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      01-20-2021, 03:32 PM   #1233
Z K
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Assimilator1 View Post
Just because it wears more doesn't mean it is less durable.
Err that's contradictory , although I pretty much agree with the rest of what your saying.
That said, even with the harder bearings we don't seem to be seeing more scored cranks, so far.
It makes sense as the bearings are made to be softer so it will wear rather than damage the crankshaft. As it wears, it increases clearance as well. As the BE bearing thread mentioned, the softer bearings is "doing it's job" of protecting the crankshaft.

When my bearings came out, they had a lot of wear with copper showing on many of them. I posted pictures in the rod bearing thread. I'm glad I had it done - now I don't have to worry about it.

A rod bearing job is a small price for 12 years of problem free ownership.
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      01-20-2021, 08:23 PM   #1234
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It makes sense as the bearings are made to be softer so it will wear rather than damage the crankshaft.
Agreed, that wasn't what I was contesting
Also agreed about worth getting it done, which is why I will be in the next month or so.
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Does oil analysis work for finding wearing rod bearings? Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65.
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      01-20-2021, 08:59 PM   #1235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Assimilator1 View Post
Just because it wears more doesn't mean it is less durable.
Err that's contradictory , although I pretty much agree with the rest of what your saying.
That said, even with the harder bearings we don't seem to be seeing more scored cranks, so far.
It makes sense as the bearings are made to be softer so it will wear rather than damage the crankshaft. As it wears, it increases clearance as well. As the BE bearing thread mentioned, the softer bearings is "doing it's job" of protecting the crankshaft.

When my bearings came out, they had a lot of wear with copper showing on many of them. I posted pictures in the rod bearing thread. I'm glad I had it done - now I don't have to worry about it.

A rod bearing job is a small price for 12 years of problem free ownership.
The bearings DO NOT WEAR EVENLY AND INCREASE THE CLEARANCE. If copper is showing, the bearings were done. Kaput. Fooked.
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      01-20-2021, 09:19 PM   #1236
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Cheap insurance - but use the HPMO, not Euro stuff
I use their 5w50 10w60 blended 1:2
At temps above 60f, (fair weather car)
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      01-21-2021, 11:27 AM   #1237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scharbag View Post
The bearings DO NOT WEAR EVENLY AND INCREASE THE CLEARANCE. If copper is showing, the bearings were done. Kaput. Fooked.
Of course they don't wear evenly. Every BMW M engine rod bearing is worn unevenly when pulled out.

When the bearing wears, it will take the brunt of the wear instead of the crankshaft. That's what I mean when I say they "increase clearance" - it wears in to clearance the crankshaft of the debris or whatever is causing the wear. All the aftermarket increased clearance bearings use the softer lead/copper design rather than the newer BMW hard bearing design for this reason.
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      01-21-2021, 01:37 PM   #1238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Of course they don't wear evenly. Every BMW M engine rod bearing is worn unevenly when pulled out.

When the bearing wears, it will take the brunt of the wear instead of the crankshaft. That's what I mean when I say they "increase clearance" - it wears in to clearance the crankshaft of the debris or whatever is causing the wear. All the aftermarket increased clearance bearings use the softer lead/copper design rather than the newer BMW hard bearing design for this reason.
Not really.

Hydrodynamic bearings should not wear. Wear like we see on typical S65 is not normal.

What the softer Babbitt is good for is embedability. Particles will get smooshed into the Babbitt rather than scoring the crank. Lead/copper is better at embedding debris than tin/aluminum Babbitt.

Cheers,
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      02-02-2021, 11:53 AM   #1239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scharbag View Post
Not really.

Hydrodynamic bearings should not wear. Wear like we see on typical S65 is not normal.

What the softer Babbitt is good for is embedability. Particles will get smooshed into the Babbitt rather than scoring the crank. Lead/copper is better at embedding debris than tin/aluminum Babbitt.

Cheers,
Ok, I agree with that. I never said wear is normal. As you said, the bearing is taking the wear rather than scoring the crank.
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      02-09-2021, 06:56 AM   #1240
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Quote:
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Cheap insurance - but use the HPMO, not Euro stuff
Definitely don't use 15w50, that means the oil is thicker when cold (the last thing you want on an S65!), and thinner when hot.
If you're going to for a different grade oil a 5w-50 would be a better compromise, at least it's thinner when cold. Although there was some disadvantage with that grade oil, I can't remember for sure but I think it was that it shears down quicker?? Anyone recall?
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Does oil analysis work for finding wearing rod bearings? Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65.
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      02-25-2021, 01:00 PM   #1241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Assimilator1 View Post
Definitely don't use 15w50, that means the oil is thicker when cold (the last thing you want on an S65!), and thinner when hot.
If you're going to for a different grade oil a 5w-50 would be a better compromise, at least it's thinner when cold. Although there was some disadvantage with that grade oil, I can't remember for sure but I think it was that it shears down quicker?? Anyone recall?
Depends how cold. If one lives in Florida or Arizona, 15W50 is perfectly OK.
When temperature drops below 10f, or some -10c, that is when 15W50 lags behind. Above 32 or 0, perfectly OK.
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      02-25-2021, 02:16 PM   #1242
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No, I disagree with that, (excluding Florida/Arizona, I don't know for there), seeing as theirs often issues with oil flow anyway (with OEM bearings anyway), the last thing you want to do is go for a thicker cold grade rated oil, perhaps over 15-20C it doesn't make much difference, but around about freezing it certainly will.
What data are you referring to when you say it's ok at 0+C?
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      02-26-2021, 08:08 AM   #1243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Assimilator1 View Post
No, I disagree with that, (excluding Florida/Arizona, I don't know for there), seeing as theirs often issues with oil flow anyway (with OEM bearings anyway), the last thing you want to do is go for a thicker cold grade rated oil, perhaps over 15-20C it doesn't make much difference, but around about freezing it certainly will.
What data are you referring to when you say it's ok at 0+C?
Based on viscometric properties.
Here is one example between 0W40, 5W40 and 15W50:
Temp.-- 100C--- 40C---- 30C---- 20C---- 10C---- 0C----- -10C-- -20C
0W40SM- 14----- 78----- 118---- 189---- 322---- 590---- 1184-- 2642
5W40SM 14.90-- 100---- 161---- 273---- 502---- 1010--- 2266-- 5795
15W50SJ 18.00-- 120---- 190---- 320---- 579---- 1139--- 2480-- 6097
15W50SM 18.10-- 131---- 213---- 369---- 692---- 1424--- 3270-- 8576

As you see, flow at 0c compared to 5W40 depends a lot of specific oil. For example Mobil1 currently uses GTL in their formulation, and GTL has excellent cold flow properties.
I would say that health of bearings depends more on how hard is someone on engine before oil reaches operating temperature.
Shearing down will depend also on base stock composition of oils. If you take Mobil1, 5W50 has much more GTL and PAO than 15W50, and that is to limit shearing.
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      02-28-2021, 02:46 PM   #1244
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Interesting stuff, and interesting to see the small difference between those particular 5w40 and 15w50 even down to -20C!
Assuming (whatever those figures are) are linear, then at 0C the 15w50 is roughly 10% slower flowing, so even with a small difference like that I wouldn't want to use the 15w50 oil in an S65 in cold climates just because it makes a dubious situation worse (even if not by much).

Interesting about the Mobil 1 too, maybe that's why it's slightly faster flowing at the cold temperature end than the Castrol 10w60?

Re health of S65 OEM bearings, well they have exceptionally tight clearances for the oil grade they're spec'd at and the RPM and power they pull. All indications seem to point to that being the major factor to causing premature rod bearing wear.
Of course thrashing it from cold will certainly accelerate that! but presumably you don't believe that virtually all M3 owners do that? Or do you?
Also, many other cars with similar levels of abuse don't seem to suffer the same amount of rod bearing problems.
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Does oil analysis work for finding wearing rod bearings? Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65.
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      02-28-2021, 03:41 PM   #1245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Assimilator1 View Post
Interesting stuff, and interesting to see the small difference between those particular 5w40 and 15w50 even down to -20C!
Assuming (whatever those figures are) are linear, then at 0C the 15w50 is roughly 10% slower flowing, so even with a small difference like that I wouldn't want to use the 15w50 oil in an S65 in cold climates just because it makes a dubious situation worse (even if not by much).

Interesting about the Mobil 1 too, maybe that's why it's slightly faster flowing at the cold temperature end than the Castrol 10w60?

Re health of S65 OEM bearings, well they have exceptionally tight clearances for the oil grade they're spec'd at and the RPM and power they pull. All indications seem to point to that being the major factor to causing premature rod bearing wear.
Of course thrashing it from cold will certainly accelerate that! but presumably you don't believe that virtually all M3 owners do that? Or do you?
Also, many other cars with similar levels of abuse don't seem to suffer the same amount of rod bearing problems.
Mobil1 uses more GTL base stock. Both GTL and PAO have very good cold properties. Combining both, like Mobil1 does, creates better flow.
But, oil flow is not everything. Add esters, like Mobil1 does, and they will stick for a long time on surfaces. Ester, unlike other base stocks, is polar. That is why Redline has such good cold properties regardless whether it is 0W or 15W.
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      03-10-2021, 11:23 PM   #1246
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Just noticed that HTHS for M1 ESP formula 0w40 is 3.53. Isn't this lower than what used to be 2 years ago? Might explain why it no longer carries LL01 specification.
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      03-11-2021, 11:56 AM   #1247
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Quote:
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Just noticed that HTHS for M1 ESP formula 0w40 is 3.53. Isn't this lower than what used to be 2 years ago? Might explain why it no longer carries LL01 specification.
ESP is different than FS.
FS has 3.6. Reason for dropping LL01 is higher oxidation of 0W oils that have HTHS above 3.5.
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