excuse. Car of nowadays are just blistering fast in my opinion. 1 hot lap in friend's ZR1 was enough for to say "this is not for me". One of the winding road article pointed out that today's car design is clearly the opposite of what a track car should be 3800 lbs, lumpy suspension, and mushy street pad, yet we try to drive them at the limit. I mean, why track pad, why coilovers, why nannies??? etc. they are all efforts that are aimed in an effort to get the car around the track faster without killing ourselves in the process. My old E30 M3, and miata is a more forgiving car with street pads on track than my E92 M3. It's amazing when you look at "race cars" nowadays and you see "race ABS", "race TC" why? I wonder why . We all know why. Good friend of mine sold his GT3 said it was "too much of a car to handle at limit", bought a BRZ, had it fully caged and fully built by local Subi Zenkai Motorsport and he's much happier. Bottom line is most these vehicles would be close to impossible to drive even on public roads for the average joe without electronics. That's the reality of today's cars obesity coupled with excessive power needed to propel them, then we decide to turn some of them into track cars and it gets a little more serious from there. I'd still love to see a RWD skyline GTR.

This sounds like the opposite argument of the NRA and guns…it's not the people, it's the cars!



[Oh Shit! Heads Down! Incoming!]

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Do you not think part of the problem is that with so much more disposable income and the lower cost threshold of very powerful cars - that ever younger people are getting behind the wheel of cars that are far too powerful for their limited experience and abilities.
When you look at some of the threads like - my MT grinds when I change gear or should I switch off DSC etc etc its scary.
If you own a high powered car should you not already have a pretty decent understanding of the dynamics of driving it at speed, ok so someone might need to give you a few track pointers but jeez if you can't drive a track how dangerous are you on the street?

+1! It's the idiotic, "macho" culture of our hobby. The issue isn't so much the high horsepower modern cars, but rather, the ignorant disabling of modern stability control systems. Most stability control systems now have a race mode, which rarely overinhibits driving. It also now takes a total pro to extract any type of extra performance measured in lower laptimes, after disabling these systems. Lastly, certain tracks should just not allow noobs. For instance all the Alan Wilson designed tracks are great for novices. Plenty of run off room, with little to no elevation changes. I just don't see how it's possible to wreck your car at gingerman, or mid-America. Other tracks, on the other hand are deadly, even for pros, with walls, guardrails, L shaped turns, blind corners, and sick elevation changes. These tracks eat plenty of cars each year, and are no place for a noob to learn, instructed or not.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

When you look at some of the threads like - my MT grinds when I change gear or should I switch off DSC etc etc its scary.

I'm sorry but that should I switch off DSC thread was stone cold stupid! I lost a lot of respect for members of this forum after reading through all that. A noob asks a basic, very important question, and all of a sudden everyone's a professional formula 1 racer. Before you knew it, cat fights between internet "pro racers" broke out left and right, with serious hurt feelings all over the place. It's not surprising that people are dying when noobs can't even get a basic question answered, without plenty of chest beating.

[USCTrojanMan29]

Originally Posted by Triple M

FTS and CSBM5 both hit the nail right on the head. What what worked in instructing 20-30 years ago when power and car weight was less is different from what would work with today's car's monstrous power. For God sakes, if F1 and other forms of motor sport thought it was an unacceptable to take such risk, why should the rest of us with resource and technology think we know better. Its still amazes me how some of the greatest talents in the sport lost their loves doing it and we can't use "lack of skill" or "poor judgment" as an excuse. Car of nowadays are just blistering fast in my opinion. 1 hot lap in friend's ZR1 was enough for to say "this is not for me". One of the winding road article pointed out that today's car design is clearly the opposite of what a track car should be 3800 lbs, lumpy suspension, and mushy street pad, yet we try to drive them at the limit. I mean, why track pad, why coilovers, why nannies??? etc. they are all efforts that are aimed in an effort to get the car around the track faster without killing ourselves in the process. My old E30 M3, and miata is a more forgiving car with street pads on track than my E92 M3. It's amazing when you look at "race cars" nowadays and you see "race ABS", "race TC" why? I wonder why . We all know why. Good friend of mine sold his GT3 said it was "too much of a car to handle at limit", bought a BRZ, had it fully caged and fully built by local Subi Zenkai Motorsport and he's much happier. Bottom line is most these vehicles would be close to impossible to drive even on public roads for the average joe without electronics. That's the reality of today's cars obesity coupled with excessive power needed to propel them, then we decide to turn some of them into track cars and it gets a little more serious from there. I'd still love to see a RWD skyline GTR.

I'll be the first to admit that the GT3 can be a little scary when you are even going 8/10th. I doubt that I'll ever go above 7/10th with nannies off even if I do master car control. All it takes is a little bump or small driver error and you are asking for big trouble with nannies off. The car can react/correct things a lot faster than even a pro can when a mistake is made. It does sound like the M3 nannies are more intrusive than the GT3 nannies. I enjoy the social aspect and blowing some steam off at the track, trying to improve my lap times is secondary to me. That being said, I'll see you out at Spring Mountain this weekend.

[bigjae1976]

500hp cars? I still see that as the exception rather than the rule..at least at the events I participate in.

I can't think of a student that just turned DSC off that wasn't a little nervous or hesitant. I know there are idiots out there that can't drive and turn it off...but this is, IMO, the exception rather than the rule.

After reading through this again...my observation is that most people that come to the track are pretty serious about the safety aspect. THAT'S WHY THEY ARE AT THE TRACK! Most are car nuts and care about their cars. If anything, most end up loving their cars even more after their first event. And students have made a significant investment into one event...fees, hotels, gas, time away, tech, car prep, etc. So the last thing they want is to crash or damage their car.

While there IS a problem and I think the sport needs to change, I don't think, as an instructor with a well run DE org, will encounter a yahoo very often or have to tolerate them for very long. I don't want to make the perception that death or even crashing is imminent. Don't forget that the DE org running the event plays a HUGE role in how much risk you'll face.

But the sport of HPDE can't wait until its a crisis to change. Change does need to happen now.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

But the sport of HPDE can't wait until its a crisis to change. Change does need to happen now.

Yes I whole heartedly agree. We have to have the mentality that even a single incident of a major injury or death of a student and/or instructor should be considered "too many." We also cannot think that it will not happen in our own 'well run' organizations, I seriously don't want to think of a day that it happens in an event, which I am helping its organization and have responsibilities to the attendees and the organization; a nightmare scenario for me.

[OC3]

No death/injury in this footage, but how'd you like to get killed by these numbnuts while waiting at a redlight...

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

I'm sorry but that should I switch off DSC thread was stone cold stupid! I lost a lot of respect for members of this forum after reading through all that. A noob asks a basic, very important question, and all of a sudden everyone's a professional formula 1 racer. Before you knew it, cat fights between internet "pro racers" broke out left and right, with serious hurt feelings all over the place. It's not surprising that people are dying when noobs can't even get a basic question answered, without plenty of chest beating.

The point I was trying to make was: how the hell can someone be in possession of a 414bhp RWD performance car NOT know what the effect of switching off the DSC/TC will be. If you are having to ask the question "should I switch off the DSC" then the answer is most definitely NO.
Overconfident inexperienced young drivers are already the most dangerous driver group on public roads, in a 400 bhp M3 they become a very high risk group. Track tuition is going to help these guys but its a group that needs more than everyday instructors.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

After reading through this again...my observation is that most people that come to the track are pretty serious about the safety aspect. THAT'S WHY THEY ARE AT THE TRACK! Most are car nuts and care about their cars. If anything, most end up loving their cars even more after their first event. And students have made a significant investment into one event...fees, hotels, gas, time away, tech, car prep, etc. So the last thing they want is to crash or damage their car.

While there IS a problem and I think the sport needs to change, I don't think, as an instructor with a well run DE org, will encounter a yahoo very often or have to tolerate them for very long. I don't want to make the perception that death or even crashing is imminent. Don't forget that the DE org running the event plays a HUGE role in how much risk you'll face.

But the sport of HPDE can't wait until its a crisis to change. Change does need to happen now.

Couple things: I've been in the game since 2009, and have done anywhere from 5-10 events at different tracks per year since then. I've seen an average of 1-2 crashes per event. Basically, there is no event that I don't see some type of incident. I can definitely say that the novice group, is being unfairly singled out. The group that crashes the most is intermediate by far! That's because you've moved your noob butt out of novice, and now you want to show off skills, and are "experimenting" with DSC off. The car that I've seen crash the most is the WRX STI, followed by the Lancer Evo. Chalk that up to an AWD false sense of security. The car that I've never seen crash is the GTR.

Lastly, I wouldn't use the word "sport" to describe HPDE. This actually contributes to the issue of accidents. I think the best way to describe it is: "recreational circuit driving".

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by FTS

Yes I whole heartedly agree. We have to have the mentality that even a single incident of a major injury or death of a student and/or instructor should be considered "too many." We also cannot think that it will not happen in our own 'well run' organizations, I seriously don't want to think of a day that it happens in an event, which I am helping its organization and have responsibilities to the attendees and the organization; a nightmare scenario for me.

+1!, +1!, and +1! What's a "well run organization" anyways? We'll all have our biased opinions about which ones we like. I prefer the term reputable organization myself. Personally, I think that you just can't get anymore reputable or experienced than historic domestic muscle car clubs. Most have been around since the 50s. My personal favorites are the Northwoods Shelby club, or the Mustang Central Club of Iowa. This "well run organization", had several intermediate crashes, with the organizer screaming his lungs off at his intermediates. He then follows it up by showing us all how to crash in the Advanced group:

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

The point I was trying to make was: how the hell can someone be in possession of a 414bhp RWD performance car NOT know what the effect of switching off the DSC/TC will be. If you are having to ask the question "should I switch off the DSC" then the answer is most definitely NO.
Overconfident inexperienced young drivers are already the most dangerous driver group on public roads, in a 400 bhp M3 they become a very high risk group. Track tuition is going to help these guys but its a group that needs more than everyday instructors.

I've witnessed it myself, back when I was running my 335I. DSC off in an brand new E92 M3:

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

+1! It's the idiotic, "macho" culture of our hobby. The issue isn't so much the high horsepower modern cars, but rather, the ignorant disabling of modern stability control systems. Most stability control systems now have a race mode, which rarely overinhibits driving. It also now takes a total pro to extract any type of extra performance measured in lower laptimes, after disabling these systems. Lastly, certain tracks should just not allow noobs. For instance all the Alan Wilson designed tracks are great for novices. Plenty of run off room, with little to no elevation changes. I just don't see how it's possible to wreck your car at gingerman, or mid-America. Other tracks, on the other hand are deadly, even for pros, with walls, guardrails, L shaped turns, blind corners, and sick elevation changes. These tracks eat plenty of cars each year, and are no place for a noob to learn, instructed or not.

I don't think it's the track or the cars. It's the driver. There are plenty of drivers who have learned on "dangerous" tracks and have never had any incidents. One of my early track days was Laguna Seca in the rain and I think I went to Sonoma Raceway on my 4th or 5th track day. That track is covered with walls. I never had an "ohsh!t" moment in my early days on the track because I left MDM on and I listened to my instructors, drove slowly, focused on looking ahead, being smooth, and learning the driving/race line. Also worth noting that I had an instructor sitting in my car for every session of my first 4 track days.

My mentality as a new guy at the track who has come from 20 years of experience driving on the road was, "Wow, I'm a horrible driver. I need to drop any ego and learn everything I can." I always assumed that most new track guys feel like that, but I guess not. Track days were not enough for me. I wanted to become a better driver faster and 1 track day every month just wasn't enough seat time and it wasn't the best place to learn car control. So I supplemented track time with any skid pad/autox course time I could so I could get the feel of the car with DSC OFF, and I took an advanced car control class with Skip Barber which taught me the correct way to control oversteer, be comfortable with it, and use it to my advantage.

The biggest factor in my rapid driving improvement came from taking everything I learned in real life and practicing in simulators. People mock "video games" like Gran Turismo as just a game, but when you have the proper hardware setup and apply real driving skill, it's quite realistic. At least realistic enough to where it actually makes you a better driver at the track. I would spend maybe 2-3 hours max on track at a typical HPDE. Then I would spend 2-3 hours a night driving the same track in the same car in GT5 and apply everything I learned in real life to the game. Each subsequent time I went back to laguna seca, I would be 2-3 seconds faster and far more comfortable.

My M3 was the first car I've ever taken to the track. Started about 2.5 years ago and have done 30 track days now. I started running DSC OFF on my 6th track day and that was after a few skid pad/autox events and that Skip Barber Advanced CC. I've spun out exactly 0 times (besides the one time I was intentionally trying to hold a drift too long at a private event). I could be a lot faster, but my lap times show that I'm definitely not going slow. When I drive with MDM on at the track, it feels like my car is broken. It intervenes far too much. Driving with DSC OFF early was one of the best things I've done, but I feel like I went about it in the right way. So I don't think DSC OFF is inherently the problem either.

My point is, there are guys with huge egos who just go out there and want to show off how fast their car is, and there are others who really want to learn to be good drivers and take the time to do it in a safe manner. The problem lies in the drivers that show up to HPDE's with the wrong mentality and maybe there's an issue with how beginners advance too quickly in HPDE's. It's not the tracks, the cars, or DSC OFF. I'm right with you on your first sentence.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Couple things: I've been in the game since 2009, and have done anywhere from 5-10 events at different tracks per year since then. I've seen an average of 1-2 crashes per event. Basically, there is no event that I don't see some type of incident. I can definitely say that the novice group, is being unfairly singled out. The group that crashes the most is intermediate by far! That's because you've moved your noob butt out of novice, and now you want to show off skills, and are "experimenting" with DSC off. The car that I've seen crash the most is the WRX STI, followed by the Lancer Evo. Chalk that up to an AWD false sense of security. The car that I've never seen crash is the GTR.

Lastly, I wouldn't use the word "sport" to describe HPDE. This actually contributes to the issue of accidents. I think the best way to describe it is: "recreational circuit driving".

I've been doing HPDEs a little longer than you. I've seen 6 crashes.

I will agree that the risks increase as you go up in speed and run groups. But to generalize everyone and every event based of your experience is wrong. Because not everyone experiences an average of a crash per event. Yeah, I've driven in TX where there are tracks with run off BUT there are plenty of dangerous turns. I've also done 5 days at the Milwaukee Mile where there are walls on both sides of the track and zero grass on the exits of the fastest turns. I've seen 3 spins/offs. No crashes...that's it.

There's the difference...different DE orgs attract a certain kind of person. I've driven with a wide range of DE orgs and there is a wide range of attention to safety. The difference with the DE org I drove and instructed with in TX IS they discuss, in depth, what to do when a driver goes off. Instructors are EXPECTED to discuss this with the students. Lap times are not discussed between students and instructors. I actually discourage lap timing in the novice and intermediate groups.

I would re-evaluate who you drive with if you're seeing at least a crash per event. I would not tolerate that rate of incidents...I wouldn't be doing HPDEs if I thought a crash at an event was normal.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by FTS

We also cannot think that it will not happen in our own 'well run' organizations

I think there is an interesting perception of what a well run event is.

"Man, I ran with balls to the wall track driving org and they have me tons of open track time. Best track event ever".

I think too many people get sucked into the open track thing. IMO, driving on open track is much easier and gets boring. I don't mind negotiating traffic which I think tests so many critical skills for an intermediate driver. How many times do you see the bad offs and incidents from taking a pass or getting impatient to get a pass?

I also see "automatic promotions" based on # of events. You can still be a shitty, unsafe driver after spending 10,000 hours on track.

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I've been doing HPDEs a little longer than you. I've seen 6 crashes.

I will agree that the risks increase as you go up in speed and run groups. But to generalize everyone and every event based of your experience is wrong. Because not everyone experiences an average of a crash per event. Yeah, I've driven in TX where there are tracks with run off BUT there are plenty of dangerous turns. I've also done 5 days at the Milwaukee Mile where there are walls on both sides of the track and zero grass on the exits of the fastest turns. I've seen 3 spins/offs. No crashes...that's it.

There's the difference...different DE orgs attract a certain kind of person. I've driven with a wide range of DE orgs and there is a wide range of attention to safety. The difference with the DE org I drove and instructed with in TX IS they discuss, in depth, what to do when a driver goes off. Instructors are EXPECTED to discuss this with the students. Lap times are not discussed between students and instructors. I actually discourage lap timing in the novice and intermediate groups.

I would re-evaluate who you drive with if you're seeing at least a crash per event. I would not tolerate that rate of incidents...I wouldn't be doing HPDEs if I thought a crash at an event was normal.

There's a lot of crashes at hpde's in California. I've run with almost every group from drift/time trial/race focused groups (I never run in those specific run groups) to very "safe" groups like HoD and BMWCCA and have seen crashes. I've been to an event with 3-4 crashes in a day. Luckily none have ever involved multiple cars. It's almost always a car spinning into a wall. Lots of them happen to be GT3's

[USCTrojanMan29]

So here's my question about DSC (or TC/SC)...why even turn it off if you are driving smoothly? Because if you drive smoothly, it won't get in the way in the first place...right? Turning them off and having to make corrections implies that you are not driving smoothly, correct? I noticed that the smoother I am the less TC/SC comes on for me when I leave them on.

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by USCTrojanMan29

So here's my question about DSC (or TC/SC)...why even turn it off if you are driving smoothly? Because if you drive smoothly, it won't get in the way in the first place...right? Turning them off and having to make corrections implies that you are not driving smoothly, correct? I noticed that the smoother I am the less TC/SC comes on for me when I leave them on.

I can feel my car hesitate at almost every corner I come out of with MDM on. And I consider myself a fairly smooth driver (of course there's always room for improvement). When I was at Skip Barber, the instructors also made it very clear that driving with any traction control aid will slow a good driver down. The only place traction control helps me go faster is in the rain, but I run rainy days with DSC off as well because I just don't want to get used to relying on it.

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by USCTrojanMan29

So here's my question about DSC (or TC/SC)...why even turn it off if you are driving smoothly? Because if you drive smoothly, it won't get in the way in the first place...right? Turning them off and having to make corrections implies that you are not driving smoothly, correct? I noticed that the smoother I am the less TC/SC comes on for me when I leave them on.

Dsc cuts in well below the slip angle needed to get the most out of a tire. A lot of slide or slip is slower, but a little bit is necessary to get to the last few seconds per lap of a car's true potential. Smooth inputs are overrated, by the way. The only thing that matters is the loads the tires sees. If that means you have to swing the wheel back and forth wildly, then so be it. See every in-car video of a fast driver ever. Smoothness, and timing, are probably most important on throttle application, but the dsc system will still pull power and brake a wheel before you get to max acceleration potential in a turn, because it starts to detect the yaw caused by power application and cuts in before the yaw can get worse, it is designed to be proactive because a reactive only sysytem wouldn't catch a lot of it.

MdM has a higher threshold for this but that has its own problems as it tries to trail brake the inside wheels into every corner, masking poor inputs and worse, cooking brakes.

If learning is the primary goal, Switch it off. If you're just out there to have a good time and don't want to lose it, leave it on but your learning curve will not be as steep and it could cause some false starts.

[USCTrojanMan29]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Dsc cuts in well below the slip angle needed to get the most out of a tire. A lot of slide or slip is slower, but a little bit is necessary to get to the last few seconds per lap of a car's true potential. Smooth inputs are overrated, by the way. The only thing that matters is the loads the tires sees. If that means you have to swing the wheel back and forth wildly, then so be it. See every in-car video of a fast driver ever. Smoothness, and timing, are probably most important on throttle application, but the dsc system will still pull power and brake a wheel before you get to max acceleration potential in a turn, because it starts to detect the yaw caused by power application and cuts in before the yaw can get worse, it is designed to be proactive because a reactive only sysytem wouldn't catch a lot of it.

MdM has a higher threshold for this but that has its own problems as it tries to trail brake the inside wheels into every corner, masking poor inputs and worse, cooking brakes.

If learning is the primary goal, Switch it off. If you're just out there to have a good time and don't want to lose it, leave it on but your learning curve will not be as steep and it could cause some false starts.

Interesting, I had an E92 M3 but never tracked it so I never got to feel the DSC kick in. I've heard (and felt) that the Porsche version of DSC (TC/SC) is a lot more liberal than DSC in a BMW and doesn't get in the way as much. I noticed that it comes on when I'm not smooth, pinch turns, or don't let the wheel unwind. It does flicker on certain spots of a track no matter how smooth I am (primarily turns with elevation changes). You can turn SC off and keep TC on with the .2 997s which is probably equal to Euro MDM. I sometimes turn the nannies off the last session of the day as there's less people and I won't be setting an personal bet times.

[AxisMagi]

Instructors should have modified drivers education track cars that have two
steering wheels and sets of pedals so that the instructor can intervene
when the student makes a potentially disastrous mistake.

I'm very grateful to all the instructors who took the great risk to teach me,
it would have been very difficult to learn without them.
The thing that I learned the most from was having my instructor
drive my car flat out so that I could feel exactly what he's doing.
It immediately translated because I knew the feeling of my own car
so well.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by AxisMagi

Instructors should have modified drivers education track cars that have two
steering wheels and sets of pedals so that the instructor can intervene
when the student makes a potentially disastrous mistake.

I'm very grateful to all the instructors who took the great risk to teach me,
it would have been very difficult to learn without them.
The thing that I learned the most from was having my instructor
drive my car flat out so that I could feel exactly what he's doing.
It immediately translated because I knew the feeling of my own car
so well.

Once someone pitches it sideways in a precarious spot another driver taking over is hardly gonna be ideal. Might partially save it but reacting late usually doesn't help much.

[Shaung]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Couple things: I've been in the game since 2009, and have done anywhere from 5-10 events at different tracks per year since then. I've seen an average of 1-2 crashes per event. Basically, there is no event that I don't see some type of incident. I can definitely say that the novice group, is being unfairly singled out. The group that crashes the most is intermediate by far! That's because you've moved your noob butt out of novice, and now you want to show off skills, and are "experimenting" with DSC off. The car that I've seen crash the most is the WRX STI, followed by the Lancer Evo. Chalk that up to an AWD false sense of security. The car that I've never seen crash is the GTR.

Lastly, I wouldn't use the word "sport" to describe HPDE. This actually contributes to the issue of accidents. I think the best way to describe it is: "recreational circuit driving".

I have heard that there is an issue with all wheel drive and throttle lift off in high speed turns