Was talking with a 20+yr motorsport vet who referred to F8X as soul-less

[Montaver]

The F8x has plenty of character in my opinion. Its hard edged, spiky, aggressive, and massively capable. Henry Catchpole did a good review of the M4 Compeition pack for Carfection which captures the essence of it well. The e9x is a bit of a softie in comparison. My main observation with the short drive I had in an f8x is it feels like a 'big' car, which makes it seem less chuck able down a backroad. With more seat time I'd probably adjust though. I'd quite happily own one in a few years when the early depreciation is out of the way.

[spazzyfry123]

I think they are a great car; especially for a daily drive. I feel a bit more connected with the E9x cars and would prefer it for a weekend romper. As an only car to do it all, I think you can't go wrong with the F8x.


BUT, considering that I could buy two E9x cars for what it costs to get a single F8x car...

[IamFODI]

Drove an F80 ZCP before buying my E90.

If you pay attention, there's no way to deny that the F80 feels next-generation in every way. More capable, more refined, more varied in its talents, much better ergonomically. The driver feedback isn't as strong, but there's a better ratio of signal to noise. Certain quirks of the E9x, like the slow-reacting diff, just aren't there. And holy crap is the driving position better. So yeah, by most measures, the F8x is a better car. It just is. That's why they released it.

What it isn't is more fun. Its throttle response, sound, and steering drag it down just enough that it's not convincing vs. the E9x in this respect.

I personally don't see the point of a car like this except to thrill. I can imagine someone arguing that the F8x is a better thriller because it's more capable and more usable, but even from that perspective it doesn't seem better by enough to justify the price difference. It seems much harder to argue the F8x is more thrilling per se. The real argument for it is that it does non-thrilling things better. How much you care about that stuff is up to you.

[SYT_Shadow]

I've driven the M2/3/4 F8X generation on track. I have a decent amount of track experience in the M4 GTS as well

The current M generation has plenty of soul when viewed vs its current competition. It is, as always, the most track worthy of all of them. If I had to buy an M style car now I would get one without second thoughts.

When compared vs the E9X it runs into some issues as the E9X has very nice steering and glorious throttle response.

It also runs a very similar chassis vs the F8x (evident to anyone who has compared both on a lift) which doesn't allow for the massive leap from the E46 to E9X.

[GORDON.M3]

My friend owned an M4 GTS and a heavily modified E92 M3. Ended up selling the M4 GTS and kept the E92 M3. When I asked "why?" his exact words were, "M4 GTS sucks".
Then he bought a with 991.2 GT3 with the proper 4.0 motor, not the "catch on fire 3.8".

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by GORDON.M3

My friend owned an M4 GTS and a heavily modified E92 M3. Ended up selling the M4 GTS and kept the E92 M3. When I asked "why?" his exact words were, "M4 GTS sucks".
Then he bought a with 991.2 GT3 with the proper 4.0 motor, not the "catch on fire 3.8".

i think the m4 gts missed the mark. the m4 cs should have been the competition package... but not for a ridiculous markup. the prices they want for these cars at the [lower] level they compete at is insane.

i don't care for the way the m4 makes me feel. the performance is there, no doubt about that. its faster than the e9x m cars right out of the box. the cars simply have a different attitude than i prefer. that being said, i'd love to daily drive a loaded f80 m3. it would be a great car for that. but the e92 just delivers that feeling of motorsport that i crave when i want to interact with a car.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by GORDON.M3

My friend owned an M4 GTS and a heavily modified E92 M3. Ended up selling the M4 GTS and kept the E92 M3. When I asked "why?" his exact words were, "M4 GTS sucks".
Then he bought a with 991.2 GT3 with the proper 4.0 motor, not the "catch on fire 3.8".

I heard the 4.0s were also the catch on fire versions. We are talking about Porsche after all : puke:

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

i think the m4 gts missed the mark. the m4 cs should have been the competition package... but not for a ridiculous markup. the prices they want for these cars at the [lower] level they compete at is insane.

i don't care for the way the m4 makes me feel. the performance is there, no doubt about that. its faster than the e9x m cars right out of the box. the cars simply have a different attitude than i prefer. that being said, i'd love to daily drive a loaded f80 m3. it would be a great car for that. but the e92 just delivers that feeling of motorsport that i crave when i want to interact with a car.

I don't think the CS is overpriced.

We live in an age where normal Cayman S's go for 100k. In that light I find the M3 CS is pretty cheap

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I don't think the CS is overpriced.

We live in an age where normal Cayman S's go for 100k. In that light I find the M3 CS is pretty cheap

sure. i don't really disagree.
thing is, you can go to any porsche dealer and order a cayman S the way you want it and not get completely bent over.
if you go to the bmw dealer, some schmuck already specd the m4 cs and you'll be lucky not to pay a ridiculous "market adjustment" markup. bmw seems to make cars unnecessarily scarce at a level of performance that doesn't warrant the exclusivity or the usual price hike.

[cjm41]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

sure. i don't really disagree.
thing is, you can go to any porsche dealer and order a cayman S the way you want it and not get completely bent over.
if you go to the bmw dealer, some schmuck already specd the m4 cs and you'll be lucky not to pay a ridiculous "market adjustment" markup. bmw seems to make cars unnecessarily scarce at a level of performance that doesn't warrant the exclusivity or the usual price hike.

If people stop paying these dumb market adjustments, bmw will stop doing it. Anyone who pays a arbitrary dealership markup on a car is a fool.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by cjm41

If people stop paying these dumb market adjustments, bmw will stop doing it. Anyone who pays a arbitrary dealership markup on a car is a fool.

yea, i'm not sure where the line is on what real demand is... a porsche gt3 allocation is always hard to get when the newest iteration comes about. same with the gt3rs and the gt2rs. porsche could easily ask $20k more per car and the demand would still exist. i think there is an actual market scarcity for those cars.

now cars like the focus RS- awesome car to compete with the golf r, civic r, subaru sti, and maybe a hyndai turbo somethingerother. ford dealers essentially made that car go extinct by literally bumping it into the next monetary category with $10k markups. what a shame, it was such a cool car. that stuff doesn't happen as easily in the upper tiers of performance cars.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

sure. i don't really disagree.
thing is, you can go to any porsche dealer and order a cayman S the way you want it and not get completely bent over.
if you go to the bmw dealer, some schmuck already specd the m4 cs and you'll be lucky not to pay a ridiculous "market adjustment" markup. bmw seems to make cars unnecessarily scarce at a level of performance that doesn't warrant the exclusivity or the usual price hike.

I'm with ya, although the only CS I've seen at a dealer was going for exactly what bmw requests. bmw of ridgefield has a m3 cs which is at list price

In general terms I abhor 'market adjustments'. It is an insult to people's intelligence.

[roastbeef]

My local dealer had a $10k markup I believe, but Orange County, CA is full of nonsense like this.

[cjm41]

[QUOTE=SYT_Shadow;24161534]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

In general terms I abhor 'market adjustments'. It is an insult to people's intelligence.

Yes! I would think that while I'm filling out the paperwork for a car I agreed to pay a "market adjustment" on, everyone in the dealership would be hysterical laughing at me in another room.

I can hardly buy something that I saw on sale last week and isn't this week. And I'm not poor, I just hate feeling like someone is pulling one over on me. I'd be so embarrassed to pay a market adjustment. There is NOTHING on this planet I need so badly I'd be willing to be made a fool of for.

just goes to show that having 100k to spend on a car doesn't make one intelligent.

[JackieChiles]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I don't think the CS is overpriced.

We live in an age where normal Cayman S's go for 100k. In that light I find the M3 CS is pretty cheap

Agree to disagree.

The cayman handles and steers in another stratosphere to the m cars.

Neither engine is special in my opinion.

The gt4 is 10x the sports car of a cs.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by JackieChiles

Agree to disagree.

The cayman handles and steers in another stratosphere to the m cars.

Neither engine is special in my opinion.

The gt4 is 10x the sports car of a cs.

Neither engine may be special but there's a longstanding truth in cars: V12>V10>V8>6 cyl>4 cyl.

So while a turbo 6 cylinder sounds like ass, it is heavenly music compared to whatever noises a turbo 4 cylinder can produce.

Having actually driven a highly modded GT4 on track I'll take the E9X any day. In fact I do, and use it to spank all those 'pure sportscars'. One track day after another.
As you have mentioned steering: the steering in the GT4 is absolute shit, seize, caca, merda compared to the E9X. It may be good electric power steering, which is kind of like saying the tallest midget, the strongest baby... you get the picture
Having also driven the M4 GTS that same day I couldn't say which is better or worse in terms of steering feel. It would be like splitting hairs. Is one of them a 2 out of 10 while the other is a 3 out of 10? Don't know, don't care

I hope you can soon save up enough money to get one of those 4 cylinder pure sports cars. I am far from Texas but I am quite sure there are plenty of M people over there who are willing to teach others a thing or two at a track day, the natural environment of those thoroughbred *cough* 4 cylinder sports machines. Where all that superior handling comes into play!

Maybe the reason why Porsche drivers are so dreadfully slow is that they can't lift their eyes off the excel sheets where weight, power, weight distribution etc etc are and learn how to drive their supposedly superior machines.

If you start a gofundme page please pm the link, I will be happy to contribute

[GORDON.M3]

Originally Posted by JackieChiles

Agree to disagree.

The cayman handles and steers in another stratosphere to the m cars.

Neither engine is special in my opinion.

The gt4 is 10x the sports car of a cs.

I would take the GT4 also, but it just sucks to lose the practicality of having a proper trunk, fold down seats and 3 passengers.

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I heard the 4.0s were also the catch on fire versions. We are talking about Porsche after all : puke:

the 4.0 is the benchmark, I haven't heard about too many cases of it catching on fire but the 3.8L suffers from those premature failing finger followers.
After driving the 4.0, it is so much damn better than the 3.8.

[JackieChiles]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Neither engine may be special but there's a longstanding truth in cars: V12>V10>V8>6 cyl>4 cyl.

So while a turbo 6 cylinder sounds like ass, it is heavenly music compared to whatever noises a turbo 4 cylinder can produce.

Having actually driven a highly modded GT4 on track I'll take the E9X any day. In fact I do, and use it to spank all those 'pure sportscars'. One track day after another.
As you have mentioned steering: the steering in the GT4 is absolute shit, seize, caca, merda compared to the E9X. It may be good electric power steering, which is kind of like saying the tallest midget, the strongest baby... you get the picture
Having also driven the M4 GTS that same day I couldn't say which is better or worse in terms of steering feel. It would be like splitting hairs. Is one of them a 2 out of 10 while the other is a 3 out of 10? Don't know, don't care

I hope you can soon save up enough money to get one of those 4 cylinder pure sports cars. I am far from Texas but I am quite sure there are plenty of M people over there who are willing to teach others a thing or two at a track day, the natural environment of those thoroughbred *cough* 4 cylinder sports machines. Where all that superior handling comes into play!

Maybe the reason why Porsche drivers are so dreadfully slow is that they can't lift their eyes off the excel sheets where weight, power, weight distribution etc etc are and learn how to drive their supposedly superior machines.

If you start a gofundme page please pm the link, I will be happy to contribute

I think you need to re-evaluate how you communicate with other people, even if this is the internet. This is one of several posts where you are unnecessarily confrontational and attempt to be offensive for no reason that I have noticed, and I don’t post that often.

Re-read what I wrote to you, and your response and see if it seems reasonable to you. No reason to continue attempting to have a “discussion” with you.

Seriously, someone disagrees with you on cars and this is how you reply?

[cjm41]

Originally Posted by JackieChiles

I think you need to re-evaluate how you communicate with other people, even if this is the internet.

Seriously, someone disagrees with you on cars and this is how you reply?

Conversely, it's the internet... Could have been a lot worse... People threaten to kill each other on Twitter and end lifelong friendships on Facebook over politics. At least this is important shit, like cars

[JackieChiles]

Originally Posted by cjm41

Conversely, it's the internet... Could have been a lot worse... People threaten to kill each other on Twitter and end lifelong friendships on Facebook over politics. At least this is important shit, like cars

Haha so true. Strange times we live in

[IamFODI]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Neither engine may be special but there's a longstanding truth in cars: V12>V10>V8>6 cyl>4 cyl.

Depends what you value.

For me it's V12 > flat-plane crank V8* > flat-6 > I6 > V10 > cross-plane crank V8 > V6 > any 4-cyl.

* REAL flat-plane crank, not that Ford Voodoo hackjob

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Having actually driven a highly modded GT4 on track I'll take the E9X any day. In fact I do, and use it to spank all those 'pure sportscars'. One track day after another.

...

Maybe the reason why Porsche drivers are so dreadfully slow is that they can't lift their eyes off the excel sheets where weight, power, weight distribution etc etc are and learn how to drive their supposedly superior machines.

I bet it's just that they're older on average and few of them started tracking when they were young. Most people with the time and money to buy and track Porsches don't arrive at that point until later in life.

[Montaver]

There are some amazing sounding 4 pots, the supercharged 2ZEE in the Exige for example. The Honda K20A or F20C with an exhaust has such a ripping aggressive and angry note, I love it. The S65 sounds good for a cross plane crank V8, but it lacks the edge of the best V10's or Flat 6's. That's just my opinion though, in the same way not everyone likes the same music I don't think there are any governing number of cylinders and engine sound.