New guy asking for advice...2013 M3 or 2016 M4

[SCKOMS]

Greetings. I'm considering adding another car. Something that can serve as a DD but also do HPDE duty.

Some background info...I just returned a leased 2017 NSX early because I never fell in love with the car...it was crazy fast, but too digital. It just did not feel engaging. Prior to that I had a 2011 R8 V10 spyder that I loved and regret trading for the NSX. My current "track car" is a 2006 Ferrari 430 spider (F1 tranny) and I'm looking to give it a break but want something with reasonably close performance and handling.

I have driven both a 2013 M3 (frozen black...gorgeous!) and a 2016 M4 convertible (drop top is a must) and I like both cars. Obviously the M4 is faster with a lot more torque and with better tech, but which provides a better "driving experience"? If I get the M3 will I be lusting after more power?

I know these things are highly subjective but I would appreciate any insights form owners, preferably those that have owned both...I am also posting this in the F80 forum to get responses from both sides.

Thanks in advance

[roastbeef]

i think you already know. the nsx was faster than both cars, but didn't really speak to you... i think the e93 is closer to what you're looking for. put in some solid subframe bushings to tighten it up a bit and you have a more modern feeling car with more soul.

[pbonsalb]

Due to the added weight of the 2013 convertible, performance suffers given that the S65 is not big on torque with only 4.0L and 4000 lbs to move. I’d go for the 2016 if you must have a convertible. You have and have had some fancy cars and been disappointed with one that most rave about so you will be hard to please. You should spend some time driving whatever you think you want before buying.

[Redd]

If what you want is the drop top experience, a nice coastal road, top down, and a NA V8 singing in front of you is an experience that will be tough to beat.

If you want a drop too that will be fast on track, u really can't bear turbo torque.

So, horses for courses. In the long run, I suspect you may fall in love with the V8 more than the Turbo I6.

[SAMM3Y]

If you're coming from supercars you'll be disappointed with an e series M because you'll have to constantly thrash it to perform and the F series will be faster but seem too tame. Why not look at drop top vette's or a Jag f-type SVR?
Do you need the back seat? What about a z4m40i if you like a bm roadster... the f430 is a great car, I feel you'll be let down with either of your original choices...

[Bemo]

V8 all day long. Looking at and listening to F8Xs is an exercise in anger management on so many levels. BMW shit the bed BIG time on that one.

[JRF]

More weight, more software, more nanny aids, more complexity, more video game driving experience.......Acura killed the NSX with the 2nd gen just like BMW killed the M3 with the F80.

Go find a nice E9X.

[Mvy]

I feel the driving experience is more engaging when there are less nanny systems and less digital screens. I like cars where I can feel the nuances of steering and cornering in my hands and feet. I prefer the S65. The way to overcome the complaints is to supercharge it. I think you would then find it to be superior to a newer M4.

[Redd]

I'm curious what the F8x forum guys are saying...

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by Redd

I'm curious what the F8x forum guys are saying...

This: https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1637691

[Helmsman]

OP, like the guys says the E9M needs to be trashed to be fast, compared to your previous wheels the E9M probably provide more soul than power. Try both out and report back buddy.

[SCKOMS]

Thanks for all the feedback. Interestingly a couple of guys here suggested M4 might be more suitable but of the few who responded on the M4 forum none suggested the M3.
I think I need more seat time.

What's involved in adding a suoercharger to an M3 (cost) and does it affect reliability or longevity?

[JackieChiles]

Personally, having driven both I found them to be vastly different in feel and character. Much more of a revolution than evolution.

With that said, to me it was clear that I liked one more than the other, I didn’t find them very comparable. Totally different type of driving experience.

As you can tell, I made my choice. Drive them more and it should become clear which one is for you.

One thing I will say is that if you are thinking extensive mods will be required to get the car to the point you will be happy, this car probably isn’t for you. Buy a car closer to what you really want in the first place.

[PKL]

IF a supercharger is an option for you, it isn't for me living in California, then most definitely you should get an E92 or E90 M3 with a supercharger. The weight of the convertible is a no thank you. I have been tempted to upgrade from my E92 to a 2019 M4 ZCP, but I have decided to stay strong and stick with my 2011 E92 with 38k miles. It is perfect in every way

[Redd]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

This: https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1637691

In a way I agree with what the F8x guys are saying. I came from a series of turbo cars into the E92 M3 and I was underwhelmed my first month with the car. No torque to speak of.

But while I missed the shove in the ass from the turbos, I realized that the S65 picked up speed at an insane rate, and kept pulling til 8k where turbos would have run out of steam at 5.5k. Turbos gave you that strong initial push in the back, then it settled down and you felt the push lessen after 5.5k. The V8 initial push is smaller, but that pressure remains until you decided to shift at 8k+. The V8 wasn't slower, it just felt different.

Then I got a BPM stage 2 tune and that greatly increased the low end torque and overall driveability for me. Solid rear subframe bushes made the chassis feel one generation newer and tighter (totally agree that stock E9x M3 chassis felt sloppy). Android iDrive screen brought the in-car tech into the modern era.

Granted it's not fair to compare a modded E9x M3 with a stock F8x. Just trying to say that there are ways to make an E9x more like F8x in all the areas that matter. But there's no way to make an F8x sound like an E9x.

Looks wise, the F8x generation is gorgeous, especially the M4. Real head turner, whereas the E9x M3 looks a bit 'soft' by today's standards. F8x cabin looks slightly newer but still nowhere as nice as AMG interiors of this generation so I don't think it's much to shout about there.

For me the litmus test was this - With my previous turbo cars, I realized I started getting bored of them after 3 yrs, and changed them in the 4/5th year. I plan to keep the E9x M3 forever, and I'd be lying if I said the V8 wasn't a huge part of that decision. Good luck!

[tdott]

OPs track car is a small displacement 4.3L V8 that revs to 8500rpm.

If he is in love with that, this shouldn't even be a question.

[jd501]

Originally Posted by tdott

OPs track car is a small displacement 4.3L V8 that revs to 8500rpm.

If he is in love with that, this shouldn't even be a question.

Good observation. I've driven my friend's 06' F430 extensively, and it's remarkably similar in characteristics to the E92, not just engine, but in handling and shifting also.

[neilum]

I'll start by saying people who say you need to rev the E90 xM to have fun is just silly IMO. Some of the best cars I've driven need to be revved out to really go fast but there's a difference between truly going fast and having fun. Yes on the track you need to be on boil because the E90 M is more of a momentum car than the F80, but driving around having some fun? Come on... Car has plenty of power, it's not a Miata or an S2000.


I'll also keep this short but the E90 does the following better than the F80.

- Way better sound.
- More linear throttle.
- More linear power
- More balanced chassis
- Better dampened.
- Better overall balance. The E90 M's chassis and engine feel like they are 100% designed from the ground up to work together. The F80 feels like it has all the hardware needed to go fast, but lacks integration of all the systems. It feels more out of sync and "thrown together" without feeling balanced as a whole.
- Smaller in size physically. The F80 has a higher belt line, and despite weighing less than the E90 it feels bigger when you drive it.
- E90 is easier to drive and get closer to its limits. It's more approachable. The F80 is faster yes but put the average driver in it and they won't get close to it's limits.
- E90 is more progressive. Because it is N/A and has much better overall balance the car feels easier to control and more natural.
- Steering feel

Those are my thoughts after owning both. The F80 is a good car, and E90 M is a great one despite all of the easy surface level internet BS you'll read about the E90 saying its heavy, and has no torque. Ok, sure, whatever the internet says!!! ; )


E90 has its flaws too no doubt. It gets crappy gas mileage, is not as fast on paper, looks a bit dated, interior is simple but not Merc nice and may not be noticed by as many people if you care about such things.

I also realize the F80 has vastly improved over the years from the original release which was a complete mess full of bugs and honestly terrible OEM tuning to the comp, to the CS etc. I think my point stands though, the F80 didn't live up to the bar set by its predecessors IMO at the end of the day.

E90 is memorable and a way more visceral experience. I don't remember the F80 being .5 seconds faster at all. I do remember however feeling like my car being completely alive and a cohesive masterpiece.

[SCKOMS]

Originally Posted by neilum

I'll start by saying people who say you need to rev the E90 xM to have fun is just silly IMO. Some of the best cars I've driven need to be revved out to really go fast but there's a difference between truly going fast and having fun. Yes on the track you need to be on boil because the E90 M is more of a momentum car than the F80, but driving around having some fun? Come on... Car has plenty of power, it's not a Miata or an S2000.


I'll also keep this short but the E90 does the following better than the F80.

- Way better sound.
- More linear throttle.
- More linear power
- More balanced chassis
- Better dampened.
- Better overall balance. The E90 M's chassis and engine feel like they are 100% designed from the ground up to work together. The F80 feels like it has all the hardware needed to go fast, but lacks integration of all the systems. It feels more out of sync and "thrown together" without feeling balanced as a whole.
- Smaller in size physically. The F80 has a higher belt line, and despite weighing less than the E90 it feels bigger when you drive it.
- E90 is easier to drive and get closer to its limits. It's more approachable. The F80 is faster yes but put the average driver in it and they won't get close to it's limits.
- E90 is more progressive. Because it is N/A and has much better overall balance the car feels easier to control and more natural.
- Steering feel

Those are my thoughts after owning both. The F80 is a good car, and E90 M is a great one despite all of the easy surface level internet BS you'll read about the E90 saying its heavy, and has no torque. Ok, sure, whatever the internet says!!! ; )


E90 has its flaws too no doubt. It gets crappy gas mileage, is not as fast on paper, looks a bit dated, interior is simple but not Merc nice and may not be noticed by as many people if you care about such things.

I also realize the F80 has vastly improved over the years from the original release which was a complete mess full of bugs and honestly terrible OEM tuning to the comp, to the CS etc. I think my point stands though, the F80 didn't live up to the bar set by its predecessors IMO at the end of the day.

E90 is memorable and a way more visceral experience. I don't remember the F80 being .5 seconds faster at all. I do remember however feeling like my car being completely alive and a cohesive masterpiece.

well written and informative .....thanks!

[SYT_Shadow]

OP, I have two E9Xs and a F80 CS

The CS is a great car, however, for street use I don't think it can compete against a E9X.

The F8X generation in general is great, it has better tech stuff, is appreciable faster on track and is generally newer.
However, the E9X generation has significantly better steering and much, much better sound. An E9X with a loudish exhaust and xpipe plus something like the Karbonius intake is, IMO, just about the perfect car to enjoy driving if you are not worried about the stopwatch.

Particularly if you are looking at convertibles I find the F8X an even bigger miss. The E93 is still pretty fast and experiencing the sound without a roof does not get old quickly.

Supercharging with a known, reliable company like ESS is quite safe. I personally do not supercharge cars because I find redlining a couple gears in a E9X to easily land you in jail so I do not need to go any faster on the street. Also, I do not want to lose the intake sound which I really enjoy and that is definitely amplified using a Karbonius intake.

I've driven many vehicles. 750hp M5 competition, GT3s of all eras, you name it. I don't enjoy anything as much as I enjoy the E9X generation M3.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by neilum

I'll start by saying people who say you need to rev the E90 xM to have fun is just silly IMO. Some of the best cars I've driven need to be revved out to really go fast but there's a difference between truly going fast and having fun. Yes on the track you need to be on boil because the E90 M is more of a momentum car than the F80, but driving around having some fun? Come on... Car has plenty of power, it's not a Miata or an S2000.
.

Completely agree. I am still waiting patiently to find all these people who accelerate at a pace the E9X cannot handle on the street... any day now. Other than one lunatic with a 1100hp GT-R that did 170mph on an onramp in Texas I don't find the E9X lacking in any performance measure.

The E9X is geared very short, so on the highway in 6th on the manual E92 or 7th in the DCT E90 you find they pull very nicely in that gear. Meanwhile, the 'torque monster' F80 CS ends up getting downshifted to pass due to longer gearing.

Unless you are frequently doing highway pulls with other people, something I don't advise in general, the E9X feels plenty powerful. You do not need to 'rev to 8k' to go buy bread in the morning.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

This: https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1637691

I copied my post there to rile them up