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      12-21-2013, 10:21 AM   #23
AirbusPilot
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Originally Posted by sunsweet View Post
You guys laugh but a formula 1 racing inspired V8 in the E92 followed by a 3 series (335is) inspired engine in the F8x which do you think is going to be a sought after car+engine combination in 10-15 years ? Yes better believe it.
Neither will ever be a collectible vehicle. EAS (supposedly) just sold a low mileage E39 M5 for somewhere in the $7X,XXX range. Great, if true, but as soon as the new owner drives it, the "value" of that car will plummet rapidly. And even if it really sold for that amount, it still lost money from when the original buyer bought it.

There are just too many of these cars made to ever qualify as collectible, i.e. worth more than what was originally paid new.

I'm guessing the E46 M3 guys tried to make the same argument, only to be proven very wrong.

I still want one, however.
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      12-21-2013, 11:22 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by AirbusPilot View Post
Ha! PHX.
Haha awesome! Don't worry though I'm a 3rd lister!! Hopefully this east/west nonsense will be put to rest here soon.
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      12-21-2013, 11:57 AM   #25
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The dealer might be just making room for year end deals / special offers / financing deals. Hey, just trying to give them the benefit of doubt..
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      12-21-2013, 12:14 PM   #26
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So, they have to raise the cost of it to offset the ongoing costs of keeping it on their lot. It's owned by the bank, they're financing it as well. The longer it sits, the smaller their margins get at which point in time they need to offload it and mitigate further loss or jack the price up to create more margin for them to profit off of.


Go in there, lowball them on what the original price is and they'll play ball. Especially when they're faced with having to pay tax on at the beginning of January.

Good Luck. Bring your own highlighter.
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      12-21-2013, 12:16 PM   #27
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Shit, I just picked up a CPO 1 owner 2010 E92 M3 fully optioned for $43,000 that has 45k miles on it.
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      12-21-2013, 12:30 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AirbusPilot View Post
It's a used 11' model. Comp and DCT. No nav, which was really hanging me up..until they jacked the price up that high. The car is now seriously overpriced.
Link?
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      12-21-2013, 01:38 PM   #29
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CarMax, wont be the best price and wont be the worst.
They have fair prices bottom line.
I hate buying from dealers.
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      12-21-2013, 01:48 PM   #30
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Wait until 31 Dec and then attack!
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      12-21-2013, 06:25 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashman
Quote:
Originally Posted by elitex View Post
Agreed but he compared both engines with manufacturers marketing campaign.
Actually he didn't. He selected only those excerpts from the marketing material that suited his argument. I am a fan of our cars but I am not about to slam the M4 because I'm positive most here will be eating their words when it actually comes out.

Here is the full official release. Take from it what you will.

ENGINE
•3.0L inline 6 cylinder engine (S55) with two mono-scroll turbochargers◦3,027 cc (compare to 2,979 cc of N55)
◦89.6mm bore / 80mm stroke over-square (compare to 84mm bore / 89.6mm stroke under-square of N55)
◦Derived from N55 engine
◦Direct Injection
◦VALVETRONIC
◦Double-VANOS
◦closed-decked crankcase (4.4 lbs / 2kg lighter)
◦twin-wire arc-spray coating (instead of liners) in cylinder bores reduce engine weight
◦20 lbs lighter than V8 S65 engine (from E90/E92 M3)
•430 HP (approximately) from around 5000-7300 RPM "far beyond" 369+ LB-FT (500 Nm) from under 2000 RPM to over 5000 RPM
•See Dyno Chart
•Slightly above 7500 RPM redline

TURBOS
•Two Mitsubishi mono-scroll turbochargers
•18.1 PSI / 1.25 BAR max peak
•Pre-tensioned in Sport and Sport+ modes (keep spinning at a high rate of speed even after throttle lift-off, for ultra quick response - more details)
•Impulse charging for optimized responsiveness
•Flow-enhanced manifolds
•Electric wastegate actuator

COOLING
•Double-flow oil recirculation pumps
•Turbocharger suction system
•Main radiator plus additional radiators for the high- and low-temperature circuits, turbocharger and transmission
•Large indirect intercooler (sits atop engine, necessitating hood bulge)
•Low-weight magnesium oil sump (2.2 lbs / 1kg lighter)
•Temperature-stabilizing electric water pump

WEIGHT
•Under 3,306 lb (1500kg) weight ◦this figure is without driver and with 90% fuel
◦BMW clarifies that "the new model is now around 80 kilograms [176 lbs] lighter than a comparably equipped predecessor model"
◦compare to E46 M3 at ~3,400 lb curb weight
◦compare to E92 M3 at ~3,600 lb curb weight
◦compare to C63 AMG at ~3,900 lb curb weight
◦compare to RS5 at ~4,000 lb curb weight
•~ 7.68 lb/hp power to weight ◦compare to E92 M3 at 8.7
◦compare to C63 AMG at 8.7
◦compare to RS5 at 9.0
◦compare to E46 M3 at 10.25
•Fuel consumption and emissions reduction of 25%

CARBON FIBER CONSTRUCTION / BODY
•CFRP drive shaft (tested for speeds up to 205 MPH)◦40% weight savings over previous M3
◦increased stiffness
◦reduced rotating mass for better acceleration and throttle response
•CFRP roof for both M3 and M4◦saves 11 pounds (5kg) on M3
◦saves more than 13.2 pounds (6kg) on M4
•CFRP roof bow
•Carbon fiber trunk for M4 (11 pounds (5kg) weight savings)
•CFRP front strut brace standard (weighs just 3.3 pounds (1.5 kg))
•Front fenders and hood made from aluminum

TRANSMISSION
•Standard 6 speed manual transmission ◦automatic throttle blips on downshift
◦more compact and quieter than predecessor E90/E92 M3 6 speed
◦26.4 pounds (12kg) lighter
◦carbon fiber friction linings in synchroniser rings
◦dry sump lubrication

•Optional 7 speed M DCT (double clutch transmission) with launch control
•Active M Differential with constantly variable locking (a la M5/M6), from 0 to 100 percent
•Forged crankshaft

STEERING
•Entirely new electric power steering (EPS) unit, built by ZF
•Specially tuned for M3/M4
•Servotronic function electronically adjusts the level of steering assistance
•Three modes: Comfort, Sport, Sport+
•Will not compensate for understeer, oversteer, coarse road surface. Motor will not help unwind the steering wheel and it will self-center by by natural forces

SUSPENSION / CHASSIS
•Optional EDC Adaptive M suspension (with Comfort, Sport, Sport+ modes)
•CFRP front strut brace
•Double-joint spring strut front axle (saves 11 pounds)
•New five-link rear axle made from forged aluminum (saves 6.6 pounds)
•Aluminum suspension
•Aluminium stiffening plate
•Rear axle subframe fixed directly to body (bolted joints between the axle subframe and the body sills, without use of elastic rubber elements).

WHEELS / BRAKES
•18 and 19 inch options will be available
•Lightweight forged wheels standard
•Staggered tire sizes - 255/35 ZR front and 275/35 ZR rear
•Prototypes fitted with Michelin Pilot Sport tires, but other tire brands will be certified as well
•M compound brakes standard (in blue)◦four piston front / two piston rear
•M carbon ceramic brakes optional (in gold)◦six piston front / four piston rear

EXHAUST
•Exhaust features electrically controlled flaps just before rear silencer to minimize exhaust back-pressure as well as giving precise feedback on engine load.◦When closed, flow is forced into and laterally across the silencer; when open, flow is more directly through the narrow part of the silencer.

•Catalysts with metal substrate (less restrictive than ceramic)
•Exhaust always exits all four tail pipes

AERO
•50:50 weight distribution
•Air Curtain
•M gills with integrated Air Breather behind front wheels

ACTIVE SOUND
•Live amplification of the S55 engine's natural sounds into the passenger cabin (via stereo speakers)
•No artificially generated sound or pre-recorded track being played

MISC
•The M3/M4 standalone components amounts to roughly 50 per cent. This includes body, chassis and powertrain components.
•Llithium-ion starter battery under consideration.
•M3 and M4 to be introduced together (at Detroit NAIAS 2014 in January).
•M3 and M4 developed with help of BMW race car drivers Bruno Spengler and Timo Glock's participation in extensive testing and set- up runs on the Nürburgring-Nordschleife circuit, focusing on assessment of the cars’ suspension, tyres and all elements of the powertrain.


Agreed. I am not saying that M4 won't be impressive. I know I want one, and will probably get one.

Specs are impressive but it still is based off of the N55 just like the S63 which is based off of the N63.

All I am saying is that there are valid points on both sides.

OP, wanna buy my 13 M3? 7.6k miles. All of the options except extended leather and cold weather.
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      12-21-2013, 06:54 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashman View Post
Actually he didn't. He selected only those excerpts from the marketing material that suited his argument. I am a fan of our cars but I am not about to slam the M4 because I'm positive most here will be eating their words when it actually comes out.

Here is the full official release. Take from it what you will.

ENGINE
•3.0L inline 6 cylinder engine (S55) with two mono-scroll turbochargers◦3,027 cc (compare to 2,979 cc of N55)
◦89.6mm bore / 80mm stroke over-square (compare to 84mm bore / 89.6mm stroke under-square of N55)
◦Derived from N55 engine
◦Direct Injection
◦VALVETRONIC
◦Double-VANOS
◦closed-decked crankcase (4.4 lbs / 2kg lighter)
◦twin-wire arc-spray coating (instead of liners) in cylinder bores reduce engine weight
◦20 lbs lighter than V8 S65 engine (from E90/E92 M3)
•430 HP (approximately) from around 5000-7300 RPM "far beyond" 369+ LB-FT (500 Nm) from under 2000 RPM to over 5000 RPM
•See Dyno Chart
•Slightly above 7500 RPM redline

TURBOS
•Two Mitsubishi mono-scroll turbochargers
•18.1 PSI / 1.25 BAR max peak
•Pre-tensioned in Sport and Sport+ modes (keep spinning at a high rate of speed even after throttle lift-off, for ultra quick response - more details)
•Impulse charging for optimized responsiveness
•Flow-enhanced manifolds
•Electric wastegate actuator

COOLING
•Double-flow oil recirculation pumps
•Turbocharger suction system
•Main radiator plus additional radiators for the high- and low-temperature circuits, turbocharger and transmission
•Large indirect intercooler (sits atop engine, necessitating hood bulge)
•Low-weight magnesium oil sump (2.2 lbs / 1kg lighter)
•Temperature-stabilizing electric water pump

WEIGHT
•Under 3,306 lb (1500kg) weight ◦this figure is without driver and with 90% fuel
◦BMW clarifies that "the new model is now around 80 kilograms [176 lbs] lighter than a comparably equipped predecessor model"
◦compare to E46 M3 at ~3,400 lb curb weight
◦compare to E92 M3 at ~3,600 lb curb weight
◦compare to C63 AMG at ~3,900 lb curb weight
◦compare to RS5 at ~4,000 lb curb weight
•~ 7.68 lb/hp power to weight ◦compare to E92 M3 at 8.7
◦compare to C63 AMG at 8.7
◦compare to RS5 at 9.0
◦compare to E46 M3 at 10.25
•Fuel consumption and emissions reduction of 25%

CARBON FIBER CONSTRUCTION / BODY
•CFRP drive shaft (tested for speeds up to 205 MPH)◦40% weight savings over previous M3
◦increased stiffness
◦reduced rotating mass for better acceleration and throttle response
•CFRP roof for both M3 and M4◦saves 11 pounds (5kg) on M3
◦saves more than 13.2 pounds (6kg) on M4
•CFRP roof bow
•Carbon fiber trunk for M4 (11 pounds (5kg) weight savings)
•CFRP front strut brace standard (weighs just 3.3 pounds (1.5 kg))
•Front fenders and hood made from aluminum

TRANSMISSION
•Standard 6 speed manual transmission ◦automatic throttle blips on downshift
◦more compact and quieter than predecessor E90/E92 M3 6 speed
◦26.4 pounds (12kg) lighter
◦carbon fiber friction linings in synchroniser rings
◦dry sump lubrication

•Optional 7 speed M DCT (double clutch transmission) with launch control
•Active M Differential with constantly variable locking (a la M5/M6), from 0 to 100 percent
•Forged crankshaft

STEERING
•Entirely new electric power steering (EPS) unit, built by ZF
•Specially tuned for M3/M4
•Servotronic function electronically adjusts the level of steering assistance
•Three modes: Comfort, Sport, Sport+
•Will not compensate for understeer, oversteer, coarse road surface. Motor will not help unwind the steering wheel and it will self-center by by natural forces

SUSPENSION / CHASSIS
•Optional EDC Adaptive M suspension (with Comfort, Sport, Sport+ modes)
•CFRP front strut brace
•Double-joint spring strut front axle (saves 11 pounds)
•New five-link rear axle made from forged aluminum (saves 6.6 pounds)
•Aluminum suspension
•Aluminium stiffening plate
•Rear axle subframe fixed directly to body (bolted joints between the axle subframe and the body sills, without use of elastic rubber elements).

WHEELS / BRAKES
•18 and 19 inch options will be available
•Lightweight forged wheels standard
•Staggered tire sizes - 255/35 ZR front and 275/35 ZR rear
•Prototypes fitted with Michelin Pilot Sport tires, but other tire brands will be certified as well
•M compound brakes standard (in blue)◦four piston front / two piston rear
•M carbon ceramic brakes optional (in gold)◦six piston front / four piston rear

EXHAUST
•Exhaust features electrically controlled flaps just before rear silencer to minimize exhaust back-pressure as well as giving precise feedback on engine load.◦When closed, flow is forced into and laterally across the silencer; when open, flow is more directly through the narrow part of the silencer.

•Catalysts with metal substrate (less restrictive than ceramic)
•Exhaust always exits all four tail pipes

AERO
•50:50 weight distribution
•Air Curtain
•M gills with integrated Air Breather behind front wheels

ACTIVE SOUND
•Live amplification of the S55 engine's natural sounds into the passenger cabin (via stereo speakers)
•No artificially generated sound or pre-recorded track being played

MISC
•The M3/M4 standalone components amounts to roughly 50 per cent. This includes body, chassis and powertrain components.
•Llithium-ion starter battery under consideration.
•M3 and M4 to be introduced together (at Detroit NAIAS 2014 in January).
•M3 and M4 developed with help of BMW race car drivers Bruno Spengler and Timo Glock's participation in extensive testing and set- up runs on the Nürburgring-Nordschleife circuit, focusing on assessment of the cars’ suspension, tyres and all elements of the powertrain.


That all great, and so is the fact that its apparently going to be faster than ours. You wont be able to buy it at MSRP for about a year, prices will be at new release prices. For example the Corvette is selling at 68 to 72k. MSRP was supposed to be 55k?? Everyone knows buying new is already a bad value, buying a new release is plain stupid. Sucks ballz
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      12-21-2013, 06:55 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashman View Post
Actually he didn't. He selected only those excerpts from the marketing material that suited his argument. I am a fan of our cars but I am not about to slam the M4 because I'm positive most here will be eating their words when it actually comes out.

Here is the full official release. Take from it what you will.

[/B]
If you had actually read the thread, you'd have noticed that all I said is the S65 was Formula 1 inspired then someone who didn't have a clue thought I was pulling something on him, so I referenced BMW's own description of the S65 V8 which more than backs up my statement. I then showed what BMW had to say about the S55 engine. But your statement on the other hand about "eating words" is pure BS speculation... idle words. Then again.. you're still in college..
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      12-21-2013, 08:39 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am Earl View Post
I really don't like airbus. Its like the turbo engine vs NA. I like old school thats why md-80 or older 737s are my favorite. How do you guys fly with a joystick on the left hand anyways? What if you are right handed?

I'm no real pilot but have spent about 10+ years in flight sims with good addons (like PMDG), so please dont take what I said seriously I'd love to sit on your jump seat, never been to a real cockpit!

Oh and I am really scared of flying, I know exactly how many steps are involved flying a jetliner and what pilots have to go through and how many things can easily go wrong. So i try to not to fly as much as i can, i know its embarrasing.

You should try flying the stadium visual 29 or la guardia expressway 31 for some nice old school visual landing. I love doing those in my 737-800.
You'd be surprised at how much a Boeing and an Airbus are alike. The biggest difference is the AB is fly by wire with a control stick, versus the old truck steering wheel Boeings still use. I find the control stick far easier to fly.

I've flown the stadium visual and the LGA approach. I absolutely love to hand fly the bus.
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      12-21-2013, 09:15 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grantmax View Post
Formula 1 racing inspired? That's a new one on me.

The F8x M3 is gonna be a torque monster. That engine pushes the boundaries of reason. 18.1 psi? That sounds good. I'll have that.
The S65 can trace it's lineage to the late-90s williams F1 V12. While the M5's V10 bore a greater resemblance, the S65 isn't far away.
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      12-21-2013, 10:22 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Route 16 View Post
Link?
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...Index=11&Log=0
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      12-21-2013, 10:56 PM   #37
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That's a lot of miles. What was the original price?
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      12-21-2013, 11:05 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashman View Post
Actually he didn't. He selected only those excerpts from the marketing material that suited his argument. I am a fan of our cars but I am not about to slam the M4 because I'm positive most here will be eating their words when it actually comes out.

Here is the full official release. Take from it what you will.
They were talking engines, so he quoted the relevant parts. The new engine is literally the least interesting thing on that list, I think the new manual transmission and light carbon construction will be the real highlights of this generation.

Thanks for posting this, though, I wasn't aware of the final boost number for the new engine. It seems they reinforced the N55 engine and added a bunch more cooling so as to maintain that 18psi. I think procede was able to reach that number on their n55, but it took methanol and race fuel and all sorts of other crap, and even then it dropped to like 12 by the time it reached redline. I'm ever more convinced the tuning on the new engine won't give the huge results everyone is expecting (I've already seen multiple claims of 100 extra HP, come on ), especially after lap or two to let that heat soak in.

It will be a better streetcar for sure, with more torque to address all the complainers and an awesome new interior. I doubt it will be a much better performance car (although it will be better there too), certainly nothing on the scale of E46 to E92. I can't wait to snatch up an F80 when the LCI rolls around in a few years. By then, I'll be running out of warranty and will be approaching 50,000 miles on mine, the perfect excuse to replace the bearings and slap on a supercharger.

Last edited by Koldun; 12-21-2013 at 11:24 PM..
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      12-22-2013, 05:20 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AirbusPilot View Post
I've been watching a certain M3 at a dealer the last few weeks, waiting until the end of the year to make an offer.

What do they do when it still hasn't sold?

Why, they raised their price $5,000!

I dunno, I'm an economics minor, and I don't remember the S&D curves working that way in regards to price.

I'll just skip it.
Why not just make them an offer anyways, all they can say is no
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      12-22-2013, 10:44 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrytroop22 View Post
That's a lot of miles. What was the original price?
$43,900.

I found another one with less miles and nav. We're not far apart on price, but the original owner replaced the comp wheels with some black 5 star 20" wheels, and looking at the pics, looks like it has aftermarket brakes. I'm trying to get more info on those items (The car is at a dealer now). But if I were to buy it, I would want to put the original comp wheels back on. And that won't be cheap.
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      12-22-2013, 04:27 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AirbusPilot View Post
$43,900.

I found another one with less miles and nav. We're not far apart on price, but the original owner replaced the comp wheels with some black 5 star 20" wheels, and looking at the pics, looks like it has aftermarket brakes. I'm trying to get more info on those items (The car is at a dealer now). But if I were to buy it, I would want to put the original comp wheels back on. And that won't be cheap.
You probably know this but: lightly used ZCP wheels with new / newer rubber go for about $2500 on here. You might be able to get close to that out of the 20"s on the car now unless they are total garbage
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      12-22-2013, 05:25 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbus///m3 View Post
Typical dealer shenanigans. They never cease to amaze me.

Haha like your screen name!! Where do you fly out of? I'm a PHL based little bus guy.
Woo PHL! I'll notice if I'm ever on your flight if m3-like maneuvers ever come about kidding of course.. I know nothing about planes lol or flying them
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      12-23-2013, 10:56 AM   #43
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No nav = collectors car.
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      12-23-2013, 11:13 AM   #44
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It's a great tactic. People who has been watching it will buy once price drop back to its original price or even $500 below.
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